They ate mushrooms and yet... they killed kids. Makes you wonder...

[clouds]

I think that this guy basically outlines the relevance of entheogens in western culture as opposed to the relevance of them in tribal societies..he makes alot of sense.

Yeah, interesting talk... specially when he says that some Ayahuasca curanderos take sexual advantage of naive European girls seeking for a spiritual experience.
See? It's about education, personality, expectations and experience. Not only about drug taking. These curanderos (the ones he talks about) are not full of light and love.

Minute 3:10.

 

[jamie]

well ok not dont with this thread:d

Of course that goes on..Ive seen some even more rediculous things done by shamans and sorcerors in documentaries etc when I was studyign that stuff at school..its all the programming. Metaprogramming is one thing that I am extremely interested in.

You know who else took mescaline and LSD?..alot of it too..L.Ron Hubbard.

The thing about psychedelics is that they really do dissolve boundries..boundries are one of the main things that cause people to believe such silly dogmatic ideas that plage humanity today..both religous and cultural..there should be the proper structures put into place where people cant use these things with programming new realities in mind, trancending their old limiting boundries..with a psychotheraputic model in mind. Until then people have to make due with what they have..unfortunatily that means kids getting ahold of these things wanting to just get loaded, and people dissolving their egos without the knowledge and expience needed for proper reintegration..that can most definatily lead to delusion.

In some ways I see the whole thing as a new front..and its unavoidable..I dont doubt for one second that tucked away in some government facility there are highly trained people that can basically be called sorcerors or brujos that are administered these things all the time. Why wouldnt there be? You think there going to let all of us have all the fun? MK-Ultra must have led into something.

 

[amor_fati]

Hitler used Mescaline (this is documented at Erowid). Obviously, it didn't make him full of "light and love". Instead, under the influence, he was witnessed communicating with Dark Powers, and unseen Entities - and who the hell knows what else.

He also used a hell of a lot of amphetamine, unless I'm mistaken...not disagreeing with your overall point though, just putting it in perspective.

For someone like Hitler, Mescaline expanded his Ego and his Will to Power.

No offense, but this is gross misrepresentation of Nietzsche's concept of the will to power. In brief, the will to power was conceived as an ubiquitous driving force in all walks of life, not something uniquely attributed in our most base sense of "power," as represented in the likes of Hitler.

 

[RealAwareness]

For someone like Hitler, Mescaline expanded his Ego and his Will to Power.

No offense, but this is gross misrepresentation of Nietzsche;s concept of the will to power. In brief, the will to power was conceived as an ubiquitous driving force in all walks of life, not something uniquely attributed in our most base sense of "power," as represented in the likes of Hitler.

No offense, but no, it does not mispresent Nietzche's concept at all. The will to power for Nietzsche is the driving force in Man - his achievements and drive, his ambition, his heroic efforts to attain the highest status and place possible in life; all are aspects of the will to power. Machtgelüst, the feeling of pleasure at holding power over others, is a concept he covers in much of his writings. But specifically, he (at first) ruled out the Will to Power in most of biological life in The Gay Science; "On the doctrine of the feeling of power", he asserts that it is only in thinking beings, ie, mankind, that will is to be found, or pleasure in power, that cruelty is pleasurable precisely because it is an expression of power. While his defintion for the will to power grew to include all of life, it did not alter his earlier views that the chief driving force of powerful men was the pleasure and dominance over others. How does this conflict with Hitler's behavior?

His concept reaches it's highest expression in the concept of the Ubermenschen, of whom Hitler in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers was chief. So much has been written about the influence of Nietzsche on Nazism that it is impossible to add anything useful to that discussion, except that at least the Nazi's took Nietzsche seriously, and look what you got. I have read a lot of Nietzsche, much in the original German, and find him a ponderous bore. I really don't think Riefenstahl's "The Triumph of The Will" was very far from Nietzsche's vision at all.

 

[amor_fati]

No offense, but no, it is not. The will to power for Nietzsche is the driving force in Man - his achievements and drive, his ambition, his heroic efforts to attain the highest status and place possible in life; all are aspects of the will to power. His concept reaches it's highest expression in the concept of the Ubermenschen, of whom Hitler in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers was chief. So much has been written about the influence of Nietzsche on Nazism that it is impossible to add anything useful to that discussion, except that at least the Nazi's took Nietzsche seriously, and look what you got. I have read a lot of Nietzsche, much in the original German, and find him a ponderous bore. I really don't think Riefenstahl's "The Triumph of The Will" was very far from Nietzsche's vision at all.

I probably shouldn't pursue this, as it strays far off-topic.... The will to power is typically not characterized as a conscious drive, but an underlying impulse behind all venues of life. The slave expresses his will to power as much as the master, though in different ways. The concept of the ubermensch merely grants the will to power trajectory and enables the ranking of values accordingly. It's quite well established within Nietzsche's writings and the more notable writings about him that his use of the term, 'power,' is not in context of political gain or military might, but rather of a deeper psychological conception that indeed figures into the motives for political power, though not so directly as it may seem. Suffice to say that the Nietzsche which the Nazis "took seriously" was not Nietzsche as any avid reader of his works could conceive of him, but Nietzsche as framed by the anti-semites and nationalists of his time, of whom he virulently expressed disgust. Certainly there is a level of congruency between Nietzsche's thought and the manifestations of Nazism, but the immense incongruences could not be more more clearly and concisely outlined than in his own words.

 

[polytrip]

I don't think we can ever understand what the mayans where thinking. Their world must have been so fundamentally different from ours.

 

[ohayoco]

Personally I don't find this surprising, only ayawaska and cactus have Dreamer to better himself. Even these sacraments have been used by warriors (though it's hard for a tribe to always live peacefully when you have neighbouring tribes with different views).

Christian monks and nuns abused and murdered children too- ask the victims of the Canadian residential schools, if you can find their bones. And the Catholic church is still into child abuse. Not excusing the Central Americans by saying this, they did have some rather cruel rituals. I agree new-age types do seem to put the Mayans on too much of a pedastal sometimes.

 

[RealAwareness]

No offense, but no, it is not. The will to power for Nietzsche is the driving force in Man - his achievements and drive, his ambition, his heroic efforts to attain the highest status and place possible in life; all are aspects of the will to power. His concept reaches it's highest expression in the concept of the Ubermenschen, of whom Hitler in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers was chief. So much has been written about the influence of Nietzsche on Nazism that it is impossible to add anything useful to that discussion, except that at least the Nazi's took Nietzsche seriously, and look what you got. I have read a lot of Nietzsche, much in the original German, and find him a ponderous bore. I really don't think Riefenstahl's "The Triumph of The Will" was very far from Nietzsche's vision at all.

I probably shouldn't pursue this, as it strays far off-topic.... The will to power is typically not characterized as a conscious drive, but an underlying impulse behind all venues of life. The slave expresses his will to power as much as the master, though in different ways. The concept of the ubermensch merely grants the will to power trajectory and enables the ranking of values accordingly. It's quite well established within Nietzsche's writings and the more notable writings about him that his use of the term, 'power,' is not in context of political gain or military might, but rather of a deeper psychological conception that indeed figures into the motives for political power, though not so directly as it may seem. Suffice to say that the Nietzsche which the Nazis "took seriously" was not Nietzsche as any avid reader of his works could conceive of him, but Nietzsche as framed by the anti-semites and nationalists of his time, of whom he virulently expressed disgust. Certainly there is a level of congruency between Nietzsche's thought and the manifestations of Nazism, but the immense incongruences could not be more more clearly and concisely outlined than in his own words.

Perhaps. I am probably letting my understanding of Nazism unduly influence my understanding of Nietzsche, and will concede that his writings were twisted by the Nazis, as they tended to twist almost everything. I do admire the fact that Nietzsche stood against the anti-antisemitism of the time; it is one of Histories great ironies that the Nazi party would use the writings of someone who hated antisemtism to justify their antisemitism. Antisemitism is something I have studied fairly in depth, so the few serious intellectuals and thinkers who stood against it always stand out as lights in the darkness, so to speak. He is a difficult writer, as are many German intellectuals. On par with Kant.

 

[universecannon]

You could flip flop this anyway you want
'Isn't it interesting that the maya took mushrooms and yet killed people so brutally? - from this we can infer that mushrooms do not generally lead to positive experiences of growth.'
Or, isn't it curious that the maya took mushrooms and developed extremely advanced astrological knowledge, architecture and art? - from this it can be said that mushroom symbiosis propels cultures into a very advanced cosmological understanding and life completely harmonious with the nature of the universe.

You can make up any inference you want but the truth is we really have no idea. One could replace the word "mushroom" with any number of psychedelics and/or foods and activities that they were engaged in throughout their time but either way we don't know for sure the reasons behind their knowledge and activities, or what those even were. They lived and took mushrooms in completely different sets/settings, cultures, ideologies, realities that we can barely begin to imagine - and we don't know how this impacted them. So continuously pointing out that they did psychedelics and sometimes engaged in acts that we consider in our cultural mindset as taboo is not very useful in terms of trying to conceptualize what these tools really do and mean in a larger sense.

The important thing is how they impact you as the individual.. and that we have good evidence that points towards mushrooms having a very positive effect on peoples lives when they go into it with the right knowledge of them in a good set/setting. So sure psychedelic ingestion doesn't automatically lead to a better life, but the percentage may heavily swing in that direction :d

 

[BananaForeskin]

I think it's a misinterpretation of what the OP was saying to rebuke the possibility of a "mushrooms can lead to human sacrifice". It's not about that; the point they're making is that mushrooms don't automatically lead to a peace/love vision of the world. Something that a lot of people believe.

Anyway... one thing to point out regarding the child sacrifice: how do we know they were sacrificing healthy children against their will?
One common anti-Carthage/Baal argument that is frequently made is that children were sacrificed to Baal. Ergo, Baal and the Carthaginians were no good. But that's a far too simplistic view of things. Yes, children were sacrificed to Baal, however, many sources show that the children sacrificed to Baal were either already dead or terminally ill/injured... sacrificing them was considered the merciful thing to do, to return them to Baal because the medical care of the time could do nothing to help them.

I'm not saying that it's a pleasant thing for a culture to do, just that in some circumstances it's more understandable than in others.

And the previously made point about the priest-class being the sacrificers is a good one. Even Nietzsche agreed that priests are usually up to no good

 

[clouds]

Man on mushroom tea performs ritual sacrifice on friend

...saw this terrible (but relevant to this thread) news on dosenation.

 

[eagleeyes]

i don't believe it

 

[MooshyPeaches]

So did the sacrifices work?

 

[wade]

So did the sacrifices work?

absolutely.

 

[live]

SWIM works with written goals/wishlist. One of his goals was to completely clean his soul and to know the truth.

Life has fulfilled his wishes recently, and SWIM was not happy. He realized that one should not know the truth but allow life to be a mystery. And one should not have a completely clean soul, since this makes the experience of limitation pointless...

Psychedelics seem to show individuals shortcuts to their goals or even directly fulfill immaterial wishes. They reinforce that which an individual bears within, and this might be not a constructive intent or belief.

You are right, taking psychedelics does not necessary lead to becoming a loving person.
And, be careful what you wish for!

 

[Metatron]

As Alan Watts stated in The Joyous Cosmology :

"There is no difference in principle between sharpening perception with an external instrument, such as a microscope, and sharpening it with an internal instrument, such as one of these...drugs. If they are an affront to the dignity of the mind, the microscope is an affront to the dignity of the eye and the telephone to the dignity of the ear. Strictly speaking, these drugs do not impart wisdom at all, any more than the microscope alone gives knowledge. They provide the raw materials of wisdom, and are useful to the extent that the individual can integrate what they reveal into the whole pattern of his behavior and the whole system of his knowledge."

 

[kyrolima]

did anybody of you did a real research on mayan history?
Most historical notations about them were done 600 years after they disappeared (at least that is what i've heard).
Which means that it might be possible the mayans didn't sacrifice their children.

I saw this in a german essay on youtube about the mayas and related topics.

 

[polytrip]

The myth that surrounds the discovery of iboga makes you think even more: a woman found iboga and ate it, and thus came into contact with the ancestors, the spirit world. Her husband discovered this and wanted some piece of spirit world-action himself. The spirit's told him that this was OK if he was willing to make a sacrifice...so he than sacrificed his wife.

So this psychedelic drug that is known for it's immense spiritual and healing power is surrounded by this extremely brutal and violent myth. You wouldn't expect that either.

But this myth is originated in african culture, not india, china or the west.
Africa is a continent plagued by wars far more brutal than even the wars that took place in europe in the past century. Childeren are being forced to cut of the genitals of people of other tribes and than forced to eat them...those sort of things.
In a culture that has moral standards that allow for those kind of deeds, you can expect any substance, no matter how wonderfull to be seen in a different light.

I suppose we could say the same thing about the mayans. Totally different context in wich the shrooms where taken.

 

[hyperspacing]

I don't think we can ever understand what the mayans where thinking. Their world must have been so fundamentally different from ours.

Exactly. Imagine this. Your in charge of an ancient(dumb) civilization.. The crops don't produce enough and the people are on the edge of rioting and overthrowing your rule. What do you do? You blame it on the gods and sacrafice the people propogating the social unrest. After a while sacrafice becomes acceptable and you do it whenever you feel like it. We weren't there. We can speculate and make educated guesses but at the end of the day that's all it is. . .guesses. who knows in the future they might dig up a childs body see braces on its teeth and think we tortured kids for fun.

"You cannot judge what you don't understand"

 

[Steely]

Considering the fact that we are all here today in this discussion, on this particular forum, I can safely say that we are here for the same reason; because we made the step to begin change in our lives, and to open our consciousness fully to the universe. That or you or a loved one has already been affected by Spice, or another psychoactive such as Mushies, and you've come here to receive help in understanding this new, awe-inspiring world.

Well, the truth is, with everything in life there will always be people around to abuse it (Shocked and Surprised yet?). It's human nature to lust for more, to want more out of anything. Humans will never cease to be curious about the universe. We can keep on saying how it is better to be apart of the mystery, than it is the know, but we have to remember that what is good for our life, will not be the same for everyone else. Some people are destined to find the answers.

I once shared a hefty amount of Spice with an old friend of mine. He is a college student who, like many others, completely lost his way. He was into abuse of anything, all the time. Acid, Alcohol, Ecstasy, DMX; you name it, he's abused it. So it didn't come as a surprise to me when I found out he was newly addicted to heroin. When I gave him the substance, I knew first hand that he was going to just smoke it all that night at some party with his friends.

I gave him a few guidelines to follow that even if he was too doped up to remember or understand, that hopefully he would see as the right precautions to take when learning to respect and understand and to be at ease with the intensity of Spice. I told him roughly about one breakthrough I had, and he went on and on about how cool it would be to experience a breakthrough with Spice. I was truly hoping that he would find any sort of lesson with Spice, but I knew all along that he would just smoke it, expecting everything, and in the end getting nothing.

Now this does not mean you shouldn't share, because helping others is a huge step in helping yourself. Although I know now for a fact that he didn't get anything from it, I would still share with him again so I can merely give him the opportunity to change. Be patient with people, eventually they will show you their good side. Who knows, maybe someone he shared it with at the party learned a lesson or two about themselves.

There will always be people who think they need to know more, or who feel a need to prove that they can go to the edge and come back in one piece. People whom keep diving so deeply into this crazy world of ours, sometimes forget why they began in the first place.

With the existence of humans comes the endless supply of human stupidity. One inexperienced teenager decides he can handle two dozen hits of acid, and eventually finds himself standing on his roof due to lack of care from his friends/babysitter(s) either when it was watching him during the trip to make sure he doesn't end up there, or preventing him from taking such a dose in the first place. All the meanwhile we are placing blame on each other for not taking better care of him, when he decides he can fly. Human stupidity exists, and I wish I could say it is hard to come by, but it is readily available to the masses (Go on about what ever reason you think that may be). The response is generally to prove that in controlled environments, these plants can be very good for you and your well being. But in reality, we don't need to control the substance or our setting, we need to control ourselves.