The Term 'Breakthrough'

[hug454]

For me a breakthrough is that you no longer observe the weirdness but become an integral part of said weirdness and then you come back after everything disintegrates in on itself and are speechless apart from odd random "what just happened????"
I remember writing to another member who introduced me to the forum describing what had just happened. His reply? "It gets weirder....". I remember thinking to myself "how the f... can this get any weirder???".
I've done my fair share of different kinds of drugs over the last 40 years to varying degrees of stupidness and i am sure that there are more intense experiences from other types of drugs and psychedelics but for me a DMT breakthrough has been the apex in mind blowing, whatthefuckery, lovely, alien scariness.....

 

[RowRowRow YourBoat]

I find this an interesting discussion and its circling around addressing something I have been wondering about. For reference, by my estimation, I have only broke through once.

Lastly, there seems to be a preoccupation with 'breaking through' when so much can be gleaned from “lower” levels of experience as well. It's not always about reaching the pinnacle, but basking in the entire paradigm as a whole.

This is what I have been wondering about recently. It seems so much of the discussion around DMT is centered on or in relation to breakthroughs that I wonder if its something I shouldn't be pursuing more. I have been purposely exploring sub-breakthrough experiences but I wonder if I am missing out. When people talk about this or that device they talk about how much to use for a breakthrough, when they make changa they talk about how much it takes for them to breakthrough, when they talk about a session they talk about working towards a breakthrough, when they write trip reports they write about breakthroughs, etc..

Am I supposed to more preoccupied with breakthroughs like it seems so many people are? Am I wasting my time gleaning things from lower levels when I could just jump to the pinnacle? I know you are saying the opposite, but still, why does everybody constantly talk about breakthroughs, is it really like you say; is it the whole paradigm the point or should I actually be striving to breakthrough? I really can't decide if other people are just obsessed with skipping to the end or if I've been mucking about with too much foreplay.

It seems something that is ultimately up for me to decide for myself, but at this point I remain curious.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I find this an interesting discussion and its circling around addressing something I have been wondering about. For reference, by my estimation, I have only broke through once.

Lastly, there seems to be a preoccupation with 'breaking through' when so much can be gleaned from “lower” levels of experience as well. It's not always about reaching the pinnacle, but basking in the entire paradigm as a whole.

This is what I have been wondering about recently. It seems so much of the discussion around DMT is centered on or in relation to breakthroughs that I wonder if its something I shouldn't be pursuing more. I have been purposely exploring sub-breakthrough experiences but I wonder if I am missing out. When people talk about this or that device they talk about how much to use for a breakthrough, when they make changa they talk about how much it takes for them to breakthrough, when they talk about a session they talk about working towards a breakthrough, when they write trip reports they write about breakthroughs, etc..

Am I supposed to more preoccupied with breakthroughs like it seems so many people are? Am I wasting my time gleaning things from lower levels when I could just jump to the pinnacle? I know you are saying the opposite, but still, why does everybody constantly talk about breakthroughs, is it really like you say; is it the whole paradigm the point or should I actually be striving to breakthrough? I really can't decide if other people are just obsessed with skipping to the end or if I've been mucking about with too much foreplay.

It seems something that is ultimately up for me to decide for myself, but at this point I remain curious.

I think everyone focuses on it and talks about because that's what everyone else is talking about. It becomes a self-perpetuating echo chamber that is fueled by the power of suggestion.

I think it's also focused on a great deal because many seem to find lower levels of experience unpleasant and hard to manage. For me, that where the opportunity to do inner work lies as we are not so disengaged from ourselves as a result from the mechanics of the experience.

I personally use DMT in a therapeutic manner more often than not which keeps me at lower levels and has been a component leading me to be able to make this observation.

And again I wrote this for those too impacted by what they've heard from others, presently without the ability to discern their experience for themselves. We as creatures tend to gravitate towards explanations that are laid out before us before anything else. I think this may be a factor in why breaking through is obvious for some but not for others.

You'll find your balance in time with persistence and reflection

One love

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Am I supposed to more preoccupied with breakthroughs like it seems so many people are? Am I wasting my time gleaning things from lower levels when I could just jump to the pinnacle?

I had some breakthroughs and I sometimes find their benefits difficult to integrate in everyday life. I really love them, but I definitely think they should not be the only purpose. From now on I'm more focused on therapeutic and self exploration with DMT, so I systematically associate it with harmalas and stay at sub-breakthroughs levels, which I find more helpful and beneficial than most of the breakthroughs I had. I even never tried to breakthrough while on harmalas, the new doors this combo opens at sub-BT levels are numerous new fields of exploration and discovery, especially self-discovery. I think the trip is easier to orient, you can go more easily where you want. In particular I love these hypnagogic and conscious dreamlike states that I can easily reach at sub-BT level. Cheerz !

 

[Panpsychic]

I am quoting from another thread because the topic is relevant here

Try not to judge. I have done DMT at least 1000 times and had several hundred breakthroughs.

I am curious about the self designated "breakthrough" and the variability in which it seems to be used. Obviously its highly subjective but contrast this quote from Julian Palmer "a true DMT breakthrough is so overwhelming its not something most people want to have more than once or a handful or times in their lives".

Are we talking about the same thing here necessarily? How useful is it to have such designations and categories and are there even levels of breakthrough within what most people are calling a 'breakthrough level' experience?

I suppose breakthrough depends on what your reference point is for usual tripping and parameters like immersion in the experience etc

 

[Varallo]

I am quoting from another thread because the topic is relevant here



I am curious about the self designated "breakthrough" and the variability in which it seems to be used. Obviously its highly subjective but contrast this quote from Julian Palmer "a true DMT breakthrough is so overwhelming its not something most people want to have more than once or a handful or times in their lives".

Are we talking about the same thing here necessarily? How useful is it to have such designations and categories and are there even levels of breakthrough within what most people are calling a 'breakthrough level' experience?

I suppose breakthrough depends on what your reference point is for usual tripping and parameters like immersion in the experience etc

I think this conversation is starting to go in circles a bit. To me, a true breakthrough is unmistakable. It’s not just a matter of tripping very hard, it’s a complete shift in being, where you’re no longer present in any ordinary sense. Anyone who’s really experienced that space knows exactly what I mean. It’s not subtle, and it’s not something that leaves much room for doubt.

Some people might feel like they’ve had a breakthrough, when in reality they’re just experiencing an intense trip. That does happen, and they might call it a breakthrough, but it’s not something anyone else can judge from the outside. It’s ultimately unknowable to others. So then, is it still a breakthrough? For people who haven’t gone deep enough, maybe it seems like one. But that also makes the label less useful, because it’s being applied to very different experiences.

That said, I believe anyone who has truly entered that space, who has dissolved into something beyond self and time, will absolutely recognize it. It’s an indescribable experience, and in my view, quite unique to DMT. Other psychedelics, even at high doses, can lead to similar states, but they don’t usually produce the same sudden rupture from ordinary consciousness. Vaporized DMT in particular brings about such an abrupt and complete shift in perspective that it becomes very clear when you’ve crossed that threshold. That’s the breakthrough. It’s not just a matter of intensity or immersion, but a categorical difference in experience.

As for the idea that most people only need one or two breakthroughs in their lives, that might hold true for some. But for others, multiple breakthroughs are part of an ongoing process. With continued exploration, reaching that state can become easier. It doesn’t become less profound, but your relationship with it changes. The impact remains, but how it integrates into your life and understanding evolves over time.

So, yes, there may be subjective variability in what people call a breakthrough. But I do think there’s a clear difference between pushing the limits of a strong trip and truly stepping into that other, alien dimension. And once you’ve been there, you know.

 

[Pandora]

For me a breakthrough involves a number of factors personally: Definitely loosing some sense of being in touch with my body. Sometimes all sense and being out of body. Sometimes convinced I am dead and sometimes beyond any thought/convincing.

What happens is I get transposed utterly to a different, very alien, frenetic, inhabited world. I meet amazing entities and they are surprised to see me there. They compete for space to lunge towards my hyper face and telepathically send inquiries that equate to, "Who are you? Why did you manifest here? What do you want?" Simultaneously I am being slammed with a palpable sense of deja vu - some time, some trip, some life I have been here before. At this point I do not hear the music. What I hear is a high pitched "carrier wave" that is like tintinitis or a dog whistle. Sometimes it is a ridiculous, loud, up and down siren sound.

The entities are everywhere. If the space seems to be open or wide, they float around in the sky on fantastic vehicles. Sometimes I am watching them from a kind of edge and a piece of hyperland breaks off and I float around. Sometimes my hyperbody (doesn't feel like a body - feels like raw sensation) just floats around in these fantastic spaces. I personally cannot control my direction of movement.

But the sound itself, being part of the All One is PACKED with information. One single point on the line that is visible as the sound contains EVERYTHING, everything that ever was, has been or could be, everything that never was. And I am in a space that is way more than a dot on a line which is actually a sound.

LOL sounds crazy, but for me that is a breakthrough.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I feel another consideration that should be made is the quality of experience one has. People are able to have more breakthrough experiences if there's less "negative" or " hard" content, and statistically, this kind of experience is no more evenly distributed amongst people. Many that have a certain high number may not have frequented as many "hell realms" and someone who has less under their belt.

Then, there are weird phenomena like that which I experience, where the breakthrough space, or elements of it, creep into the experience, effectively bringing it "closer" to me. This is why the term doesn't really mean as much to me anymore.

I've had too many experiences of being both here and there simultaneously. And I don't mean that I just see a lot of weird stuff, no, I will be embedded somewhere else, no matter how subtle, complete with environment, entities, and ambiance of being elsewhere.

Now, we'll see where I stand in a couple of years, because ya boy is feeling a resurgence. I've been more comfortable and less strict and harsh and fraught with worry about my use that I'm much more free about it, which not only means I grab the pipe more regularly, but am also going deeper than usual more often. I guess I'm less neurotic... but still neurotic.

Thank you all.

One love

 

[quantumtantra]

According to the book The Adventure of Self-Discovery by Stanislav Grof, there is a spectrum of transpersonal experiences that can be accessed, encounters with entities, unity with the whole, etc. One experience is not better than another unless it helps you to be a better person, and each person receives what they deserve at the moment. Peace.

 

[Orion]

The way I would describe it has to do with the level of immersion in hyperspace, rather than intensity of experience. It's not a question of how strong the experience was visually, spiritually or mentally, as plenty can be gained from a sub-breakthrough dose. Some might call a mental or spiritual revelation a 'breakthrough'. They might write very enthusiastically about such an experience, describing strong visuals and feelings opening once locked doors in their mind. But this doesn't necessarily imply a DMT 'breakthrough' to me, though it could have been part of one.

Let's say there is a membrane between worlds. I can look at it, through it, even push my face into it and stretch it thin, but only when it breaks and I fall through it would I say I 'broke through'. I put that between 'seeing hyperspace' and 'ego death'. I would say ego death is often spoken of as a breakthrough, which I suppose has to be the case since it sits further along the scale. But a breakthrough doesn't necessarily imply ego death on it's own.

To keep things simple I would say it like this: Seeing there, being there, and not being. Each of these stages can vary in intensity.

I've had too many experiences of being both here and there simultaneously.

And then there's this, where you push so far through the membrane without breaking it that you vacuum-form your existence in it for a short period. Luckily it's quite breathable despite being dimension-proof until you throw enough smoalk at it.

 

[Panpsychic]

It’s an indescribable experience, and in my view, quite unique to DMT. Other psychedelics, even at high doses, can lead to similar states, but they don’t usually produce the same sudden rupture from ordinary consciousness. Vaporized DMT in particular brings about such an abrupt and complete shift in perspective that it becomes very clear when you’ve crossed that threshold. That’s the breakthrough. It’s not just a matter of intensity or immersion, but a categorical difference in experience.

Thats likely more to do with the roa than with DMT. LSD and psilocybin can take you very very far also but there wont be anything abrupt about it usually just gradual. Likewise we don't usually hear people talking about 'breakthrough' with Ayahuasca so its more to do with the sudden launching.

I feel another consideration that should be made is the quality of experience one has.

Absolutely. I mean thats what counts ultimately and how you can integrate it.

Amother consideration is if the 'breakthrough' terminology even applies when you add Harmalas. I don't think it does. It primarily was a term introduced by McKenna to refer to the vaped freebase. The drawing out and deepening as well as qualitative changes introduced by doing it together with another symbiotic psychoactive changes things to the point where the same framework shouldnt be applied.

Then, there are weird phenomena like that which I experience, where the breakthrough space, or elements of it, creep into the experience, effectively bringing it "closer" to me. This is why the term doesn't really mean as much to me anymore.

I've had too many experiences of being both here and there simultaneously.

Same. Which is why you should use concepts and frameworks where they are useful but not cling to them where they become a burden or limitation.

According to the book The Adventure of Self-Discovery by Stanislav Grof, there is a spectrum of transpersonal experiences that can be accessed, encounters with entities, unity with the whole, etc. One experience is not better than another unless it helps you to be a better person, and each person receives what they deserve at the moment. Peace.

Have always found Grofs frameworks to be very useful. Partly because he is coming from the psychotherapy angle it is intrinsically geared toward self development and therefore more workable. I don't know if he ever used the term breakthrough but it seems far too simplistic a model to be one he would have routinely employed.

An interesting question would be then how would the so called 'DMT breakthrough' map onto Grofs framework if at all?
Its clear the other well know fast acting psychedelic 5-MeO-DMT broadly maps onto ego death and nondual unity consciousness, but just saying an 'ego intact breakthrough' doesnt seem to say as much.

The way I would describe it has to do with the level of immersion in hyperspace, rather than intensity of experience. It's not a question of how strong the experience was visually, spiritually or mentally, as plenty can be gained from a sub-breakthrough dose.

I would agree here. I have had some incredibly intense experiences with DMT-Harmalas where, although I was still basically in the room I was also being immersed in the experience. One particular time my notes read after that "short of actually dying, I don’t see how one could go much further". It was like a level of Universal consciousness had been downloaded to me and it was so intense it was barely containable physically, yet in terms of huge visuals or transportation to another realm, not so much. So this distinction is important to make I think as we try to more clearly have a topography of experience.

 

[Panpsychic]

For me a breakthrough involves a number of factors personally: Definitely loosing some sense of being in touch with my body. Sometimes all sense and being out of body. Sometimes convinced I am dead and sometimes beyond any thought/convincing.

What happens is I get transposed utterly to a different, very alien, frenetic, inhabited world. I meet amazing entities and they are surprised to see me there. They compete for space to lunge towards my hyper face and telepathically send inquiries that equate to, "Who are you? Why did you manifest here? What do you want?" Simultaneously I am being slammed with a palpable sense of deja vu - some time, some trip, some life I have been here before. At this point I do not hear the music. What I hear is a high pitched "carrier wave" that is like tintinitis or a dog whistle. Sometimes it is a ridiculous, loud, up and down siren sound.

The entities are everywhere. If the space seems to be open or wide, they float around in the sky on fantastic vehicles. Sometimes I am watching them from a kind of edge and a piece of hyperland breaks off and I float around. Sometimes my hyperbody (doesn't feel like a body - feels like raw sensation) just floats around in these fantastic spaces. I personally cannot control my direction of movement.

But the sound itself, being part of the All One is PACKED with information. One single point on the line that is visible as the sound contains EVERYTHING, everything that ever was, has been or could be, everything that never was. And I am in a space that is way more than a dot on a line which is actually a sound.

LOL sounds crazy, but for me that is a breakthrough.

Seems some quite amazing experiences here but quite a big range also, from some to full loss of body awareness, to entity encounters in a parrallel dimension, to unity with All One. This reinforces to me why having a broader framework that more fully captures the variability of what can happen can be more useful.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Amother consideration is if the 'breakthrough' terminology even applies when you add Harmalas. I don't think it does. It primarily was a term introduced by McKenna to refer to the vaped freebase. The drawing out and deepening as well as qualitative changes introduced by doing it together with another symbiotic psychoactive changes things to the point where the same framework shouldnt be applied.

While I think that the ROA can make a difference, to me, the term is specific to DMT to me. I've heard people having somewhat similar experiences to smoalked when doing pharma or aya: entities, other worlds, etc.
With regard to the smoalked ROA, I don't feel like the addition of harmalas changes that at all. You're just changing vehicles. If DMT alone is a rocket, the adding harmalas makes it more of a space shuttle. This can be deduced by virtue of why people tend to recommend or take harmalas at all when smoalking DMT: to ease the onset. I don't see how this difference is stark enough to then make a fully emmersive experience with added harmalas not a "breakthrough."

Same. Which is why you should use concepts and frameworks where they are useful but not cling to them where they become a burden or limitation.

Use a hammer for a nail, use a screwdriver for a screw, and leave it all if none are appropriate...

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

While I think that the ROA can make a difference, to me, the term is specific to DMT to me. I've heard people having somewhat similar experiences to smoalked when doing pharma or aya: entities, other worlds, etc.

Sometimes overlap in experiences, but if the roa wasn't the primary factor then the term "Ayahuasca breakthrough" would probably be a thing which it isn't. I also am also pretty sure if one could vape/smoke freebase psilocybin it would result in similar 'breakthrough' type experiences. Its that rapid hit to the brain that is the defining characteristic alongside the molecule.

With regard to the smoalked ROA, I don't feel like the addition of harmalas changes that at all. You're just changing vehicles. If DMT alone is a rocket, the adding harmalas makes it more of a space shuttle. This can be deduced by virtue of why people tend to recommend or take harmalas at all when smoalking DMT: to ease the onset. I don't see how this difference is stark enough to then make a fully emmersive experience with added harmalas not a "breakthrough."

I suppose it depends on if you frame it with reference to smoking freebase or taking Aya. Especially if doing the hybrid drinking Harmalas and smoking changa/freebase combo it can be seen as more like "smoked Ayahuasca" than "drawn out freebase".

The character is different and changed as well as the duration being drawn out. This is why I question if the same framework can be applied but like any, use it if it works for you.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Sometimes overlap in experiences, but if the roa wasn't the primary factor then the term "Ayahuasca breakthrough" would probably be a thing which it isn't. I also am also pretty sure if one could vape/smoke freebase psilocybin it would result in similar 'breakthrough' type experiences. Its that rapid hit to the brain that is the defining characteristic alongside the molecule.

As you noted above, the term breakthrough was popularized by Terence, so his jargon may not have made into the aya fray and so the term never got used.
I think there are ways of smoking psilocybin and psilocin now.

I suppose it depends on if you frame it with reference to smoking freebase or taking Aya. Especially if doing the hybrid drinking Harmalas and smoking changa/freebase combo it can be seen as more like "smoked Ayahuasca" than "drawn out freebase".

The character is different and changed as well as the duration being drawn out. This is why I question if the same framework can be applied but like any, use it if it works for you.

Yep, the discussion really just highlights the main point of the OP.

One love

 

[Ruffles]

I don't know what breakthrough means... Really. I understand conceptually what is meant by others. But I kind of agree with Panpsychic about roa and breakthrough...

Smoking freebase is pretty much like being shot out of a cannon or going up in a rocket. I am breaking through stuff or stuff is coming at me really fast and I suddenly break and stop at somewhere spacially impossible or this place arrived at me. Some of these I would call breakthrough but only due to the direction of "movement".

IM always gives the impression of it gradually coming out of the eidetic darkness to my field of view until it's a total 3D environment. The lighted shapes slowly lose definition and recede back to eidetic blurs and darkness. So it's coming to and at me and presents itself with varying speeds depending on dose and batch... Only rarely I felt propelled... Wouldn't say I ever had a breakthrough on this roa, but it's extremely intense on the > 40 mg fumarate range and the peak and visions are just as solid and well defined as 30 mg vaporized.

Oral is very much like a mushroom trip, many phases and subtle changes... It may take over me totally for some time but I sure didn't see it coming.

So I would say I only had breakthroughs on smoked-vaped freebase >25 mg 15 min suborbital trips around the earth. But the most fun and touching happened at the hard trips of >30 mg IM or the strange walks through the light forests.

 

[Icon]

After my first breakthrough I never again thought of WHAT a breakthrough is.
I don't see how anyone that has surely broken through can be wondering about the definition 'cause there's no doubt. So if you're wondering what a breakthrough is then I don't think you've ever experienced a breakthrough. Breakthrough the vail to a completely other reality.

Pretty much this. When it happens, you'll know. There doesn't need to be a comparison to specific landmarks. The content can vary, I often try to limit how much information is shared until after someone can experience it for themselves in their unique way.

I think it's a good term. Low doses, for me, are the worst. I can get minor psychedelic effects from weed, lsd, shrooms. I think DMT has the unique ability to go further without risking hours of detachment. If I'm not aiming to break through, ayahuasca would 100% be the appropriate route of administration, in my opinion.

Especially with vape cartridge format, it seems like repeated low-dose hits is becoming more popular. I feel like those people are missing the point, treating it like nicotine for a momentary drift, but obviously do what you want.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Yeah, everyone's different. There are also different types of breakthroughs. Also, often times, when one is having a brand new novel experience it can be hard to know how to categorize it, despite it's magnitude. There's variance.

Why does low dose DMT feel like the worst for you?

One love

 

[Icon]

It feels like all the physical disorientation without any of the fun visual stuff. Like I'm enduring the g-forces of a rocket launch that doesn't crack the atmosphere. When breaking through, it seems to overpower the physical body's sensations, enabling that feeling of leaving the body. Certain sensations and worries cease to exist. I don't like having my physical self-awareness ringing alarms. Might just be a symptom of anxiety.

What's the point of low dosing? I imagine sitting in a room, maybe in the presence of others, taking a hit, and commenting on how the carpet is shifting or something. There's a place for that; but my bt experiences feel extra special, like a sacred, secret place that can't be fully shared through language, whether in person or online.

I've had phenomenal sub-breakthrough experiences in group on pharmahuasca, though. There's certainly room for fun in the physical realm, but idk if smoking is the way.

If I could redirect the culture, I'd suggest mostly pharmahuasca ceremonies, both alone and in group, with smoking reserved for breakthroughs by experienced users - maybe on the comedown of a pharma trip. Compared to the cultural support that aboriginal tribes had for these ceremonies, suggesting that new users go straight for the breakthrough is maybe... not wrong, but relatively wasted on a mind with no system to integrate it. Not that you could ever be fully prepared.

 

[universecannon]

Low doses of changa or DMT can be incredibly useful and enjoyable once you get used to it IMO... especially in nature or with the right music. It helps to use a longer lasting psychedelic as a "platform" or basecamp, or even just oral harmalas. I'd recommend combining it with yoga, Qi Gong or just let your body move as it wants to while stretching.

I think breakthroughs are often very decoherent and overrated. They can be useful and obviously fascinating but LSD with lower doses of DMT for example, combined with sound and other techniques has been incredible to me personally. DMT is the most clear and rich psychedelic for me, and that remains true at non breakthrough doses