Theanine Rebound Anxiety

[Doc Buxin]

I personally like to combine skullcap, motherwort and passiflora.....

...I am talking about the american skullcap..skutellaria lateriflora..and not chinese skullcap....

Jamie is right on with that suggestion. Motherwort is a fantastic heart calmer; American skullkap & passionflower are great, mild nerve tonics that are very soothing.:thumb_up:

 

[urtica]

I second all of the above herbs (scuttelaria, passiflora, leonorus) for anxiety, and would love to mention a few stronger ones.

Bleeding Heart (Dicentra formosa) works great as an emergency anxiolytic, even a few drops can calm someone down a lot, I have worked with this herb with a few people who are withdrawing from harder drugs (alcohol, opiates)

Pasqueflower (Anemone spp) works great for people who have a constant feeling of impending doom, very settling

Ghost Pipe (Monotropa uniflora) is the only plant that I have worked with that will reliably bring someone down from a bad/heavy trip, often reducing pupil dilation even...

I would look more into these plant before working with them as they are all pretty drug like in their effects, i.e some people find them too or unpleasantly sedating...

 

[joedirt]

So I've tried pretty much all these herbs over the years....Though I have not tried Bleeding Heart, so I'll refrain from comment on that. But skullcap, passiflora, leonorus I have certain tried in addition to st johns' wart and lemon balm and a few others that are escaping me. These were all very mildly anxiolytic.. very mild.. I also forgot valerian root.. I actually purchased dried root and used that at one point.. it leaves me feeling groggy the next day like skullcap. And both have GABAnergic activity and likely have rebound issues when used continuously... though I never have experienced this, but I have also never used them daily like I did theanine.


Theanine though. None of these even come close to anxiolytic potential of theanine. Not for me anyway. Theanine is almost just like a benzo in high doses (200mg+)...and the rebound is almost as bad as well... I can go from anxious to feeling like I'm unstoppable in 30 minutes... then 12-15 hours later feel like the world is caving in around me..

It's cool to see the other herbs mentioned in this thread as alternatives because maybe someone doesn't need something as strong as theanine. If that is the case then I absolutely recommend they investigate these herbs..

However, my primary point of this post was to actually get a solid google index with the key words "Theanine Rebound".. because there is an internet wide circle jerk going on were everyone is raving that theanine is this super beneficial alpha wave inducer that gives miraculous concentration when combined with caffeine all without any sort of down side... which is simply not true.. and how could it be true? Even a basic understanding of neurochemistry tells you that your brain will adapt to what you give it..and when you take it away there will be a rebound as it undoes that adaption... that's just basic neurochemistry. Now it's possible that someone may not experience that rebound as intense anxiety, though if they were taking the drug for anxiety relief then it's quite possible the rebound anxiety will be worse.

Yes theanine is great as an anxiolytic....seriously anyone on benzo's should consider switching or at least trying to switch to theanine. However, contrary to internet opinion it is not without downside. Is it as bad as benzos? Well I'd guess probably not, but I discontinued use pretty quickly. It will be interesting is to see in a few years time how people that have taken it daily for months or years as a sort of nootropic feel when they try to give it up. I'm guessing, that just like cannabis, the house of cards will come crashing down and it will in fact be scientifically shown to have clinically significant withdrawals.. Right now though everyone is still acting like it's some sort of miracle drug. For Christs sake the Japanese made it legal as a food additive.. .

It took approximately 4 day's for me to feel all the way normal again from my short term daily usage... With the first day of withdrawal pretty freaking intense.... Day two was less, but it honestly took a full 4 day's before I felt baseline again. I'm sure others will experience this differently..

Peace

 

[Doc Buxin]

In the name of disseminating useful information, anyone exploring natural substances to utilize as anxiolytics should really do some research into the classic & patent Chinese medicines.

Check out: Suan Zao Ren Tang (Date Seed Decoction); An Mien Pian (Nourish Sleep Tablet); Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li Tang (Bupluerum, Dragonbone & Oystershell Decoction); Gui Pi Tang (Restore The Spleen Decoction); Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor's Special Pill For The Heart) to name a few potent ones that can really help resolve the underlying imbalances creating the anxiety/insomnia.

Keep in mind that each of these formulas can & will treat anxiety &/or insomnia, but each is designed for a different body/mind type.

If any of you ever have any questions regarding Traditional Chinese Medicine you can PM me & I will do my best to help. I have been a student & practitioner of herbal medicine for 30+ years & for the decade+ I've been running an acupuncture clinic & herbal pharmacy.

Peace be with us all.:thumb_up:

Oh & I forgot to add my namesake formula An Shen Bu Xin (Calm the Spirit Nourish the Heart). These pills are affectionately known as "Buxin Pills" at the clinic I run, even though the proper pronunciation is "Boo Shin".:lol:

Generally none of these well-balanced herbal formulas will engender any kind of rebound effect.

 

[joedirt]

Generally none of these well-balanced herbal formulas will engender any kind of rebound effect.

Have you tested this? Have you taken a daily dose for a week or longer and then abruptly stopped? Cause if not then this is the exact kind of information I'm trying to help combat... I have no experience with your product, but I am concerned with harm reduction.

Just for reference I went and looked up the list of ingredients for you "Buxin Pills", and as a Medicinal Chemist I certainly would not recommend someone start taking a herbal concoction blindly. Yes I'm a fan of herbals, but complex mixes like this.. . Not so much because the potential for allergic reaction across individuals is significantly higher as is the potential for drug-drug interactions or even herb-herb interactions.

For instance can you describe the mechanism of action of each of the individual herbs in this concoction? How do these herbs interact with other herbs or other drugs? Have you scientifically tested his concoctions well enough to boldly say, "they generally don't cause rebound"... because that statement is not only meaningless if you haven't but it's actually misleading and misinformation. And that in no way means the product doesn't work, but it certainly doesn't alleviate any of my concerns towards harm reduction. It's one thing to sell a product. It's another thing to make false claims without data.

Remember, everyone I knew said the same thing about cannabis for decades.. and I'm seeing it with theanine as well...


To be kinda blunt (though not rude).. it feels like you are trying to make a shameless plug back to your product line on a thread that is intended to be used for harm reduction. :thumb_dow And I in know way have a problem with your business or the products you sell. Seriously I don't. But I'm not a fan of shameless promoting on a harm reduction thread. If you can provide the data I'll happily stand corrected.

A proprietary blend of
Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae
Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis
Rhizoma Acori Tatarinowii
Concha Margaritifera Usta
Caulis Polygoni Multiflori
Cortex Albiziae
Semen Cuscutae Chinensis
Herba Ecliptae Prostratae
Fructus Ligustri Lucidi
Radix Rehmanniae Glutinosae

 

[Doc Buxin]

Have you tested this?

Yes. Many times over long periods of time. For days, weeks, even months, years.

Have you taken a daily dose for a week or longer and then abruptly stopped?

Yes, I have, many times.

...with your product...

It is not "my" product. The herbal formulas I have mentioned can be made by anybody who has access to the herbal ingredients or purchased from many different outlets worldwide. These are simply very safe, effective, time-tested herbal formulas that we keep on hand at our clinic & herbal pharmacy all the time so that our acupuncturist can prescribe them to various clients in need.

but I am concerned with harm reduction...

That is my main concern too.

Just for reference I went and looked up the list of ingredients for you "Buxin Pills", and as a Medicinal Chemist I certainly would not recommend someone start taking a herbal concoction blindly.

I completely understand. That's why we keep a licensed, experienced Doctor of Oriental Medicine on hand several days of the week. However these formulas have been used by millions of people & some of them for thousands of years (the newest formulas are only 150-200 years old).

...can you describe the mechanism of action of each of the individual herbs in this concoction?

I can, if you wish, but you might not be able to take anything away from it since it is all in Eastern medicine lingo which is light years away from Western medicine lingo. It took me quite a while to wrap my mind around the Eastern concepts, even while being immersed in it from Hong Kong to Sri Lanka & many places in between.

How do these herbs interact with other herbs or other drugs?

The only drug category that one does want to be careful with mixing these formulas with is the prescription blood-thinner category, e.g. Coumadin, Warfarin, etc.

Have you scientifically tested his concoctions well enough to boldly say, "they generally don't cause rebound"...

Yes. And not just on adult humans, but on animals & small children that don't tend to have placebo effects.

It's one thing to sell a product. It's another thing to make false claims without data.

For the record, I am not a salesman & I make no false claims...Seriously.:?:

Remember, everyone I knew said the same thing about cannabis for decades.. and I'm seeing it with theanine as well...

I, for one, never believed that about Cannabis due to my massive experimentation with the plant.

As for theanine, I am not surprised in the least bit. For a couple decades I managed supplement departments in large health food stores & the hype that would accompany many supplements was ridiculously misleading & could not be construed as harm reduction.

.. it feels like you are trying to make a shameless plug back to your product line on a thread that is intended to be used for harm reduction....

My intention is always harm reduction. If that is not evident, then I apologize.

Remember please again though that the products I have mentioned are not in any way "my products". These are very old medicines that have stood the test of time. They are available from hundreds of different companies world wide.

 

[Doc Buxin]

A proprietary blend of
Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae
Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis
Rhizoma Acori Tatarinowii
Concha Margaritifera Usta
Caulis Polygoni Multiflori
Cortex Albiziae
Semen Cuscutae Chinensis
Herba Ecliptae Prostratae
Fructus Ligustri Lucidi
Radix Rehmanniae Glutinosae

First of all, whoever made this list is not being forthright with the amounts of each herb in the formula, which I do not condone. A good-quality product will at least give the % of each herb if not the exact weight in g/mg for each.

That being said I will oblige you joedirt, but don't say that I didn't warn you.

An Shen Bu Xin Wan ("Calm Shen Tonify Heart Pill" )

Subdues yang, invigorates blood, settles the heart, secures the kidneys, calms shen. Use for disturbed shen due to a weakened heart-kidney relationship causing rising yang with symptoms of insomnia, vivid or uncomfortable dreaming, palpitation, dizziness or restlessness with anxiety.
There may also be cases which include chest pain or oppression. Can be used for manic episodes, nightmares and hallucinations.

Comments:There are numerous prescriptions using the Chinese name An Shen Bu Xin Wan, all of which combine yin & blood tonics with a heavy sedating mineral source medicinal. Some versions strengthen kidney qi by combining Cuscuta (Tu Su Zi) & Eclipta (Han Lian Cao). When the kidney energy is strong, it roots the yang, that is, it brings rising yang energy back to the kidney. Margaritifera (Zhen Zhu Mu or Mother-of-pearl)-which comprises sometimes as much as 50% of the formula- subdues ascendant yang, while Salvia (Dan Shen) moves the heart blood. It is indicated for stubborn insomnia, nightmares & extreme anxiety. It may be more helpful in insomnia in older patients than other nourishing formulas.

Caution:Prolonged use of Margaritifera (Zhen Zhu Mu) may injure spleen qi, leading to digestive disturbance including indigestion or gastric pain. Monitor & limit use if necessary.

Caution:DURING PREGNANCY. Any herbal prescription used during pregnancy should be administered & monitored by a qualified practitioner.

Purity:Some brands meet Australian, American, Canadian & European GMP standards. Do research to find what brands those are.

Packing & Dosage: Bottles of 300 pills, each 216 mg. Take 15 pills, 3 x day. Bottles of 100 pills. Take 10 pills, 2 x day. (Dosage can be increased to 12 pills if needed.)

 

[joedirt]

Have you tested this?

Yes. Many times over long periods of time. For days, weeks, even months, years.

Have you taken a daily dose for a week or longer and then abruptly stopped?

Yes, I have, many times.

Have you scientifically tested his concoctions well enough to boldly say, "they generally don't cause rebound"...

Yes. And not just on adult humans, but on animals & small children that don't tend to have placebo effects.

Data? Or source link would be ideal here. That way people can verify it... you know we are just two random people talking on a drug forum... No one should take our words for it.. IF there is actual science it would be beneficial to know about. I'd also take it more seriously my self.

...can you describe the mechanism of action of each of the individual herbs in this concoction?

I can, if you wish, but you might not be able to take anything away from it since it is all in Eastern medicine lingo which is light years away from Western medicine lingo. It took me quite a while to wrap my mind around the Eastern concepts, even while being immersed in it from Hong Kong to Sri Lanka & many places in between.

Eastern lingo is fine... But science is real. All herbs still have actual biological effects that western science can in fact measure and quantify. So hiding behind eastern lingo is kinda weak. Especially if there have been studies on both animals and humans.. So what are the mechanisms of actions, what are their primary metabolites?

How do these herbs interact with other herbs or other drugs?

The only drug category that one does want to be careful with mixing these formulas with is the prescription blood-thinner category, e.g. Coumadin, Warfarin, etc.

That is useful information to know about when recommending herbal concoctions to people. I wonder if it's really the only interaction one has to be worried about though? Has this concoction gone through toxicology trials? Likely no right? I'd guess it is most likely safe for the vast majority of people, except that one person on... you get my point.

Remember please again though that the products I have mentioned are not in any way "my products". These are very old medicines that have stood the test of time. They are available from hundreds of different companies world wide.

I don't have a problem with old medicines at all. I do however expect that they can stand up to modern science.. and truth is I don't actually know about this collection of herb. I'm not judging it either. I was just shedding some light on why people should be concerned with it.

If you aren't making a plug back your product then my apologies in that regard. This is however still a thread about theanine rebound and we are now many posts away from that... So if harm reduction is important to you then let this thread be for theanine. Start another thread for the herbal concoction. At this point this thread is hijacked and deviating significantly from the primary topic.

 

[Doc Buxin]

If you aren't making a plug back your product then my apologies in that regard. This is however still a thread about theanine rebound and we are now many posts away from that... So if harm reduction is important to you then let this thread be for theanine. Start another thread for the herbal concoction. At this point this thread is hijacked and deviating significantly from the primary topic.

My sincere apologies about "hijacking" your thread. That was not at all my intention.

I have dedicated my entire adult life to what you are calling "harm reduction" & take serious issue with marketing & sales people who push products that they have no clue about other than it can make them lots of $$$.

I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding your issues with l-theanine & considering the marketing buzz surrounding that particular substance nowadays, I believe that it's a healthy thing to talk about the possible rebound effects from it.

Peace.

 

[Jin]

Theanine /ˈθiːəniːn/, also known as L-γ-glutamylethylamide and N5-ethyl-L-glutamine (see box for more synonyms), is an amino acid analogue of the proteinogenic amino acids L-L-glutamate and L-glutamine and is found primarily in particular plant and fungal species. It was discovered as a constituent of a green tea in 1949; in 1950 it was isolated from gyokuro leaves, which have high theanine content.[3] Appearance of the name "theanine" without a prefix can be understood to imply the L-enantiomer; this is the form found in fresh teas and in some, but not all human dietary supplements; the opposite D-enantiomer has far less studied pharmacologic properties, but is present in racemic chemical preparations, and substantially in some studied theanine supplements.

As an analogue of glutamate and glutamine, the theanine in common preparations (teas, enantiomer supplements, etc.) is absorbed in the small intestine after oral ingestion; its hydrolysis is to L-glutamate and ethylamine and occurs both in the intestine and liver. It can also cross the blood–brain barrier intact, and register pharmacological effects directly.In Japan, L-Theanine has been approved for use in all foods, including herb teas, soft drinks, desserts, etc. with some restrictions applying to infant foods.[4][5] It provides a unique brothy or savory (umami) flavor to green tea infusions. It is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as an ingredient by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and is sold as a dietary supplement in the US. However, the German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment, an agency of their Federal Ministry of Food and Agriculture, has objected to the addition of isolated theanine to beverages.

In Japan, L-Theanine has been approved for use in all foods, including herb teas, soft drinks, desserts, etc. with some restrictions applying to infant foods.[4][5] It provides a unique brothy or savory (umami) flavor to green tea infusions. It is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as an ingredient by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and is sold as a dietary supplement in the US. However, the German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment, an agency of their Federal Ministry of Food and Agriculture, has objected to the addition of isolated theanine to beverages.

Theanine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jin]

How safe is it?
Contraindications

None well established.
Pregnancy/nursing

Information regarding safety and efficacy in pregnancy and lactation is lacking.
Interactions

None well documented.
Side Effects

Few adverse reactions have been reported. Adverse reactions recorded in human studies using tea extracts include headache, dizziness, and GI symptoms.
Toxicities

Theanine is sold in the United States as a dietary supplement and has been granted GRAS (generally recognized as safe) status by the Food and Drug Administration.

References

L-theanine. Review of Natural Products. Facts &Comparisons Online. April 2010. Accessed
April 20, 2010

L-Theanine Uses, Benefits & Side Effects - Drugs.com Herbal Database

Learn about the uses and potential benefits of L-Theanine including dosage guidelines, side effects, interactions and safety/efficacy ratings.

www.drugs.com

 

[joedirt]

Yes Jin, this information is plastered all over the internet...and honestly copy and posting the wiki entry doesn't really serve this conversation at all. Most certainly anyone that is interested in theanine rebound will have already read all the glowing reviews about how it is "oh so amazing".

Doesn't change the fact that a growing number of us are in fact experiencing real issues with it in spite of the theanine circle jerk. No amount of text on a wiki page, or scientific publications will change the fact that some of us, probably more than realize it, are having quite adverse rebound reactions to it.

So you and others that are reading this thread now have a choice. You can trust wiki and the other blogs touting this as a miracle drug without downside, or you can take into account experience reports from people in a community you trust.


Lastly, to be blunt the Japanese equivalent of the FDA made a horrible mistake. Anytime a food additive can cause reactions like this, even if it is only a small subset of the population is a bad idea. BTW Germany was wise enough to not allow this.

Basically Theanine is addictive. It is known to cause dopamine release (All addictive drugs do) and it causes a rebound effect in some of us...likely far more than a some of us.



In fact I'd like to make an open challenge to everyone that thinks the rebound is BS

Take 200mg theanine 2 a day for 7 day's and the abruptly stop.

No need for wiki, no need for studies in labs. Just run the test yourselves just as I did.

The more people that are willing to actually run this experiment the more real data we are actually going to get. Unless of course you are willing to blindly trust the Japanese version of the FDA and the blogosphere... I for one am not. I don't really even fully trust the USA FDA...

 

[Infectedstyle]

i will do ur test in the future. I believe i've ordered some online. Awaiting shipments.

this thread honestly just made me want to try it even more! ^^

I've heared rumors that 'green tea' is unhealthy so this information must be related.

 

[joedirt]

i will do ur test in the future. I believe i've ordered some online. Awaiting shipments.

this thread honestly just made me want to try it even more! ^^

I've heared rumors that 'green tea' is unhealthy so this information must be related.

Green tea unhealthy? No I drink green tea every day and it has definitely mood boosting qualities and overall health benefits. Theanine content in green tea is around 25-40mg... See link in initial post. The so called standard theanine dose of 200mg is 4-8 times as high as a cup of tea. Then to boot many are recommending it 2X or more times a day which puts the theanine dose 8-16X or higher than a cup of tea..

It is definitely dose related. Sure I feel a drop in mood in the morning when I first get out of bed. It is probably a combination of caffeine withdrawal and theanine withdrawal. It however it's overly concerning.. a cup of tea fixes this...as does ironically a theanine pill.

Again I'm not slamming theanine. It has real use. I'm just highlighting that drugs that work this well will almost alway's have adverse effects. Those effects are likely to manifest in some more than others.. In general anxiolytics are known to cause rebound anxiety in those using them. Theanine was no different for me..

It would actually be good to try and set up an actual study out of this were a standardized anxiety test is used 1 week before supplementation, during week of supplementation, and 1 week after supplementation. But getting people on board with a full 3 week study could be hard...

So yes infected run the experiment and report back. The more data the better.

Thanks

 

[Jin]

Yes Jin, this information is plastered all over the internet...and honestly copy and posting the wiki entry doesn't really serve this conversation at all

it was about bringing the thread back on track , also so many unnecessary questions about nothing was quite frustrating and derailed the thread further

Doesn't change the fact that a growing number of us are in fact experiencing real issues with it in spite of the theanine circle jerk. No amount of text on a wiki page, or scientific publications will change the fact that some of us, probably more than realize it, are having quite adverse rebound reactions to it.

So you and others that are reading this thread now have a choice. You can trust wiki and the other blogs touting this as a miracle drug without downside, or you can take into account experience reports from people in a community you trust

yes that is why

Few adverse reactions have been reported. Adverse reactions recorded in human studies using tea extracts include headache, dizziness, and GI symptoms

L-Theanine Uses, Benefits & Side Effects - Drugs.com Herbal Database

all this info was posted so if by chance this would have been missed , this could now be understood at depth

if people do read all this data before consuming theanine , than it would be silly to consume it considering adverse reactions have been reported

nontheless spirit of adventure will always push through , perhaps that was it

its anyways silly to put any chemical in the body on a whim , the body makes all its chemicals and there is hardly any need for outside intervention

if people do a little bit of research before rather than later , there would be no need of this

edit : also its best to include all this data in the beginning of the thread , so people might know what theanine is before getting into other details , basicly substance information should precede other details

 

[joedirt]

its best to include all this data in the beginning of the thread , so people might know what theanine is before getting into other details , basicly substance information should precede other details

That is a good point Jin. I did create this thread rather half hazardly.

My apologies again as I misread your intent just as I did Doc's.
I thought you were just trying to link back the information that shows theanine is all good.

So I misread both of your intentions and I am sincerely sorry for that.

Peace

 

[Jin]

brother joedirt , apologies from this side aswell

not because of the theanine info ,( not promoting it )

but because of the attitude and egoism in words spoken so far , its there

working on it , will take time , but hopefully the ego will one day subside