THH - Harmala Holy Grail

[The Traveler]

Burnt, as I argued with you before, while I concede maybe in some cases some people may simply have some red contamination in the first place, I have seen it myself that something red can form from very clean harmalas. As I said in that link, while I dont have access to analytical equipment, a few times I purified my harmalas obsessively with endless amounts of freebase precipitations to get something like this:

File:12.jpg - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

And once I made an experiment of redissolving these harmalas in warm IPA (which didnt dissolve them too good), and re-evaporating. After repeating this a few times, each time it was getting more and more red. Doesnt this point out that there is some sort of reaction, possibly oxidation? If not, where can the red be coming from if there is absolutely no other process being done other than redissolve and re-evaporate? I remember ron claimed this happened with redissolving harmaline hcl in alcohol.

That stuff does look clean. But its still possible red component is 'hiding' within that powder. Another potential test would be to try to destroy all the harmaline with alcohol but who would want to waste it

I have some nice off white powder from a rue extraction. The off white powder came from an extraction that didn't use vinegar or any other acid. When I did the same type of extraction with vinegar, when the vinegar was added the liquid turned almost instantly red.

I will now dissolve a little bit of this off white powder in alcohol. If it doesn't turn red I will add some vinegar too. I keep you all updates.

UPDATE: Neither adding the alcohol or vinegar made my rue extract turn red. I will now let it sit for a night to see if something changes.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[ouro]

This is a very simple test to see if the OP has a new substance: Do the same procedure again without the reducing agent and see if something precips at ph7.2. Then, try the same process again without adding in the harmaline at the start and see if the lower ph precip comes from the other reagents. If the low ph precip does not come from the initial materials separately there is good evidence that a new compound is being formed by this process. Just a thought... I also appreciate the experimenting and wish you luck

 

[professor8]

Ok so I’ve done some more trials on converting Harmaline/Harmine to THH.
I found that as much as 40-60% of Harmaline/Harmine gets destroyed in the process or my original sample is only 40-60% pure and the process removes the impurities during the conversion. This seems most likely

Reacting for shorter periods was a waste and longer periods also proved ineffectual for larger yields. A gentle boil with reflux and infusions of Ascorbic acid water (1g/100ml) in 30min intervals over a 2 hour period was sufficient for conversion.

I took 100mg of THH from the last trial and dissolved it in 200ml of water with 20ml of vinegar, Heated & salted it to saturation. I then removed it from the heat, decanted and added 40ml of water.

This is a trick I have discovered when salting your alks down to get bigger crystals in the water. A fully salt saturated medium will cause crystals to precipitate almost immediately but if the solution is only 80% saturated you will have bigger crystals that just take a bit longer to form.

Harmine/Harmaline crystal grow like this after salting below the saturation threshold and allowed to grow overnight.

Anyway I got 2 distinct layers of crystal growth after 6 hours as you can see here

This is unusual and begs me to ask: Are the two distinct layers 2 different harmalas?

After filtering & drying, I bioassayed 50mg subling of the combined layers (yeah, I know, should've pipetted off each layer individually; I'll do it next time )

I got effects very similar to THH HCl (sourced from FV as a control, fully aware of the controversy but this sample is very good). Effects after 30 min were very blissful & of a high vibration and it feels like it might contain as much as 25% Harmine but the taste is much milder than Harmine acetate (which is very, very bitter). Also no sluggish or stony Harmaline effects and spice vaped afterward DID have the Crystalline World Effect I attribute to THH HCl.

This is what I am looking for and pleased to have found a method to make this substance.

It is not my intention to make pure THH but develop a simple, kitchen friendly method for THH conversion so negligible Salt content & Harmine in the mix is fine by me. It is an excellent meditation aid & extremely effective with Spice OR Changa.

Travel Light

 

[burnt]

Ok so I’ve done some more trials on converting Harmaline/Harmine to THH.
I found that as much as 40-60% of Harmaline/Harmine gets destroyed in the process or my original sample is only 40-60% pure and the process removes the impurities during the conversion. This seems most likely

Where are these numbers coming from? Are they based on weights?

I remain skeptical this process is making THH but only way to find out is to try it...

One question. Does SWIY use the yellow mostly harmaline as starting material or just cruder rue extracts?

 

[professor8]

mean weight from 4 trials.

I usually do 4 saltings, a Na2CO3 precip and then 2 more saltings followed by a NaHCO3 precip for Harmine & Na2CO3 precip for Harmaline; I filter at each step with cotton or coffee filters.

Its a ritual that works well for me

op here: Golden Rue(L) Extractions - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

In the THH conversion trials I used Harmine, Harmaline, & separated Harmine/Harmaline and found the Harmaline to give the best yields.

I will be doing an extraction on caapi leaf solution based to 7 and see what precips and what effects come of it. I beleive there is more THH in the leaves, they give me a much lighter feeling than the vine.

 

[endlessness]

Burnt just showed that this separation is not accurate as you are supposing:

harmaloid purity - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

This means there is probably a lot of harmine in your harmaline, which would explain the early precipitation.

Also you are still talking about FV's THH as if its THH, but its pretty proven that its not, did you check the new subforum about it? So your subjective feeligns of 'this batch being good' arent really any scientific/reliable measure.

You seem to totally disregard the possibility of placebo, and I wonder why, if its been shown again and again how much placebo and self-suggestion can influence effects of substances.

Would be interesting if you did the test ouro suggested.

 

[burnt]

I will be doing an extraction on caapi leaf solution based to 7 and see what precips and what effects come of it. I beleive there is more THH in the leaves, they give me a much lighter feeling than the vine.

All kinds of compounds could precipitate non alkaloids included. Caapi leaf is probably 'lighter' because the concentration is so much less of alkaloids in general.

I dunno we have no direct evidence that this absorbic acid method works at all. But who knows it might but until more proof is there, there is no reason to believe it does.

 

[Apoc]

Professor, thank you very much for your sincere effort to bring an effective method to the people. Unfortunately, I am apparently too stupid to even do a basic Manske harmala tek. I tried and all I got was colored salt. lol.

I must say I am really surprised at this whole thh situation. Here's my analysis....

= for many nexians, thh is the harmala holy grail.
= THH is completely legal everywhere in the world.
= As far as I know, flowingvisions is the only place on the planet that supplies thh.
= It has been determined that even flowingvisions thh is likely half, or less than half thh.
= I am really surprised at how hard it is to come by this stuff, despite how much people seem to love it.

To my surprise, it seems even the unofficial experts in this field still have not found a consistent way to extract thh. And NO ONE is supplying it to the wanting community. Who is going to step up and offer this oh so sought after wonderful substance?

I honestly believe that if every law maker in the world took an oral dose of 100mg harmine with 100mg THH, followed by 30mg dmt fumarate, then dmt would not be illegal.... and there would be a lot of very happy law makers.

 

[professor8]

I completely understand the need for proof. For I was once in that space and I rejected anything that that logic dictated would not work; I discounted any assumptions based on subjective feeling and often used words like 'placebo' & 'no'. Over time, peering over skeptic's glasses, my intuition atrophied & my creativity suffered for it.

I learned a lot but discovered little.

Inquiry & discernment are essential tools to the seeker especially when employed with compassion. The Nexxus would be a more fertile & thriving community if new ideas were sprouted in a less hostile environment.

In any event, it is quite easy to dissprove or deny ANY discovery with Pure Science; that has been one of its greatest achievements in the modern age. In this simple experiment I have blazed a trail of discovery and left a well documented path to follow; The breadcrumbs are there for anyone to pickup. Whether or not it works for you is not a measure of my success or abilities but your desire to create something, anything, that helps you to become a better human being, Intention is everything. Lets open up a more creative dialogue that encourages creative experiementation and moves bravely away from dogma.

I say this with respect & love for me fellow seekers and I wish you all good luck in your experiements & Light in your Travels.

Be well,
Prof8

 

[burnt]

There is nothing hostile about curiosity and a scientific pursuit for answers. Realize nothing I saw is to critisize you. I'm simply curious. This is the kind of work I do for a living so I spend all day thinking about this stuff

 

[mumbles]

= THH is completely legal everywhere in the world.

Nope, its illegal in those places with strict analogue laws.

Inquiry & discernment are essential tools to the seeker especially when employed with compassion. The Nexxus would be a more fertile & thriving community if new ideas were sprouted in a less hostile environment.

I woudldn't call it a hostile environment, its just a place were the scientific method is observed and ideas are encouraged to be backed up with evidence. This is for the common good as the pseudoscience and the legitimate ideas are separated out.

 

[narmz]

It seems that this could easily be determined to cause a conversion or not cause a conversion by using a black-light to compare the flourescent emission before and after the procedure? Am I wrong about this? I know that over at the nook they successfully converted harmine to THH using Zinc, and floursecent light showed a distinct change from green glow to blue glow.

 

[endlessness]

How would you know it wasnt simply partial conversion? Or something else happening appart from thh, impurities that change colour, or... ? Seems one of ron's mistakes was exactly relying on these "spot tests".

 

[narmz]

How would you know it wasnt simply partial conversion? Or something else happening appart from thh, impurities that change colour, or... ? Seems one of ron's mistakes was exactly relying on these "spot tests".

You might not know if it was partial conversion, but I'd think it'd be pretty clear if you saw a change in the floursecent color that some sort of conversion was taking place. Harmine and Harmaline both glow green, THH glows blue (this may just be hearsay?) from what i've heard. I am currently looking for refs, I have found plenty of refs regarding floursecent emissions of harman, harmalol, harmine, harmaline, yohimbine, etc, but have yet to find one that mentions THH.

 

[FiorSirtheoir]

I would not call the Nexus a hostile environment. I would have to agree with Burnt, there is no way to know if it is actually THH without a chemical analysis, or using an established reduction method. I forget who it was or where the post is but there was a great explanation as to why harmine could not, and harmaline could be reduced to THH. So, is the opinion that professor8 is most likely simply refining/purifying harmine? If that is the case it would be a good tek to get nailed down.

Now, professor8, this is not to say that your statement about intention does not have weight, however your implication is that your intention is becoming manifest thus causing THH to be reduced. Amit Goswami, a renowned quantum physicist, talks about how sub-atomic and super sub-atomic particles manifest atoms by intent, with an awareness. Are you saying that you have some how figured out how to direct the intent of strings and membranes? I would like to know how you do that. I am not opposed to objective, nor subjective, exploration. Both are tools and serve a great purpose. I do not believe one is greater than the other, but they cross paths; the real and the unreal; the seen and the unseen. I was under the impression that what was being looked for was a tek for reduction.

Now for those of you that have access to chemical analysis, I would implore you to investigate the results of these teks, so we may know, objectively, what is happening. So, professor8, please outline, in detail, SWIY's experimentation - weights, methods, times, temperatures, ph, components, etc... So that those who have access to chemical analysis can repeat exactly what you did and test the results.

Kindest regards to everyone,
Fior

 

[Mydriasis]

In my ignorant opinion the best way to go about this would be as follows:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Extract as clean as possible from syrian rue. Wash away undesirables. Recrystallize compounds. Run TLC to find an eluent that separates the chemicals checking for spots under UV light.

Once a proper eluent is found(I know of one but it requires conc. NH3), then apply column chromatography. Testing with TLC of course as the eluent is collected.

Recrystallize again... Check melting points?

Attempt reduction(don't half ass the procedure, when it calls for a steam bath use a steam bath or other effective means), saving some of the original sample of harmaline(once this is found of course). Apply TLC to the reaction product and compare it with the plate of the 'pure' harmaline(may need new solvent system?). If the spots aren't visible to the naked eye again perhaps UV light can help sort this out. Separate via column chromatography.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course this isn't fool proof, the difference between harmine to harmaline is an saturated bond. The difference between harmaline to tetrahydroharmine is another saturated bond. Tests such as freezing point depression, etc, are useless here. If the evidence is suggestive and it is documented only then, would I recommend even asking one of the professionals to run a sample(real analysis takes time, patience, effort, etc). Melting point would be an excellent addition to this, if one has a thiele tube + capillary + mineral oil + candle + thermometer handy. Although m.p. tests are inconclusive alone.

As soon as I can get my hands on some microscope slides, some kitty litter and a couple grams of Zn, I'll give this a try, completely documented. Ooo transparency what a wonderful thing. Having 'standards'(said loosely) of THH, Harmine, and harmaline/harmadine will be critical for some of the experiments I plan on conducting in the future. So if no one beats me to the punch it will be tested sometime this year.

Yes there is actually a knowledge bubble shrouding this issue, because there is sadly dogmatic green paper involved with beta-carbolines. Go figure their quasi-legal nature employs them to be slung around like wild-fire at excessive prices and cause people to bash heads against one another's. This is why science is great it excludes these filthy things.

I have some other ideas in mind, but no point in sharing them until the meat hits the tenderizer, and a well-done steak comes off the proverbial grill.

 

[byallmeansart]

Burnt just showed that this separation is not accurate as you are supposing:

harmaloid purity - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

This means there is probably a lot of harmine in your harmaline, which would explain the early precipitation.

Also you are still talking about FV's THH as if its THH, but its pretty proven that its not, did you check the new subforum about it? So your subjective feeligns of 'this batch being good' arent really any scientific/reliable measure.

You seem to totally disregard the possibility of placebo, and I wonder why, if its been shown again and again how much placebo and self-suggestion can influence effects of substances.

Would be interesting if you did the test ouro suggested.

Super informative, A+++; would read again

 

[byallmeansart]

= THH is completely legal everywhere in the world.

Nope, its illegal in those places with strict analogue laws.

Inquiry & discernment are essential tools to the seeker especially when employed with compassion. The Nexxus would be a more fertile & thriving community if new ideas were sprouted in a less hostile environment.

I woudldn't call it a hostile environment, its just a place were the scientific method is observed and ideas are encouraged to be backed up with evidence. This is for the common good as the pseudoscience and the legitimate ideas are separated out.

^general sentiment held by most THIS Nexian(s).

 

[Trips]

Sorry,
DEFINITELY not making THH.

A) THH crystals are not long and slender needle crystals like those shown. They are snowflake-ish and fractally. You have purified your original compound somewhat.
B) Ascorbic Acid is definitely not a strong enough reducing agent to blast these double bonds away.
C) ...Where the hell is this H2O2 supposedly coming from? Ascorbic acid acts as an anti-oxidant, as in it 'traps' oxidizing free radicals. It doesn't create sources of them. And even if it did, a free radical is going to oxidize the shit out of everything... not reduce it.
D) Chemistry has replaced alchemy for good reason.

If you are adamant on the identity of your compound, you may send me a small sample and I will scan the NMR printout and post it for all to see. I'll even analyze it Of course, you'll have to take my word for it, unless there are other chemists abound.

 

[Trips]

I'd only need about a milligram.