Thoughts on psychedelics and capitalism?

[jamie]

zealotry:!:

Psychedelics are for all.

 

[dithyramb]

A related topic...

Representatives of the Cofán people have issued a statement about Ayahuasca International - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

The alleged company in the story seems alive and well: Inner Evolution Retreats - Innermastery.eu

 

[Voidmatrix]

This seems to be a nexus of many facets: capitalism, government effect of psychoactive substances, a reinstatement of psychedelics in the pharmaceutical paradigm, as well as social paradigms that are used to intersubjectively percieved these molecules.

While there have been shitty outcome from the medical field around these substances, there's also great progress made due to them. Thank the notable chemists.

While the top dollar is mosts' bottom line, it seems that there are a few individuals out there with an authenticity to stay "true" to these substances and their responsible and revered use.

Hopefully the more governmental and academic acceptance there is, the more the general public will adapt with it's own intrigue and acceptance.

Just have to hope for the best.

One love

 

[VibeSurfer]

Do you guys sit well with the idea of profiting from psychedelics? Do you think these new startups have their hearts in the right places?

Enormous profits from psychedelics have been a real thing since the acid revolution. I doubt the profits these medicine companies produce even slightly rival the largest clandestine groups or individuals who operate outside of the law. If anything, they've taken the path of the most resistance to get access to breadcrumbs. I have no animosity for any them.

I think there are more pervasive pressures, of a capitalist nature and of not, that have negative implications for psychedelics.

 

[Ramma]

psychedelics are already a venture capitalist persuit. You pick which hut you go to in peru, spend on aeroplane, taxi, the hut...

Didnt Chelsea Handler do it last year and filmed a Netflix special? Hell, I even know a middle aged women in my own town who went down to peru and got hyperslapped. Now she hates it so she just gives her money to some hairy old guru in town she has an unhealthy obsesion with.

And its only gonna get worse. Now that Tony Robbins smoked dmt his next book coming out is going to motivate people--mostly real estate agents going through a mid life crisis--to unlock 'their hidden spiritual potential' in order to motivate and 'inspire' them to sell real estate to rich housewives that want a house with a view, nice exposure and a good finish on the kitchen counter...but they arent just selling real estate, theyre 'unleashing their inner Mother Earth Goddess Power to make the earth a better place', cause at the end of the day we all have to help eachother out, ya know?

 

[dithyramb]

Psychedelics or ancient sacred medicines are not for everybody. Marketing them is messed up.

From https://innermastery.eu/ancestral-remedies/#iboga

"This natural medicine has been used by Bwiti, an initiatory tradition that comes from the purest branch of the mystic schools of ancient Egypt. "

Yeah, throw Ancient Egypt in there to make it more sexy.

"If you feel that you are in a moment in your life where the structures and patterns you created, or were created in your interior, have already run their course and that you are carrying the suffering that they have left in you, then this is definitely the moment to take Iboga."

Definitely, most certainly the angels are pointing you to this company!

For those who don't know, this is the company of Alberto Varela who received widespread denouncement from academics for appropriating the medicine of the Cofan tribe with a lot of wrongdoings, getting in a serious feud with the tribe.

It's a good example case of the wider story. Traditional medicine keepers: "this is sacred medicine not to be handled lightly, carelessly marketed, stripped from its true context." Modern entrepreneur: "Ayahuasca belongs to humanity, I know better than you."

 

[Tomtegubbe]

psychedelics are already a venture capitalist persuit. You pick which hut you go to in peru, spend on aeroplane, taxi, the hut...

Didnt Chelsea Handler do it last year and filmed a Netflix special? Hell, I even know a middle aged women in my own town who went down to peru and got hyperslapped. Now she hates it so she just gives her money to some hairy old guru in town she has an unhealthy obsesion with.

And its only gonna get worse. Now that Tony Robbins smoked dmt his next book coming out is going to motivate people--mostly real estate agents going through a mid life crisis--to unlock 'their hidden spiritual potential' in order to motivate and 'inspire' them to sell real estate to rich housewives that want a house with a view, nice exposure and a good finish on the kitchen counter...but they arent just selling real estate, theyre 'unleashing their inner Mother Earth Goddess Power to make the earth a better place', cause at the end of the day we all have to help eachother out, ya know?

I'm honestly afraid what DMT will do to people with compromised morals in pursuit of wealth and power. There is a dark side to DMT which can amplify grandiose aspects in your personality.

There is also a possibility of doing real spiritual damage to your soul and people you associate with if you choose to follow some dark entities who promise you the world.

 

[Ramma]

Traditional medicine keepers: "this is sacred medicine not to be handled lightly, carelessly marketed, stripped from its true context." Modern entrepreneur "ayahuasca belongs to humanity, I know better than you."

Anyone whos worked retail or any service industry knows pyschedelics arent for EVERYONE...Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are dumber than THAT.

 

[dragonrider]

But are you saying now that psychedelics shouldn't be legal?

Because there's two ways something can be legal: heavily regulated, or unregulated. In the latter case it automatically becomes a commodity on the free-market. In the first case it may also become that, like pharmaceuticals are. Or it may become a very government sanctioned article, like a peyote cactus that you are only allowed to use if you are an official member of the native american church. So basically you would need a government permit to use it then.

Now psychedelics became illegal because some reactionary people didn't want hippies to use it.
And it looks a bit like now, some hippies want it to stay illegal because they don't want people who may be reactionary to use it.

But i don't think it is up to us to judge whether someone has the right intententions.

These arguments look a bit tribal to me. Like:"we don't want to share this with the other tribes, we only want our kind of people to have it".

What tony robins does with it, is tony robins responsibility. What real estate agents do with it, is their responsibility.

It is just like any other great tool. Some people use the internet to seek knowledge, others use it to watch porn.

 

[jamie]

What is a"traditional medicine keeper"? I bet there is no such thing outside of the western worlds fetish with such things. The term hardly makes sense. We can not have this discussion, and expect it to really be taken seriously when the language is charged with all these terms that WE made up.

From the mouth of a first nations peyote roadman, "the medicine is for everyone, not everyone is for the medicine."

That's one person. You can find many others who wont agree. Not all people of one group agree on everything. Go figure, the world is a complicated place.

 

[jamie]

Traditional medicine keepers: "this is sacred medicine not to be handled lightly, carelessly marketed, stripped from its true context." Modern entrepreneur "ayahuasca belongs to humanity, I know better than you."

Anyone whos worked retail or any service industry knows pyschedelics arent for EVERYONE...Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are dumber than THAT.

You sound you got your head pretty far up your own behind in some of your posts really. How huge is your ego?

 

[Ramma]

Is anything ever really 'legal' under the rule of a tyranic authoritarian state?

 

[jamie]

But are you saying now that psychedelics shouldn't be legal?

Because there's two ways something can be legal: heavily regulated, or unregulated. In the latter case it automatically becomes a commodity on the free-market. In the first case it may also become that, like pharmaceuticals are. Or it may become a very government sanctioned article, like a peyote cactus that you are only allowed to use if you are an official member of the native american church. So basically you would need a government permit to use it then.

Now psychedelics became illegal because some reactionary people didn't want hippies to use it.
And it looks a bit like now, some hippies want it to stay illegal because they don't want people who may be reactionary to use it.

But i don't think it is up to us to judge whether someone has the right intententions.

These arguments look a bit tribal to me. Like:"we don't want to share this with the other tribes, we only want our kind of people to have it".

What tony robins does with it, is tony robins responsibility. What real estate agents do with it, is their responsibility.

It is just like any other great tool. Some people use the internet to seek knowledge, others use it to watch porn.

I agree that it feels to me like there is a tribal component. I don't think it is the only factor and I for sure have huge issues with compass and others going down the patent route. The psychedelic cultures have existed largely in the underground, connected to adjacent music and art scenes etc. It always felt mysterious, exotic and thrilling to be a part of. I can understand that people feel like something is being taken from them sort of. People really identify with it at points. I did at one point. It's tribal because for many people I guess it is sort of a tribe.

I suspect many people feel as if that identity is being taken away, or watered down as it dilutes off into the mainstream. It's likely not very helpful, the way companies like compass as approaching it. It facilitates more suspicion and less openness.

Mushrooms are very easy to grow. Cacti is very easy to grow. There is no good reason why such things should not be grown and made available for all of humanity if/when they choose. When I take mushrooms, the message is never that this experience is just for me and others like me, and not all the other stupid humans I don't really like. I have just never once had that message from mushrooms. It's the opposite.

 

[Ramma]

No, I dont have a tribe and dont care. But I wouldnt like to see DMT being talked about by the man who wrote Money: Master the Game. IM SORRY that I like to hear about DMT from T Mckenna and Dennis, or a shaman or from a religious text. I didnt know it was my obligation as a citizen to take everyone seriously no matter what theyve been doing for the past 40 years. I think the lines are so blurred now a days. Everyone wants to be everything. Cause the Youre Fired guy was president and Kayne West wants to be president and people just fail to realize how absurd that is. Honestly, it would hurt a bit to see DMT as portrayed by the media if it were to go widespread. It would get it all wrong, it would politicize it, it will project onto it its own delusions.

 

[dreamer042]

Let's get one thing straight off the bat.

Plants grow freely of this earth. Nature makes no distinctions about your race, culture, color, creed, or perceived self-importance. Those that seek the mysteries of the plant, will be bestowed full unrestricted access to the mysteries of the plant.

Those that wish to DIY can continue to do as they've always done. Please support decriminalize nature in your region, grow your own, share the seeds, spread the word, and teach the skills in your own community. Keep pushing those principles this forum is founded upon.

There is however, a wider swath of the population that this targets. All those people who don't, won't, or can't DIY it. Those people that are flying halfway around the world to have some predator take their money to touch their private parts while they are at their most vulnerable. Those who buy unregulated black market materials from dodgy dealers. All those that have been seriously damaged by the uneducated, unregulated, underground pursuit of these experiences.

We have here an opportunity to change all that, and that's huge.

I want to reiterate, we have nothing to lose in this. No one is taking away your ability to spawn a monotub. This is simply bottoming out a whole bunch of nasty predatory industries enabled by prohibition and providing people a safe and sanctioned way to have these experiences, integrate them properly, and gain the most benefit from them.

 

[dithyramb]

Mushrooms (in my experience, liberty caps) do indeed have a very "socialist", "siblinghood-of-all" spirit. Perhaps that's why psilocybin is on the front line in this process. Each entheogen is unique. They may all be Unitive but not all have absolute openness. Some are more fragile or serious than others.

Though I am reminded here of Maria Sabina's remark that the mushrooms lost their healing power after being popularized to the world. What did she really mean there? Was she simply misled?

Being made legal and available is good. Capitalist marketing is another thing.

"Traditional medicine keeper" is a blanket term but it is not imaginary (much better than the word "shaman" I would say). Indigenous cultures which have these practices have their own terms for initiated practitioners and social structures and rituals around their medicines.

"The medicine is for everybody but not everybody is for the medicine." Thats what I am saying. Not everybody is compatible (I won't say "ready" as that implies an inferiority-superiority and that eventually everyone has to do the medicines) with the medicine.

 

[dragonrider]

Let's get one thing straight off the bat.

Plants grow freely of this earth. Nature makes no distinctions about your race, culture, color, creed, or perceived self-importance. Those that seek the mysteries of the plant, will be bestowed full unrestricted access to the mysteries of the plant.

Those that wish to DIY can continue to do as they've always done. Please support decriminalize nature in your region, grow your own, share the seeds, spread the word, and teach the skills in your own community. Keep pushing those principles this forum is founded upon.

There is however, a wider swath of the population that this targets. All those people who don't, won't, or can't DIY it. Those people that are flying halfway around the world to have some predator take their money to touch their private parts while they are at their most vulnerable. Those who buy unregulated black market materials from dodgy dealers. All those that have been seriously damaged by the uneducated, unregulated, underground pursuit of these experiences.

We have here an opportunity to change all that, and that's huge.

I want to reiterate, we have nothing to lose in this. No one is taking away your ability to spawn a monotub. This is simply bottoming out a whole bunch of nasty predatory industries enabled by prohibition and providing people a safe and sanctioned way to have these experiences, integrate them properly, and gain the most benefit from them.

Your concerns are valid. It's exactly these kind of things that are being adressed in the video in this thread.

I don't know the answer to this question.
Is it a substance related issue, or is it the lack of regulations in the busines of alternative medicine?

Healthcare is not a busines like any other. Even in the most capitalist nations it is never fully unregulated.

But i don't think there will ever be sufficient regulation in the field of alternative medicine, exactly because of the predicate "alternative".

So in that sense, psychedelic therapy becoming mainstream would probably be a good thing.
Because you would have standards and protocolls. People could lose their permit to call themselves psychedelic healer, etc.

Till that time, open discussion on people like martin ball or tony robins on places like this are the only thing we have to protect the vulnerable.

 

[dithyramb]

That anyone who picks a plant from the ground and somehow ingests it, even with the best delivery system, will be granted full access to it's mysteries is not true. It's like saying anybody who goes to a physics lecture will be able to make sense and use of the material presented. The very DMT that is at the heart of this forum is notorious for "force feeding" (in a lot of experiencers language) information that is too much and/or the person is not ready for / willing to ponder or comprehend.

I share the concern on dark patterns playing out in the psychedelic healing world. I hope and pray that the story steers to a healthier direction.

 

[Seeingisbelieving]

Let's get one thing straight off the bat.

Plants grow freely of this earth. Nature makes no distinctions about your race, culture, color, creed, or perceived self-importance. Those that seek the mysteries of the plant, will be bestowed full unrestricted access to the mysteries of the plant.

Those that wish to DIY can continue to do as they've always done. Please support decriminalize nature in your region, grow your own, share the seeds, spread the word, and teach the skills in your own community. Keep pushing those principles this forum is founded upon.

There is however, a wider swath of the population that this targets. All those people who don't, won't, or can't DIY it. Those people that are flying halfway around the world to have some predator take their money to touch their private parts while they are at their most vulnerable. Those who buy unregulated black market materials from dodgy dealers. All those that have been seriously damaged by the uneducated, unregulated, underground pursuit of these experiences.

We have here an opportunity to change all that, and that's huge.

I want to reiterate, we have nothing to lose in this. No one is taking away your ability to spawn a monotub. This is simply bottoming out a whole bunch of nasty predatory industries enabled by prohibition and providing people a safe and sanctioned way to have these experiences, integrate them properly, and gain the most benefit from them.

truth.

 

[Praxis.]

I want to reiterate, we have nothing to lose in this. No one is taking away your ability to spawn a monotub. This is simply bottoming out a whole bunch of nasty predatory industries enabled by prohibition and providing people a safe and sanctioned way to have these experiences, integrate them properly, and gain the most benefit from them.

I agree with this, generally speaking. I think about people like my mom, who I know would greatly benefit from having a structured psychedelic experience. But being as cautious as she is that'd only be possible if psychedelics become legally available in a clinical setting. I know that could be a potentially life-changing and fulfilling experience for her and her mental health and all people should be able to have this opportunity. It makes me sad to think someone like my mother could never get to experience the benefits of psychedelics just because they're not available in a clinical setting.

But there's caveats that come with this too. There's a great anecdote in the video that downwardfromzero shared about Whole Foods becoming a publicly traded company with the goal of producing more organic food and getting it out to more people, but ultimately having to make endless concessions to the majority shareholders who wanted to strip the company of all it's "inefficiencies" in order to maximize profits. The result being that despite their intentions Whole Foods has become a kind of overpriced Walmart for organic food, and most people can't actually shop there.

I'm concerned how this sort of dynamic will play out in the psychedelic world. We're already seeing issues with companies like Compass and their actions surrounding exclusivity contracts and patenting. This kind of behavior is endemic to capitalism, it's not exceptional or out of the ordinary in any way. It's the inevitable outcome of large businesses competing to create growth by driving down their bottom line and ultimately cutting everyone else out. Think WalMart, Amazon, Apple, Facebook... These dynamics can and will trickle down into the psychedelic market if we let them.

The issue for me isn't about the commodification/popularization of psychedelics. They've been commodities traded on a market for at least as long as they've been illegal, and I think everyone should have equal access to them. If the goal is more opportunity for people to take these things safely then in my opinion we should be aiming for a kind of democratized marketplace for psychedelics, and I'm just not sure that's compatible with modern capitalism. As ugly as the underground culture can sometimes be, it feels in many ways like a democratic space and I think the fear of losing that understandably makes people defensive.

On a side note I'm pretty curious about the cost of these therapies. Going back to thinking about my mom, even if a clinic opened up right down the street from her I doubt she'd be able to afford treatment unless psychedelic therapy is covered by insurance - which is sure to be a huge can of worms in the future. Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading that the full treatment from MAPS MDMA-assisted therapy protocol will cost somewhere around $15,000. Granted that includes multiple follow up sessions in addition to the actual MDMA sessions themselves, but that's still a ton of money to drop for the average person.