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Trip Abortion Thread
- Thread starter Apoc
- Start date
Hyperspace Fool said:
hmmmm, you are right about valerian root having an anti anxiety effect, and also has an "anxiolytic" effect, which benzos have. Valerian (herb) - Wikipedia
I have taken valerian root as I heard it can be used as a sleep aid, and I did not find it had any effect on my consciousness at all at recommended dosages..... so I wonder how effective it would be to a person who is on the verge of mental breakdown. A person may have to take a large dose of valerian for it to do anything. Determining a dose, and experimentation with such dosages should be done before attempting to use as a trip aborter, so one will know what to expect from the dose.
This may turn out to be a good over the counter option.
Apoc said:
Doctor prescribed.
VALERIAN ROOT
I find that the valerian one might get in a supplement (pre gel capped) is of vastly varying freshness and potency. Best to buy bulk whole, or partially broken valerian & keep it in an airtight jar. Prior to use, you can grind it in a good coffee grinder... though the shit is VERY hard. My old fashioned hand cranked steel grinder does the trick though. Then use this powder in a simple tea. It is extremely effective like this. A single teaspoon is usually too much for me.
I haven't ever had the cause to use Valerian Tea as a comedown.
SWIM has used it once in a while when feeling too wired AFTER a journey. Lying in bed unable to sleep, feeling agitated or psychosomatic concerned about Serotonin Syndrome (neuro toxicity from too much serotonin), heart racing, tinnitus... whatever. SWIM has never encountered actual Serotonin Syndrome, but expects it is not a single state, but rather a continuum. Symptoms include clonus (twitching), fever, loud bowels, mania etc. Anyone using psychs should know about it and how to recognize it, as it has been fatal. And yes, "classic" psychs can cause it... usually in concert with SSRIs, SNRIs, multiple serotoninergic agents combined or the like, but not only.
Considering the fact that many people around here like to use regular MAOI/ RIMA tonics, tryptamine enhancers (melatonin, 5HTP, tryptophan etc.), drugs or plant medicines that work with serotonin, and that many normal foods also mess with serotonin &/or MAO... it is certainly something to think about.
IME Valerian Root, and to differing degrees, Hops, Kava and other plants do have a pronounced effect on the physical & somatic symptoms of SS even at low dosages... whether or not they are actually caused by clinical Serotonin Syndrome. At any rate, a glass of Valerian tea is at least equal to a valium if made from fresh stuff. (Note: the smell of valerian is unmistakable and a good indicator of its potency.)
I find that the valerian one might get in a supplement (pre gel capped) is of vastly varying freshness and potency. Best to buy bulk whole, or partially broken valerian & keep it in an airtight jar. Prior to use, you can grind it in a good coffee grinder... though the shit is VERY hard. My old fashioned hand cranked steel grinder does the trick though. Then use this powder in a simple tea. It is extremely effective like this. A single teaspoon is usually too much for me.
I haven't ever had the cause to use Valerian Tea as a comedown.
SWIM has used it once in a while when feeling too wired AFTER a journey. Lying in bed unable to sleep, feeling agitated or psychosomatic concerned about Serotonin Syndrome (neuro toxicity from too much serotonin), heart racing, tinnitus... whatever. SWIM has never encountered actual Serotonin Syndrome, but expects it is not a single state, but rather a continuum. Symptoms include clonus (twitching), fever, loud bowels, mania etc. Anyone using psychs should know about it and how to recognize it, as it has been fatal. And yes, "classic" psychs can cause it... usually in concert with SSRIs, SNRIs, multiple serotoninergic agents combined or the like, but not only.
Considering the fact that many people around here like to use regular MAOI/ RIMA tonics, tryptamine enhancers (melatonin, 5HTP, tryptophan etc.), drugs or plant medicines that work with serotonin, and that many normal foods also mess with serotonin &/or MAO... it is certainly something to think about.
IME Valerian Root, and to differing degrees, Hops, Kava and other plants do have a pronounced effect on the physical & somatic symptoms of SS even at low dosages... whether or not they are actually caused by clinical Serotonin Syndrome. At any rate, a glass of Valerian tea is at least equal to a valium if made from fresh stuff. (Note: the smell of valerian is unmistakable and a good indicator of its potency.)
Here's Stanislav Grof's thoughts on trip abortion, starting last paragraph on page 76 of scribd (169 of the book):
In all fairness, Grof is talking specifically about trip abortion in the context of LSD psychotherapy. I can see how not allowing a trip to resolve naturally might be detrimental to the therapeutic process, but most of us aren't taking these drugs in the same context or for the same purpose (I don't believe).
Oh yeah thats definitely true, Art. But I think many aspects are relevant for a lot of cases. Apoc in the original post was talking about a trip that goes "so bad you want it to end". I think the points that Grof makes are very relevant, about how "bad" content is often something that should come out and be dealt with it productively, integrated at the end.
I mean, think about it, if every psychedelic came with a 'magic pill' that can end the trip whenever things get a little rough.... Where is the line where suffering is a part of it, and when its too much? Even I have wanted a trip or another to end but im glad it didnt and I went through them, these have been some of the most teaching ones.
Then apoc talks about when people think its so bad that they call police/ambulance, and I think that sounds much more like a case of bad set and setting (why would someone get so desperate on psychedelics that they actually call the cops? How much did they take, were they experienced with it, was there a sitter? Were they aware of the lack of physical risks with classic psychedelics? Or what else did they take? ) etc.
The folks at the "trip emergency" tents in festivals do some impressive work without the need of tranquilizers, but of course, they are not everywhere. Too bad folks at hospitals arent trained to deal with tripping people. Someone should organize workshops to hospital staff on tripping people and how to deal with them
I mean, think about it, if every psychedelic came with a 'magic pill' that can end the trip whenever things get a little rough.... Where is the line where suffering is a part of it, and when its too much? Even I have wanted a trip or another to end but im glad it didnt and I went through them, these have been some of the most teaching ones.
Then apoc talks about when people think its so bad that they call police/ambulance, and I think that sounds much more like a case of bad set and setting (why would someone get so desperate on psychedelics that they actually call the cops? How much did they take, were they experienced with it, was there a sitter? Were they aware of the lack of physical risks with classic psychedelics? Or what else did they take? ) etc.
The folks at the "trip emergency" tents in festivals do some impressive work without the need of tranquilizers, but of course, they are not everywhere. Too bad folks at hospitals arent trained to deal with tripping people. Someone should organize workshops to hospital staff on tripping people and how to deal with them
Jin said:
yeah i think there would be a lot of individual variation with the success of that technique..if i really needed to calm down an lsd trip for some reason, then marijuana would be just about the last thing i would smoke in that state, since for me it intensifies the trip and visuals tremendously. and i very rarely drink alcohol anymore so that would probably just make me feel like shit, especially while under the hyper-lens of lsd awareness
We need to bury the myth that benzodiazepines are hazardous with RIMAs.They are not.
Clonazepam is one of the more potent benzo-related compounds and is very effective in quelling the anxiety which accompanies a real head-mashing spiralling descent into madness type experience.
My personal benzo-of-choice for such a scenario is lorazepam, particularly the ones made by Wyeth as these little blue bullet-shaped tablets can be dissolved sublingually to get in the system quicker.
A few years ago I had ready access to ampoules of diazepam emulsion, 10mg/2ml, which were even more direct in their effect.Having said that, IV lorazepam and IV midazolam were bloody ideal too.Fortunately Ive not needed these for trip-terminating purposes.
Aldous Huxley, in The Doors of Perception/Heaven and Hell mentions nicotinic acid AKA niacin as being effective for ending a bad trip.
Clonazepam is one of the more potent benzo-related compounds and is very effective in quelling the anxiety which accompanies a real head-mashing spiralling descent into madness type experience.
My personal benzo-of-choice for such a scenario is lorazepam, particularly the ones made by Wyeth as these little blue bullet-shaped tablets can be dissolved sublingually to get in the system quicker.
A few years ago I had ready access to ampoules of diazepam emulsion, 10mg/2ml, which were even more direct in their effect.Having said that, IV lorazepam and IV midazolam were bloody ideal too.Fortunately Ive not needed these for trip-terminating purposes.
Aldous Huxley, in The Doors of Perception/Heaven and Hell mentions nicotinic acid AKA niacin as being effective for ending a bad trip.
universecannon said:
Hops in the beer is a sedative on its own, apart from any alcohol.
I've got to say that whether one is shooting dope, taking a klonopin, smoking marijuana, drinking a beer (or even an herbal tea), they are chemically altering the experience. And while I agree that riding out a bad one may be more beneficial in the long run, I guess it's really a question of the context under which you're taking it in the first place.
I just don't feel any obligation (to myself or to the drug) to endure a horrifically bad one. I'm not tripping for therapy, so I don't feel bound by the same constraints.
I just don't feel any obligation (to myself or to the drug) to endure a horrifically bad one. I'm not tripping for therapy, so I don't feel bound by the same constraints.
YTXian
Not an angry scientist but a mad one.
Aldous Huxley, in The Doors of Perception/Heaven and Hell mentions nicotinic acid AKA niacin as being effective for ending a bad trip.[/quote]
Now that you mention it...I do belive it was niacin and not vitamin C I was told will end a trip faster. Although I know this is not something to be over-done. Burns!
Now that you mention it...I do belive it was niacin and not vitamin C I was told will end a trip faster. Although I know this is not something to be over-done. Burns!
I think any attempt to abort a trip should realy be a last resort. If you tell someone who's having a bad trip that he'll be fine once the benzo's start working, he will become completely obsessed with it. Minutes become hours.
In many cases, you could spent those same 30 minutes on getting hold on yourself again instead of obsessively waiting for a pharmaceutical miracle.
In many cases, you could spent those same 30 minutes on getting hold on yourself again instead of obsessively waiting for a pharmaceutical miracle.
endlessness said:
This thread was inspired by a recent tripper who tripped alone, and freaked out so bad that he considered knocking himself out so he wouldn't have to deal with the trip. Instead, he decided to call an ambulance on himself, who were accompanied by the police. Of course, the hospital people didn't treat him in any way because he wasn't dying, they just accompanied him and asked him a million questions, until the tripper came down. So this thread is really about trips that go so bad for people that they are about to hurt themselves, or call the police or ambulance on themselves, unnecessarily. This thread is about other options, and the reasons why calling emergency services is a poor idea much of the time. I clarified in the original post. No, I don't think people should abort a trip just because it's difficult, and I doubt there would be a rash of people who decide to abort every time a trip gets rough. There would be no point in journeying if that's what people are doing.
The person who called an ambulance on himself said that he didn't want to call family or friends to help calm him down because he didn't want family or friends to see him in that state. This is a poor choice in my opinion. It's much better to get a sitter who knows you rather than calling an ambulance for yourself, just to talk to someone. It is a waste of time to emergency services, who might actually have to physically save someone's life. If a trip becomes unmanageable and a freakout ensues, either get a sitter, talk to someone you know to calm you down, or abort the trip with medication because emergency workers probably aren't going to stop your trip. They'll just ask you a bunch of stuff and monitor you, maybe strap you to a bed so you don't hurt yourself.... and then possibly charge you with a crime. Who wants that? There have been times when I freaked out inside, and wanted the trip to stop, but I am glad I had enough sense to realize that calling an ambulance for myself wouldn't make things any better. What are they going to do?
So, I know that set and setting are important. However, there are times when people become absolutely convinced that they are dying, or going insane or whatever, and nothing can convince them otherwise. They become willing to incriminate themselves because they are so sure they are dying. I say, if it gets to that point, just reach for a trip calming pill instead. It will calm you more than an ambulance with police will.
What he said.
Well put Apoc.
If the cost of dealing with your bad trip is a criminal record, diminshed career prospects,+/- a pell inside then surely commonsense must dictate that the purist attitude should be suspended for reasons which are simply due to pragmatism,and a view of the dreadful consequences which could well ensue, makes necking a benzo or 4 the route of lesser evils.
Sometimes the level of psychological turmoil can make it challenging to guide yourself out- hence the justified position benzos should ideally have, as an option which is entirely appropriate under certain circumstances.
If the cost of dealing with your bad trip is a criminal record, diminshed career prospects,+/- a pell inside then surely commonsense must dictate that the purist attitude should be suspended for reasons which are simply due to pragmatism,and a view of the dreadful consequences which could well ensue, makes necking a benzo or 4 the route of lesser evils.
Sometimes the level of psychological turmoil can make it challenging to guide yourself out- hence the justified position benzos should ideally have, as an option which is entirely appropriate under certain circumstances.
What he said.
I dont necessarily disagree with you guys, I can understand at some point it may be understandable and reasonable. Im just questioning how many of the times where one would chose a benzo, could be dealt with in another way.. I guess at least sometimes when someone is sure they are dying or going crazy, it can still be dealt with without interrupting the experience, and I know this both from personal experience as well as witnessing it happen to others.
I think the topic is an interesting one, apoc, im just giving an alternative perspective here for generating some reflection, definitely not meant to sound judgemental or to say that it absolutely should never be done.
I think the topic is an interesting one, apoc, im just giving an alternative perspective here for generating some reflection, definitely not meant to sound judgemental or to say that it absolutely should never be done.
endlessness said:
Yeah, I get it. As I said, I intend this option to be for people who are at their wits end and considering taking drastic measures to end the trip because they feel there is nothing else they can do. A trip abortion is less than a drastic measure, and therefore, a more desirable option.
Trip abortion is not for people who are merely having a rough ride or dealing with the usual difficult emotions that arise during normal trips. I just don't believe that any normal tripper would make a habit of aborting their trips. If they really want to face their demons, they'll stick with the trip, or return after aborting a trip they might choose to go back. But if they'd rather die or go to jail than ride out the trip, it would be great if they had an abortion option available. And I really don't see it becoming a habit for anyone to stop their own trip. I just don't think people would do that, and continue returning. If they don't like tripping, they won't keep doing it to themselves, only to stop it once it starts. I hope I don't start a great divide between pro choice and pro trip people.
But at this point I still don't think this thread is complete. We know that people have used various benzos, like lorazepam and clonazepam, and valium, but only determined that these can be obtained by prescription. It's probably less likely people will look in to these options if they have to get a prescription, but these are probably the best choices. Also, we have not yet determined for certain if benzos are contraindicated for RIMA's. I have not read anywhere they are contraindicated, but another user suggested that MAOI's are contraindicated with benzos.
There is the option of valerian root, which I think is the root that valium comes from. However, I have not heard a real life story of a successful abortion using valerian root, or the dose it would take. I'm probably not going to try to abort my own trips to see if valerian works. Anyone ever tried valerian for trip abortion purposes?
Also I don't think we've discussed anti psychotics yet, which are also only available by prescription, as far as I know.