The World Leans to Decentralization

[vovin]

It's called decentralization, Democracy 2.0

Decentralization is true Democracy in action. We are in a state of evolution where mentality of the masses can be seen instantly via social media sites. The United States of America is literally getting one voice to speak as a mass population to those who are said to be in control. We are getting a leash to restrain them on and they are strategically trying to cut that leash. After all if we can vote over the internet now, we have the technology, what do we need them for?? Corporations, well you cant bribe 300 million people.

Society as a whole is in a state of transition. Much like the change from Sovereign rule to Democracy. Our version isnt the last version of government only one on many steps as human society evolves. We need to make the transition and allow the population to rule. We need to evolve.

 

[smokerx]

So what do you propose we should do ?

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Corporations, well you cant bribe 300 million people.

You do that by actually giving them what's best for everyone in a mutually beneficial relationship, with choice in terms. Despite the "big brother" aspect, Google has earned a lot of respect for me in actually doing what's best for it's users... generally because what's best for their users is best for them, but still.

So what do you propose we should do ?

Civilization Call to Power had an idea: Virtual Democracy

If I remember right, enabled after computers etc, with the description implying a form democracy using the power of computers to enable all citizens to have an equal say, eliminating the need for representation.

One day, if a system can be developed and secured, and with a fully open and transparent method for auditing, to allow every person to have a vote directly on the things we currently let our legislative vote on, we'd have the perfect manner in which to have a free, unoppressive government.

Redefine the legislative branch as simply the branch which creates the laws for the people to vote on, rather than creating and voting, and you'd have it.

Their job would be to listen to the people and draft bills/legislation to meet the needs of people. Lobbyists have no say in the votes anymore, only on the contents of the bill, which the people will decide on.

Make it as granular as possible as well. Each individual section being votable. Section 5C stating corporations with X status get a tax break, and people don't like it, too bad, it gets striked from the final bill by being voted off it.

 

[The Traveler]

One day, if a system can be developed and secured, and with a fully open and transparent method for auditing, to allow every person to have a vote directly on the things we currently let our legislative vote on, we'd have the perfect manner in which to have a free, unoppressive government.

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[dromedary]

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.

You touch on an interesting point which takes us to the fundamental nature of taxation in the modern monetary system. In the fiat money system the government sector can print as much money as it likes, so why are taxes necessary to fund public infrastructure? Why can't the government just keep printing money when it needs to spend and leave the existing money in the private sector?

(cue vague mumblings about hyperinflation)

In reality, inflation only becomes a problem if the government decides that high inflation is preferable to not printing lots of money - almost exclusively because they are fighting a losing war on home turf and consider hyperinflation better than the alternative of letting tens of thousands of citizens be murdered and territory lost. There is no counterexample. Hyperinflation never 'just happens'.

It's still not a good idea for governments to never impose taxes, even if it only causes modestly high inflation, but why?

The uncomfortable truth is that tax really, truly, is inevitable, even if there's no tax man taking a chunk of your paycheck, because inflation itself is a regressive tax on those not wealthy enough to be able to put their money in safe non-money investments. In a highly inflationary environment the average person has to accept their savings being rotted away by inflationary forces - they are punished for saving - while wealthy people with access to bond markets can store their savings in ways that avoid losing any value at all.

It's easy to feel like if you did not have to pay tax you could buy more, but if everyone was exempt from taxes there would be the same amount of goods to go around and a larger amount of money to do it. In the best case you would have no additional purchasing power. In the realistic case you would be extremely disadvantaged, because richer people than you are able to preserve their purchasing power much more effectively than you are.

The temptation is to think of taxation as pulling wealth out of the system and government spending putting it back in somewhere else - that both components are required for effective redistribution of wealth. In reality, both operations have both effects. Government taxation aims to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, to counter the effect of the invisible inflationary tax which redistributes wealth from the poor to the rich.

Simply put, government taxes make us wealthier than we would be otherwise.

 

[joedirt]

One day, if a system can be developed and secured, and with a fully open and transparent method for auditing, to allow every person to have a vote directly on the things we currently let our legislative vote on, we'd have the perfect manner in which to have a free, unoppressive government.

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I disagree. I think that we might actually see awareness of what tax dollars are really used for increase. I mean if the people voted away all taxes and then no one was plowing the roads after a snow storm....well I'm guessing that people would vote for taxes. Right now people are stupid because they can be. So many people don't even vote, but if they got to vote on actual issues then I'm pretty sure you'd see more voter turn out. Case in point. If pot heads could vote from their computer and didn't have to drag their lazy asses to polls we'd have legal marijuana tomorrow.

However, what I think is needed to make this work is a web site where any citizen can point and click to see exactly (down to the fraction of a penny) where their nations tax dollars are being spent. Fully itemized. I f joe bought a hammer I won't to see how much he paid for it and were he bought it. That's real government accountability. This alone would end a lot of debates.

And for those that say this isn't possible I say BS...if we can send people to the moon and bring them home then we can have a fully audited system of our tax dollars in real time.

Lastly. I think that if we don't eventually get to this sort of a system we are all basically screwed...well those alive in future generations anyway. Unless the people really get a voice things like climate change won't get the traction they really deserve because the people with the money make more by polluting than they do by cleaning up.

 

[I_Want_I_Seek]

So what do you propose we should do ?

I think we all have to find the answer to that for ourselves.

With respect to this decentralization, I'm not sure it matters what me or you or any one person does. I'm more of the Jared Diamond school of thought where this is more of an eventuality than a truly spontaneous outcome. So, finding that line of development and following it into the future might provide some good insight and guidance.

 

[I_Want_I_Seek]

One day, if a system can be developed and secured, and with a fully open and transparent method for auditing, to allow every person to have a vote directly on the things we currently let our legislative vote on, we'd have the perfect manner in which to have a free, unoppressive government.

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I hope that, while the masses (all of us) can be quite fickle on anything unifying, we're pragmatic and sensible enough to see that some structures just need foundations. Taxes (Capital) are a fundamental foundation on organizing governments. Until we figure out how to make it such that money does not translate to power in the world, I don't see this changing.

I'm not against or for taxes, I see it as an inevitability.

*Cue joke about death and taxes"

 

[SnozzleBerry]

One day, if a system can be developed and secured, and with a fully open and transparent method for auditing, to allow every person to have a vote directly on the things we currently let our legislative vote on, we'd have the perfect manner in which to have a free, unoppressive government.

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I hope that, while the masses (all of us) can be quite fickle on anything unifying, we're pragmatic and sensible enough to see that some structures just need foundations. Taxes (Capital) are a fundamental foundation on organizing governments. Until we figure out how to make it such that money does not translate to power in the world, I don't see this changing.

I'm not against or for taxes, I see it as an inevitability.

*Cue joke about death and taxes"

Capital and the State are both unsustainable. The only question is do we consciously change our global systems and institutions, or do we sit around clamoring about how it "works in theory" as it all comes crashing down around us. The material resources simply don't exist for this system to continue into the distant future.

 

[vovin]

When we allow the govt to control the media we are no better than North Korea. If those people knew the truth then Kim Jon Ill would have been dead decades ago. Through their control and influence in every single aspect of their peoples lifes they control how these people think. You are a product of your experiences is is only when you are deprived of the true information that misinformation can take hold. Misinformation well designed can often sway the most logical of minds. The first step in all resistances is to establish or retake in this case the lines of communication to the populace thus retaking the news media back from corporate control.

 

[onethousandk]

In reality, inflation only becomes a problem if the government decides that high inflation is preferable to not printing lots of money - almost exclusively because they are fighting a losing war on home turf and consider hyperinflation better than the alternative of letting tens of thousands of citizens be murdered and territory lost. There is no counterexample. Hyperinflation never 'just happens'.

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Many nations outside of war have suffered hyper inflation. The easiest example being that Germany didn't have hyper inflation during WWI, it happened afterwords. A brilliant podcast on how Brazil tackled their hyper inflation comes from This American Life.

I'm not sure if this will work: people want to pay 0,- tax but at the same time demand a working public infrastructure. The idea is good but it needs something to take care of the contradicting interests.

If you need any proof of this just look at California's initiative system. The public gets to directly vote on their legislation and they've done exactly this: vote down taxes and vote up services. While California isn't helped by an inept legislator, the ballot initiatives just make the cluster fuck worse.

Then there is the issue of idea vs implementation. Let's say we voted and the majority wanted universal healthcare. Do we then vote on each and every facet of how it's implemented? We'll still need people hammering out the details for us.

Representatives aren't going anywhere. I think what we need is a system that gets us better representatives. I think that system is called culture and society.

 

[vovin]

The public gets to directly vote on their legislation and they've done exactly this: vote down taxes and vote up services. While California isn't helped by an inept legislator, the ballot initiatives just make the cluster fuck worse.

So the internet is secure enough to spend money but not secure enough for the internet. More people vote for American idol than for president. Weill more American security is coming

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20054342-281.html

Now the role of the politician, He's your messe4nger Bitch. He carries out the orders of his constituency. The people vote on said subject and the voted official plays a "administrative role' Carrying forth the vote of the people. Notice the ultimate decision relies upon the people.

in the end who can the public bitch about but themselves.

 

[MelCat]

I just wanted to chime in with a couple of quick points.

First the main topic at hand, decentralization.

The Occupy Wall Street Tech-Ops team is working on a new and interesting project coined FGA or Federated General Assembly.

The Federated General Assembly (FGA) is an open source, distributed social platform designed to support the Occupy movement by allowing people and groups to collaborate, share their activities and ideas, with an overall emphasis on meaning, value, and trust.

More info at : http://wiki.occupy.net/wiki/Main_Page/Projects/Federated_General_Assembly

Occupy Geeks Are Building a Facebook for the 99%

When they started the project, they were unaware of the Activizr project by Rick Falkvinge who is the founder of the Pirate Party in Europe. More details here.

No idea if they plan on merging the projects together but it definitely wouldn't be a bad idea.

As far as infrastructure goes, The Venus Project is still an option if only we could get enough people on board with the idea.

 

[xantho]

In reality, inflation only becomes a problem if the government decides that high inflation is preferable to not printing lots of money - almost exclusively because they are fighting a losing war on home turf and consider hyperinflation better than the alternative of letting tens of thousands of citizens be murdered and territory lost. There is no counterexample. Hyperinflation never 'just happens'.

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Many nations outside of war have suffered hyper inflation. The easiest example being that Germany didn't have hyper inflation during WWI, it happened afterwords. A brilliant podcast on how Brazil tackled their hyper inflation comes from This American Life.

Another example of hyperinflation is Zimbabwe in the late 2000s. The government, led by president Robert Mugabe, carried out a land-reclamation scheme which saw highly-productive agricultural land taken from white farmers and handed over to black Zimbabweans who had no experience or knowledge of large-scale agriculture. As a result, food output capacity effectively halved and unemployment rose to 80%. This, along with various related factors, led to hyperinflation. They even ended up printing bills with a value of 100 billion Zimbabwean dollars. I just wanted to add this example for the sake of interest.

So I agree with onethousandk that hyperinflation can and does occur outside of war-time but I also agree with dromedary that hyperinflation "never 'just happens'".

 

[dromedary]

Germany's hyperinflation may not have been during wartime, but it was the direct result of being on the losing side of a war - it was the Treaty of Versailles that bankrupted them.
Zimbabwe's hyperinflation was a result of funding civil war.
Brazil's hyperinflation is not readily attributed to any particular war, but it happened under the rule of a military dictatorship.

It was orthogonal to my point that hyperinflation usually but not always happens around wars, particularly to the losers, but I stand by it. Hyperinflation is never really an accident - high inflation, at least, must be entered into willingly, because it is preferable to all other options. Hyperinflation is a risk that can only happen under these conditions.

My point is that taxes are not necessary to fund public infrastructure. Taxes are only necessary to redistribute buying power from the wealthy to the poor and put a throttle on inflation. In the case of dangerously low aggregate demand, building public infrastructure is one way of stimulating demand (lowering taxes is another). This accumulation of public debt boosts net private savings (in fact by definition it is the only action that can have this effect). The only reason to tax is to reduce net private savings, if an excess of money is causing people to buy too much stuff and push up prices too quickly - ie: rising inflation.

 

[arcanum]

oldtripper, there is a bit of "hate" coming over in your post, however for the most part what you write is true. However, I beleive the problem goes way beyond zionist-controled policies on Capitol Hill. It's a global issue at stake." The Anglo-American power Elites" ( which certainly has zionist influences tugging at its sleeves) goal of " one world governance" is the predominant theme. They are know realising that the grand plan could be set back or even thwarted by the influence of the Internet and economic hardship. Hence the hurried legislations to curb so called copyright violations, beefed up security everywhere. Phoney wars everywhere. You could even argue that "Foodstamps" are being used as a kind of strategic weapon ( Hungry people= angry people). Decentralisation is a pipe dream, the Power Elites means and methods are fined tuned to favour Anglo-American "One world" governance.

 

[vovin]

I personally think one of the biggest issues is that we are coming off a economic peak where the most productive generations (20-40) are spoiled little children even into adulthood. Wherein the 50's and 60's men were expected to be 'manly men' these days less manliness is preferred to metro sexual type. It's strange in school I cant tell you how man times I have seen young men with no interest in anything more than a 1 night stand. I ask wy and their reply every time "I'm a gamer". They hold no qualms about admitting that they would rather play games than be in a relationship.

Funny thing in school one of my most successful pickup lines was to walk into the classroom and be speaking on my phone. I usually say something to the effect 'Modern Warfare 3??? man you still on that, you need to get a life'. I hang up scan the room and any woman looking at me has a boyfriend or husband stuck on a game and meeting her is just too easy. Easier than a single woman, seriously. these are women in relationships where the man hasnt touched them in months sometimes years. They are more worked up than you are.

The study:http://www.emaxhealth.com/1/3/30382/men-would-rather-play-video-games-have-sex.html

The women I have heard say man if I just just find one 'real man'. You bread them out! They had to become androgenous for you to look at them and thus we now have a generation spoiled by their parents, androgenized by females who found 'manly men' intimidating. What we have here is literally the lesser sons and daughters of greater men. Our educaton system is a joke I went for 2 1/2 years and I swear on all that I find holy I learned zilch 99% was common knowledge I already knew or could learn in 1/10 the time on my own for free.

The strength of America has always been it's people, that strength is fading. There is a general sense of hopelessness amongst the masses. The 'why bother' attitude. People just don't see opportunity and aren't incentivised to look. The few that still have the drive are so bogged down in the system they cant win.

 

[Bill Cipher]

oldtripper - You may take your anti-semitism elsewhere. You are no longer a member here.

Bye bye.