Thoughts on psychedelics and capitalism?

[jamie]

^Occult practices such as psychedelic magic or mystery initiations are not the same thing as psychedelic therapy though.

This will become more of an issue going forward, where some will adopt what they feel are right practices...and those practices will be all over the place as you have more conservative approaches alongside the more liberal. A lot of what we know as shamanism, encompasses practices way way outside what is accepted morally sound within the sphere of therapy. This must be understood.

What you are suggesting is a context of psychedelic magic, or occult/mystical work. It should not be conflated with the kind of thing MAPS is doing. They just are not the same thing. One requires a certain kind of relationship dynamic, that the other could easily jeopardize.

 

[RoundAbout]

Also, if the indigenous people had not discovered these plants, we would have. They discovered them first, because they grew in their area.

I doubt that, for instance, we would be aware of Salvia divinorum, and therefore salvinorin A (which if I recall correctly is more potent than the previously known KOR agonists, with a much different structure and pharmacokinetics). There has been a fair amount of speculation (with favourable evidence) that it was preserved only through cultivation by the Mazatec. Despite the Mazatec providing it to researchers, it took ages to figure out the active compound... I believe there was even speculation that it was actually inactive.

...we have to find a way to compensate the ones who originally used them, the indigenous people, the ones who shared it with us. Those who have ‘historical rights’.

And that system has to be strictly controlled. We all know that otherwise they will finish last.

I agree that this seems like virtue signalling. There is nothing like a patent protecting the knowledge of indigenous peoples, so I sincerely doubt that money will be diverted to them from pharmaceutical companies.

It's like mineral rights; there are numerous cases in Canada where native people aided prospectors with the logistics of exploration, locating deposits (including literally telling them where some deposits were) and provided access to treaty lands for mining. They were generally not fairly compensated despite also having their land/water polluted, but they have no legal recourse. Besides, we would have found those deposits anyways. Something something life aint fare

Anyways, veering off topic here. I agree that this sort of framing of the issue is divisive and unproductive, but I felt the need to respond.

We/I/them

 

[Praxis.]

They were generally not fairly compensated despite also having their land/water polluted, but they have no legal recourse. Besides, we would have found those deposits anyways. Something something life aint fare

Isn't that sort of the point though? The colonizers found those deposits because the people who already lived there shared their knowledge. In what alternate timeline would there be an example of colonizers just stumbling across these resources and getting them for free without removing Native people from history? The example you gave is not "life just not being fair", it's intentional exploitation. If you recognize the situation you just described as unfair, then why can't we hold ourselves to a higher standard now with certain plant-based psychedelics?

I agree with Jamie on his point that most psychedelics are either synthetic or widespread throughout nature. I'm not sure I think it's productive to make generalizations about any one group of people being compensated for the distribution of psychedelics that could come from a variety of sources. But I think it's well within reason to expect companies whose production depends on the export/processing of plants considered sacred to specific groups of people to include them as major stakeholders of said companies, at a bare minimum. In my opinion it should be less about the drug itself being distributed, but the plants and their connection to the people and the land they come from.

I have some reservations about psychedelics being commercialized for the same reasons mentioned by others. I'm excited to see all the research that will be continuing to come out over the next few years though, and I think there's some incredible potential there. There's an argument to be made that private ventures may not be the best or most efficient means of learning about psychedelics, or ensuring that they're made more available to everyone who could safely benefit from them (in my opinion), but I for sure support dreamer's suggestion of a thread for people who want to discuss investing in these companies. If there are ethical groups out there doing good work it makes sense that we should be helping direct people to them, and away from some of the shadier ventures whose practices some people may not have known about or want to support.

And financial literacy is cool, helping people make smart decisions with their money is never a bad thing either

 

[dithyramb]

Over a few years I ordered mimosa, acacia, chacruna, chaliponga, ayahuasca vine, san pedro... It was a period of being introduced into what these medicines are about, through helpful guidance from experienced people. Since five years, I had only been ordering acacia and now since two years I have been ordering nothing at all. My intention from the beginning was to engage with the local land. It was actually a taboo for me to order anything at all in the beginning, but then I accepted the fact that I was not qualified to create a local ayahuasca analogue at that time. Eleven years later, and circumstances have changed. I believe this is not just about me. I believe we have entered the age where any qualified people will have to procure their own medicines. Sometimes I think to myself that it I am not interested in psychedelics. I am interested in the spirit of the local land. Capitalism will never deliver what I seek.

 

[murklan]

...I am interested in the spirit of the local land. Capitalism will never deliver what I seek.

Great line and intentions! This is perhaps a bit off topic but regarding capitalism it's spot on. The 'spirit of the local land' is easily forgotten (or worse) through the endless strive for eliminating distances for money and goods and disrespecting limits and boundaries for growth and exploitation.

I believe that a crucial path forward is this age of global environamental crisis is to go local, to respect, celebrate and bond with your inmidiate place on earth. As many know psychedelics can really be a aid in opening towards this.

 

[Ramma]

What you are suggesting is a context of psychedelic magic, or occult/mystical work. It should not be conflated with the kind of thing MAPS is doing.

but thats what psychedelics are. They are deeply magical, mystical, and occult. They cant be turned into therapeutic safe space pills, cause they just arent that. They are not safe, cozy, and are not therapeutic. I know the approach MAPS has and it all seems wrong to me. Like if they are selling out for funding & popularity. Its like they wanna secularize heaven and hell as an appeal to the masses.

 

[jamie]

Also, if the indigenous people had not discovered these plants, we would have. They discovered them first, because they grew in their area.

I doubt that, for instance, we would be aware of Salvia divinorum, and therefore salvinorin A (which if I recall correctly is more potent than the previously known KOR agonists, with a much different structure and pharmacokinetics). There has been a fair amount of speculation (with favourable evidence) that it was preserved only through cultivation by the Mazatec. Despite the Mazatec providing it to researchers, it took ages to figure out the active compound... I believe there was even speculation that it was actually inactive.

Who is defined here by "we"? Are we referring to western culture as a whole? What defines the "West" at this point? Clearly it's not a geographical location, even though we could discuss it's many euro-centric origins...still, whatever that we is it comprises traits from cultures around the globe, because we are talking about a global culture of people, from around the globe. This is the reality we live in.

Look at all the plants we did find. We discovered ergot. Multiple cultures, including european, likely discovered psilocybin mushrooms over and over again. We found datura, henbane, amanita muscaria. MDMA, ketamine, LSD, 2cb, 2ce, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT...all discovered within the context of a laboratory, before any of us had knowledge of these things existing elsewhere or current contexts of use.

The whole thing is just too open ended to put a cap on. Salvinorin A was discovered in the west yes because the Mazatec people allowed others to come in and study it. People in Mexico will still want to study all the plants that grow there. They have botanists. This is however, pointless speculation.

We also know what salvinorin A is, and that you can vaporize it, because of all the work Daniel Siebert did. That opened the door for a lot of people to come in and study it receptor affinity. This is a huge part of why we understand what we do about salvinorin A. From one anglte(not one I care to stand by), I could argue that we know a lot more about this compound than the Mazatec do.

Now, the situation has deepened. Because of science following...leads...we understand that salvinorin A is found in Salvia recognita, Salvia cryptantha and Salvia glutinosa. If we wanted a theraputic model involving organic salvinorin A, we would not even need Salvia Divinorum.

It leaves us again in the middle of some process, with ill defined borders.

This is a bit of a sidetrack still, as most of the attention at the moment seems to be on MDMA, ketamine, LSD and psilocybin. I know some here in Canada are looking at 2cb for the future. The exception of iboga ,peyote and bufo venom...and a lot of that is underground new agers as well. People eating peyote they did not grow at this time is a problem I feel that should be discussed.

Mining should be discussed because it IS effecting peyote. A lot of that mining money is thrown into the budding psychedelic market. This is most certainly an issue.

 

[dithyramb]

Re: salvinorin a in other salvias. I have access to an infinite supply of wild Salvia cryptantha where I live. I have tried quidding very large amounts with no success (and completely numb taste buds for a few days after each trial). And as far as I know, no one else has succeeded in having a clear salvinorin a experience with these salvias so far.

Science definitely knows way more on the compounds. There are even no compounds in the traditional cultures from where these plants come. For them, there are spirits. For "us" there is no spirit, just compounds. To me it seems the two cultures have advanced in exclusive domains and their knowledge is not comparable.

What a contrast it is, with salvia being a shy "deer-like" subtle spirit in the mazatec and a completely reality shattering experience in the "us." Yes we are masters of brute force, but does that mean we know better in every domain? Smoking salvia extracts was interesting and enriching for me many years ago, now I find it unhealthy for myself.

The mazatec disapprove of smoking S. d. and say "whatever it is you are getting, it's not her (ska pastora)". There are definite instances of such collision between modern and traditional psychedelic uses... I have been a little shocked by how many aged psychedelics enthusiasts there are who simply, unhesitantingly conclude that "they don't know, we know better." For me, an absolute self questioning, humbleness, and openness to different perspectives are the number one lessons that psychedelics give. But it does not necessarily go so... Just having experiences is not enough... that's another reason why simply making the compounds available to the masses wll not guarantee a positive transformation.

Compounds are not all there is to psychedelic medicines... Capitalism can serve a purpose for a basic introduction for larger masses. It if it's paradigm lasts longer than the required basic introductory phase, then we are locked in a teenage consciousness with our "compounds." Consumer items that empower us just enough to overcome certain megative conditions but leave us on the surface of awakening, with no possibility for true, deep personal and societal transformation. In fact, this is the greatest danger.... A kind of brave new world. Everything including the most powerful transformational agents accessible, normalized, profaned. To the point that nobody can even imagine what is possible outside the playpen with these sacraments any longer.


"I drank ayahuasca once and I thought I understood everything. I drank ten times and recognized that there are some things that I don't understand. I drank a hundred times and realized I don't understand most of it. I drank a thousand times and accepted that I know anything." ~Alonso del Rio

 

[jamie]

What you are suggesting is a context of psychedelic magic, or occult/mystical work. It should not be conflated with the kind of thing MAPS is doing.

but thats what psychedelics are. They are deeply magical, mystical, and occult. They cant be turned into therapeutic safe space pills, cause they just arent that. They are not safe, cozy, and are not therapeutic. I know the approach MAPS has and it all seems wrong to me. Like if they are selling out for funding & popularity. Its like they wanna secularize heaven and hell as an appeal to the masses.

I feel this is partly true, and I can not imagine why a person would ever want to take psilocybin in a clinical setting. I know too well what I am getting into, however. It just does not seem ideal.

Whatever MAPS is doing, thats MAPS thing...and low dose ketamine or MDMA talk therapy in a clinic really is a bit removed from what you might be referring to.

The reality of occult practices however, can encompass practices that will not morally stand within a theraputic context. I think this is important to address. Cannabis might be used between a student and teacher in a yogic setting for example, and the relationship dynamic might be appropriate for that context yet entirely unappropriate within a therapist-patient context.

I dont know what else to say about that. I use cannabis every day for symptoms of an auto-immune disease. I could also take large oral doses and trip my face off, but that requires a different context. I have benefited from both low and high dose ketamine sessions in the past, but again they are different beasts. Im not sure there is one way to do it.

Not saying I am backing MAPS..just sayin..

I still can't imagine how a fully psychedelic dose of psilocybin is a 2 person, therapist/patient experience...that sounds like hell to endure at times. I can only do it alone. I really can't imagine even having a shaman there I dont know really really well. It's not my thing.

 

[jamie]

What a contrast it is, with salvia being a shy "deer-like" subtle spirit in the mazatec and a completely reality shattering experience in the "us."

According to Kathleen Harrison, her Mazatec curranderos sit right beside the person chewing the leaves. She contrasted this with the mushroom ceremonies. They seem to take Salvia pretty seriously and understand it's power to take a person far, far out. They are ready for it. They are human, just like us, and chewing those leaves can really send a human brain.

 

[dreamer042]

You can't patent nature. Legally, no one can own psilocybin. You can patent production and preparation methods, and this is exactly what is happening with these startups that compose the budding psychedelic industry.

Extrapolating that, you can't own a plant (or fungi) species. Legally, you can't even patent a ritual developed around that plant. Bwiti is not a registered trademark. Though, I would argue morally and ethically, a culture that has spent generations developing rites around these plants does maintain ownership over the ceremonies, but not the plants that grow freely of the earth.

The FDA approved commercial market will not be using plant medicines anytime soon, we've got a loooooong way to go before that's even on the radar. Technically, if anyone owes reparations for the extractive psychedelic plant trade, it's us. Those of us ordering dried plants off the internet through opaque vendors, with no oversight or real assurance where the material is coming from.

Therapy is not religion or recreation. A shaman may or may not be skilled in handling the rape trauma that bubbles up uninvited in the maloka. A clinician may or may not be able to address your damaged light body while you are on the couch. You may or may not be able to exercise your demons out on the dancefloor. Different contexts suit different intentions, there is room for all of them.

 

[tango]

How about the financial aspect, do you guys think it's a good investment at this point? I just did a search for psychedelic medicine companies, and was surprised to see how many there are, considering the legal status of psychedelics.

 

[metta-morpheus]

. You may or may not be able to exercise your demons out on the dancefloor.

I can.

 

[RoundAbout]

Isn't that sort of the point though?

Yes, I am not stating my feelings.

I would like to suggest voting with your dollars and choosing to invest in companies who's business models align with your own values and not necessarily just those that have the most profitable prospectus. Perhaps we could start an investment thread and more thoroughly examine the various companies comprising the industry along with their values and potential for growth?

I am much more interested in this but have nothing to contribute, which is probably why I am engaging with inflammatory topics.

 

[bismillah]

How about the financial aspect, do you guys think it's a good investment at this point? I just did a search for psychedelic medicine companies, and was surprised to see how many there are, considering the legal status of psychedelics.

Personally I think it's a fine time if you have some money you're willing to put away for a long while. Stocks are coming out of an initial hype phase and seem a bit overvalued at the moment. That said, I don't see any way to go but up in the long run.

 

[Jagube]

but thats what psychedelics are. They are deeply magical, mystical, and occult. They cant be turned into therapeutic safe space pills, cause they just arent that. They are not safe, cozy, and are not therapeutic. I know the approach MAPS has and it all seems wrong to me.

We know psychedelics have some measurable therapeutic properties, e.g. mushrooms help with cluster headaches, depression etc. Why do you believe they should be reserved strictly to ritual magick and not to help people?

The Mazatecs use mushrooms for the healing of ailments too (if not primarily). Did they get it all wrong?

 

[BongQuixote]

How about the financial aspect, do you guys think it's a good investment at this point? I just did a search for psychedelic medicine companies, and was surprised to see how many there are, considering the legal status of psychedelics.

Personally I think it's a fine time if you have some money you're willing to put away for a long while. Stocks are coming out of an initial hype phase and seem a bit overvalued at the moment. That said, I don't see any way to go but up in the long run.

I don't see any big established pharma companies interested in providing psychedelic drugs to the public. Since the molecules and techniques are already known and in the public domain, there is no money to be made through copyrights, which is how drug companies make money. I don't think generic manufacturing of a niche product with a small market is the business they want to be in. Same with weed, that's why the drug companies are not all over it. There is no money to be made.

 

[Ramma]

but thats what psychedelics are. They are deeply magical, mystical, and occult. They cant be turned into therapeutic safe space pills, cause they just arent that. They are not safe, cozy, and are not therapeutic. I know the approach MAPS has and it all seems wrong to me.

We know psychedelics have some measurable therapeutic properties, e.g. mushrooms help with cluster headaches, depression etc. Why do you believe they should be reserved strictly to ritual magick and not to help people?

The Mazatecs use mushrooms for the healing of ailments too (if not primarily). Did they get it all wrong?

They should help people! And they do. They are tools partial towards healing under the right conditions. But the way they heal is through magic, through showing that the world
is made of magic, and not solid as we thought. It isnt an aspirin. If youre gonna be having visions and seeing angels you cant propose and encourage this secular materialist reducrionist view to it. It must be understood as an ocult practice; the contents of the visions are the biggest taboo the world has ever seen, challenging all concensus reality. A visionary experience, a beatific vision, is a miracle...weve all had our visions and we know how healing they are

I'm speaking in terms of the deepest psychedelic experience; the DMT breakthrough. Shrooms you can take 0.5 and it could serve as a sleep aid, to relax, for clearing the mind. Many herbs can be handled like this for reducing pain or causing pleasure. But theres nothing like a peak experience. That it is even possible is insane, and how it isnt the biggest headline in the news is beyond me. And these are the psychedelic experiences we skeap of when we think of the inmense power of psychedelics.

 

[bismillah]

How about the financial aspect, do you guys think it's a good investment at this point? I just did a search for psychedelic medicine companies, and was surprised to see how many there are, considering the legal status of psychedelics.

Personally I think it's a fine time if you have some money you're willing to put away for a long while. Stocks are coming out of an initial hype phase and seem a bit overvalued at the moment. That said, I don't see any way to go but up in the long run.

I don't see any big established pharma companies interested in providing psychedelic drugs to the public. Since the molecules and techniques are already known and in the public domain, there is no money to be made through copyrights, which is how drug companies make money. I don't think generic manufacturing of a niche product with a small market is the business they want to be in. Same with weed, that's why the drug companies are not all over it. There is no money to be made.

Yes, you are right, but "no money" is an overstatement. There is still very good potential for profit, I believe, ignoring the question of the morality of it. I also think big pharma companies would not want to compete with their own synthetic antidepressants and anxiolytics, contributing to their avoidance of psychedelics (hey, isn't that one theory as to why they were demonized in the first place?).
But just because Pfizer isn't about to start growing shrooms doesn't mean it's unprofitable. There are plenty of manufacturing methods to be patented, and research to be done, and expensive therapies to be devised, and liberal corporations to be charged for employee counselling

 

[jamie]

But the way they heal is through magic, through showing that the world
is made of magic, and not solid as we thought. It isnt an aspirin. If youre gonna be having visions and seeing angels you cant propose and encourage this secular materialist reducrionist view to it. It must be understood as an ocult practice; the contents of the visions are the biggest taboo the world has ever seen, challenging all concensus reality. A visionary experience, a beatific vision, is a miracle...weve all had our visions and we know how healing they are

I'm speaking in terms of the deepest psychedelic experience; the DMT breakthrough. Shrooms you can take 0.5 and it could serve as a sleep aid, to relax, for clearing the mind. Many herbs can be handled like this for reducing pain or causing pleasure. But theres nothing like a peak experience. That it is even possible is insane, and how it isnt the biggest headline in the news is beyond me. And these are the psychedelic experiences we skeap of when we think of the inmense power of psychedelics.

Im not sure everyone is going to agree with you that psychedelics heal by showing that the world is made of magic, as an absolute. It sounds to me like many people describe moving through trauma on MDMA because it acts an empathogen and removes anxiety. Are you suggesting that the only way to heal with psychedelics is to be shown that the world is made of magic? Can you define this "magic" a bit better? Do you mean god, or creation?

Half a gram of mushrooms is hardly a sleep aid used to just relax and clear the mind. This comparison is not logical. Many psychedelics including DMT can be microdosed for minor anxiolytic effects, and tons of people will claim that psilocybin can take them as deep as DMT or ayahuasca etc. The experiences of people eating just a mg of LSD etc are rather far out. A mg of DMT will not be far out. I agree there is nothing like a peak experience, but why are you making this comparison?..the peak experience is something all these tryptamines produce, not just DMT. Most people will also agree that 5-MeO-DMT is stronger than DMT.