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The Tao of Rue Extraction

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Melodic Catastrophe said:
Awesome man! I'm glad that it worked out for ya.

I'm going to try the fumaric acid approach instead of vinegar as well. I love how the fumaric acid doesn't stink at all. Thanks for trying that out and the heads up that it works. I'd really like to see those crystals you're talking about. I wonder if you could get crystals from citric acid as well? Some more experiments need to be done, for sure.

WCC has kilos for cheap. Check the suppliers section for the link.
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LOL :d That's where i got my seeds from!

I started using fumaric acid with all my extractions back when i got a lb of it from that spice website 😉. That was long before it was widely known about on the nexus 8). I find it really the best acid to use for extractions, it being the most water soluble in my experience, and it being supposedly the most storage stable/heat stable salt. All my alkaloids end up as fumarates now, but with such beautiful hcl's, i may have to diversify a bit. :)

I tired to take pics, they came out kinda crappy. i'll post them anyway tho-






I feel its gonna be a nightmare filtering both of those jars, especially the basic one that koh is nasty stuff. any suggestions on how to go about filtering? I was thinking decant as much as possible, even still, everytime i try to use a coffe filter for these things it just gets clogged/breaks.
 
Wow, those things are chunky! Once I give it a shot I'll update the tek with the results.

Keep us posted on any other experiments that ya do. Nice work man :D
 
The Day Tripper said:
I feel its gonna be a nightmare filtering both of those jars, especially the basic one that koh is nasty stuff. any suggestions on how to go about filtering? I was thinking decant as much as possible, even still, everytime i try to use a coffe filter for these things it just gets clogged/breaks.
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You want to decant as much as possible and then rinse them with fresh water and decant again a couple of times. Each time you rinse it with ph neutral water it will lower the basic ph to safe handling levels.

Thanks for pointing this out, I'll update the tek with that as well so hopefully no one gets hurt in the future. The Gibran harmala tek shows this process nicely.

As far as the filtering goes once you have it ph neutral again, I use two funnels just like in the initial filtering stage and do the same thing. The only difference is that I stack two coffee filters together and that makes it a LOT less likely that you'll have a rip and all of your goodies go down the drain so to speak. When one gets clogged, I decant the remaining liquid to the next funnel/filter. If you had a clean tea before you based it, it should only take a total of 4 filters. (2 sets of 2) But that is just for 200g of seeds. I'm sure it would take a lot more if you used more seeds.

Something that seems to help as well is to put a tablespoon or something between the filter and funnel to keep the filter from clinging so much. That will help all the liquid drain without creating a vacuum in the funnel.

Or you could just go the Gibran route and instead of filtering, just get it ph neutral, decant as much as possible and dry them in a tray. The added benefit to that is you don't have to lose any yield due to the final alks getting stuck to the last filter.
 
Excellent tek :d

been trying the manske and its such a hassle

for that lye decanting i guess a wine decanter would be best

in any case, you might want to add a "dont try this at home" disclaimer just in case the average idiot tries this and gets hurt

otherwise this tek is almost perfect wiki material, you could add a few pictures more pictures of the dry crystals. Many people here get off on that (me too)
 
bindu said:
Excellent tek :d

been trying the manske and its such a hassle

for that lye decanting i guess a wine decanter would be best

in any case, you might want to add a "dont try this at home" disclaimer just in case the average idiot tries this and gets hurt

otherwise this tek is almost perfect wiki material, you could add a few pictures more pictures of the dry crystals. Many people here get off on that (me too)
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Thanks :D

I've never heard of a wine decanter but I haven't heard of a lot of things. I'll definitely have to look into it.

I'll definitely update it with a warning. I also need to add how to properly dispose of the basic leftovers. Thanks for the heads up on that and for the kudos.

I'll add some crystal porn soon. :D
 
plumsmooth said:
All my alkaloids end up as fumarates now,
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Awesome, do you know how to get Harmaline Fumarates then?
Thanks...
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That was referring to dmt fumarate mostly, and mescaline to an extent, but yes i had an impure harmala fuamarate salt a few weeks ago, that was nothing special, would not fully dissolve in water, but that's from impurities. There was no discernable difference between this, and the harmala fumarate solution i describe below. Which was made with very clean fb imho, and serves as a comparison to my previous impure salts.

Well, i just tried 100mg of the clean 2x fb'd and 1x mansked alkaloids i have just extracted. Yeild's so far are 1.87g white freebase. Anyway, i have yet to fully produce a salt of this fb and dry it out. However i took that 100mg of fb dissolved in a small volume of fumaric acid acidified water. Everything dissolved/salted after a min. I assume that that means i converted %100 of the alkloids into fumarates, and made them water soluble. Solution was visibly fluorescent, characteristic of harmala fumarate solutions ime.

I took this with about 25g non extracted vine equivalent worth of caapi brew from my forestrx 4x. Then i dissolved 85mg of my white spice fumarates. Took a walk to a nearby river, meditated and watched the water as the trip began to set in. Took a few tokes off my mflb vaporizer at this time to reduce nausea, and because i was in a state of mind cohesive with the herb at the time. About 10min later, visuals began to kick in, nausea set in, and i sat for a few minutes. I then decided to get up and possibly walk home, but a few steps and i began to gag, i knew the purge was coming, i was even thinking about it without even noticing a few minutes before. Really strange and I usually don't purge at home with 120mg of spice fumarates and more harmalas. Anyway, after a few gut projections, i felt about %1000 better, and like usually with me the visuals really kicked in almost instantaneously after purging. The trip continued to peak for a few minutes, then a gradual, nice decline on my way walking home. It was much shorter than my non-purging sessions and somehow more intense, but that's for obvious reasons (la purga). Overall a wonderful experience, and reminded me why i NEED to have a proportion of rue alkaloids in my brews most of the time. I still have caapi only sessions, but less frequently when i have rue.

I'm going to try to make some fumarates and water crystallize them after I'm done extracting, but it will be a few weeks possibly. Currently the extraction is stalled until i get my vacuum filtering setup. Ordered it a few days ago, when i realized it would literally take 25+ coffee filters to get through a lb worth of fb rue alkaloids in basic solution. That will really make things alot easier and efficient with manskes and basification filtering. Once i get that its game on for some harmala chemistry fun, and ill be sure to take pics and post my results.
 
Thanks for sharing,
could you possibly outline a Freebase to Fumarate conversion tech.
Thanks...
I'm sorry I got a little lost trying to decioher through the opening paragraph.
 
Take fumaric acid, i did not measure amount, and dissolve in warm water.

Take fb alkaloids, and drop them in a 1/4 full shot glass of normal water. They will float on the top.

slowly add fumaric acid saturated water previously described and stir. If all of the alkaloids do not dissolve after slight heating in microwave, then add small amounts of fumaric water until everything dissolves.

The point is to use as little extra fumaric acid water than necessary. This will keep excess fumaric acid out of your end product. Witch could possibly be washed away with acetone or isopropyl, if it behaves like mescaline and dmt fumarate.

From here, drink your solution, or evaporate it (have not tried yet, but I'm sure will work).

you should be left with possibly colored harmala fumarates as a salt, with as little extra fumaric acid in there as possible. Could throw off doses if you don't weigh it properly. Remember salts weigh more than fb, so slightly more fuamrates will be necessary for the same affects from fb.
 
Take a note of how many ml's you have. You'll take that same amount of fresh distilled water, boil it and saturate it with salt. Once it's completely saturated you want to filter it and add it to your alkaloid solution.
Click to expand...

My experience suggests that in terms of varying from the original Manske recipe,
that halving the salt halves the total yield of harmalas.

However, temperature seems not a factor when dealing with salt soubility.

Nevertheless, I would be doubly curious to see someone-elses side by side comparison to substantiate my belief.

Thanks...


P.S. I thought water temperature was a factor when dissolving salt, however my research suggests otherwise.

Though, it might make it easier to dissolve quicker, higher temperatures do not appear to foster greater salt holding volume...
 
I finally finished up my last extraction and cleaned up some other rue alks I had.

I performed two manskes on it.

The first I had approx 12oz of alk solution so I added 12oz of salt solution. I let the crystals form and filtered the solution. I based the alks and further reduced the filtered solution down to 12oz. There were a few little spikes here and there but mostly just some salt crystals once I filtered it.

Based on this little experiment I believe that this method gets out 90% or more of the alks, especially if adequate time is given to allow the harmala salt crystals to form undisturbed and completely.

I would like to perform some more tests where this is concerned but my circumstances won't allow it for a little while.
 
I notice that you guys are still using coffee filters and cotton balls... have you tried vacuum filtration through fast qualitative papers? I'm going to be getting my vac kit tomorrow (250mL side arm, Buchner assembly, 70 or 90mm disks, hand operated vacuum/pressurizer). I've been using similar papers at my job for the past few months, and one can easily achieve a gravimetric blank *from deionized water and water left exposed to the air for
 
I recently purchased a vacuum filtration apparatus to finish my harmala a/b/manske. It indeed made all the hardest parts of the extraction soo much easier, especially with basic water that is hard to work with. I filtered a whole 6g+ of harmala hcl's with one fast qualitative filter paper, prob would have taken at least 2-3 coffee filters to do that, and more would have been lost to the filter paper.

Anyone serious (and lazy :lol:) about extractions really should invest in a vacuum filtering setup. It makes things go much quicker and simpler in my opinion.
 
IF someone else would be willing to repeat my experiment please.

Re-dissolve a gram or more Rue Harmalas and Re-MAnske using 10g/100ml salt and then 5/100, the later of course being half the amount, that is suggested in this tek.

Once again my conclusion is that half the amount of salt equals or loses 1/2 the harmalas.

However I will try again too, just to make sure.

Considering that the solubility of salt in water is around 360 gram per liter, the original recipe leaves plenty of room, and was probably chosen for a reason ; as in this may be the minimal amount of salt required to precipitate all the alkaloids.
 
Well, I didn't do exactly as you described plumsmooth, but I got some interesting results nonetheless.

First Batch:

500mg harmine dissolved into 20ml vinegar
added 20ml saturated salt solution to harmine solution

at first I didn't think I got it hot enough so I transferred it to a pot to heat it up some more. I noticed that there were already little crystals starting to form so I added a bit more water so they would go back into the solution. Once everything was redissolved I reduced it back to the original 40ml and allowed to cool off slowly.

Since I kinda botched this one, I'll probably re-do it just to see if anything happens differently.

Second Batch:

500mg harmine dissolved into 20ml vinegar
place solution into a pot with 20ml water
saturate entire solution with salt
return solution to shot glass


Third Batch:

500mg harmine is dissolved into 10ml vingegar
10ml of saturated salt solution is added
precipitation takes place instantly

I'm letting everything chill to see how much it will crystallize.

Attached is what it looks like so far.
 

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Well that is pretty close to my idea.
Only difference seems the heating.
I usually follow the Manske to the letter.
Actually now that I think of it since water holds 360 grams per liter of salt.
Half of that is 130, 30 more grams per liter than the Manske calls for

Although I learned that hot water doesn't hold much more.
Apparently it may even hold less at a certain temperature from what I remember reading.
Or that may have been Na2Co3 I'm thinking of.

But anyway if you are saturating water with salt and even halving that.
You may still be adding over 25% more than you need to to complete the precipitation?
 
I've never read the 'official' manske literature. The only thing I know about it is what I've read here on the Nexus.

I never weighed how much salt I use.

For my tek, I saturate the salt separately and add it to the solution. The only other way I've heard to do the manske is to saturate the entire solution.

So far it seems the best results came from the last test where both solutions were pretty saturated. When I went to filter it, there wasn't much liquid to filter. It was more like a solid clump of alks stuck in the glass. It took quite a bit more water to get everything to dissolve.

The first test is drying now and the other two tests are still resting in the fridge.

I think I need to redo the first test because of my impatience/mistakes. I'll do it again with 500mg of fresh alks and leave it to sit overnight so the crystals can form how they are supposed to.

When I filtered the first solution, I reduced it some more and let it cool again and got more alks growing, so I really believe to get everything by using half the salt, you have to allow the crystals to form completely.

Thanks for pushing me to test this out.
 
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