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Trip Abortion Thread

Migrated topic.
polytrip said:
No, classic psychedelic's do not elevate levels of serotonin. They cause serotonin levels to drop. If no MAOI's are taken, serotonin syndrome is not a probable scenario at all.

DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished dramatically. Some psychedelic's like LSD or mescaline increase levels of dopamine on the side. DMT and shrooms do this only in a very modest way when taken in large amounts.

Substances like MDMA increase levels of serotonin, but all of the classic hallucinogens hugely diminish levels of serotonin. Increasing serotonin levels is very likely to reduce at least some of the symptoms of psychedelic's. Especially the psychological effects.
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I think you are wrong here Poly. Serotonin syndrome is not caused only by excess serotonin, but by any agonistic action or overstimulation of the 5HT receptors. This "classic" psychs do in spades.

Wikipedia (not a fool proof source by any stretch) says this :

"It was originally suspected that agonism of 5-HT1A receptors in central grey nuclei and the medulla was responsible for the development of the syndrome.[39] Further study has determined that overstimulation of primarily the 5-HT2A receptors appears to contribute substantially to the condition.[39] The 5-HT1A receptor may still contribute through a pharmacodynamic interaction in which increased synaptic concentrations of a serotonin agonist saturate all receptor subtypes.[1] Additionally, noradrenergic CNS hyperactivity may play a role as CNS norepinephrine concentrations are increased in serotonin syndrome and levels appear to correlate with the clinical outcome. Other neurotransmitters may also play a role; NMDA receptor antagonists and GABA have been suggested as affecting the development of the syndrome."

The studies referenced seem above reproach.

Furthermore, on the list of known causes of SS LSD & 5 MEO DPT are both featured along with DXM, MAOIs, RIMAs, Amphetamines, Cocaine, Ginseng, St. John's Wort, Tryptophan, SSRIs, SNRIs, various Opiods etc. It is safe to say that DMT, Mescaline, Shrooms etc. would also be indicated despite not being explicitly mentioned. All the common tryptamines show up on the list.

Individually, even at extreme doses, none of these things is likely to cause a serious serotoninergic toxicity, but in combination... people have died. And, as APOC mentioned, many of the physical side effects associated with a negative trip report mirror SS very closely. Considering that 5HT overstimulation is likely a spectrum, this is not surprising that people would have uncomfotable reactions even well below life-threatening levels. Also, it should be said that people have been diagnosed with SS even from taking only one substance on the list.

It is not a good idea to give people the false idea that simply because serotonin levels drop with certain classic psychedelics that they are therefore free from serotonergic overstimulation issues. The fact that these chemicals are well known to stimulate the 5HT receptors is not debateable.
 
thanks, that makes sense.

Wow, I didn't know ginseng had anything to do with serotonin.
 
"DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished"

I am not so sure I believe that in reguards to DMT..do you have a source for that in direct relation to DMT and not psilocybin or LSD etc?
 
I have a Suzuki Folk Master in A on my belt when I trip. If I have lips to bring it to, I can usually guide my way to the light with a little chooglin'. Other than that, I keep my laptop handy with the monitor off, so I can smack the spacebar and bring some tunage into my brainage.
 
fractal enchantment said:
"DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished"

I am not so sure I believe that in reguards to DMT..do you have a source for that in direct relation to DMT and not psilocybin or LSD etc?
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scientific american-mind
volume 18 number 6 january 2008.
 
Hyperspace Fool said:
polytrip said:
No, classic psychedelic's do not elevate levels of serotonin. They cause serotonin levels to drop. If no MAOI's are taken, serotonin syndrome is not a probable scenario at all.

DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished dramatically. Some psychedelic's like LSD or mescaline increase levels of dopamine on the side. DMT and shrooms do this only in a very modest way when taken in large amounts.

Substances like MDMA increase levels of serotonin, but all of the classic hallucinogens hugely diminish levels of serotonin. Increasing serotonin levels is very likely to reduce at least some of the symptoms of psychedelic's. Especially the psychological effects.
Click to expand...


I think you are wrong here Poly. Serotonin syndrome is not caused only by excess serotonin, but by any agonistic action or overstimulation of the 5HT receptors. This "classic" psychs do in spades.

Wikipedia (not a fool proof source by any stretch) says this :

"It was originally suspected that agonism of 5-HT1A receptors in central grey nuclei and the medulla was responsible for the development of the syndrome.[39] Further study has determined that overstimulation of primarily the 5-HT2A receptors appears to contribute substantially to the condition.[39] The 5-HT1A receptor may still contribute through a pharmacodynamic interaction in which increased synaptic concentrations of a serotonin agonist saturate all receptor subtypes.[1] Additionally, noradrenergic CNS hyperactivity may play a role as CNS norepinephrine concentrations are increased in serotonin syndrome and levels appear to correlate with the clinical outcome. Other neurotransmitters may also play a role; NMDA receptor antagonists and GABA have been suggested as affecting the development of the syndrome."

The studies referenced seem above reproach.

Furthermore, on the list of known causes of SS LSD & 5 MEO DPT are both featured along with DXM, MAOIs, RIMAs, Amphetamines, Cocaine, Ginseng, St. John's Wort, Tryptophan, SSRIs, SNRIs, various Opiods etc. It is safe to say that DMT, Mescaline, Shrooms etc. would also be indicated despite not being explicitly mentioned. All the common tryptamines show up on the list.

Individually, even at extreme doses, none of these things is likely to cause a serious serotoninergic toxicity, but in combination... people have died. And, as APOC mentioned, many of the physical side effects associated with a negative trip report mirror SS very closely. Considering that 5HT overstimulation is likely a spectrum, this is not surprising that people would have uncomfotable reactions even well below life-threatening levels. Also, it should be said that people have been diagnosed with SS even from taking only one substance on the list.

It is not a good idea to give people the false idea that simply because serotonin levels drop with certain classic psychedelics that they are therefore free from serotonergic overstimulation issues. The fact that these chemicals are well known to stimulate the 5HT receptors is not debateable.
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Besides dropping levels of serotonin, classic hallucinogens also decrease the amount of 5-ht-2 receptors themselves.
I think wikipedia is wrong on this.

The effects of classic hallucinogens are exactly the opposite of the effects of serotonin. They do stimulate serotonin receptors, but a receptor can be stimulated in various ways.
The effects of classic hallucinogens is that they reduce all serotonergic activity, meaning that they cause the opposite of serotonin syndrome....they cause not overstimulation of the serotonergic system, but rather understimulation.

Candyflipping on an LSD/XTC combo is an example of this: XTC and LSD have opposite effects, resulting in switching between over and understimulation.

I'm willing to place a bet that tryptophan will reduce many of the effects of psychedelic's...if only it wouldn't be such a waste of precious psychedelic's to test this hypothesis.
 
The method of action is so dissimilar that you cannot call them opposite, and it's not switching, by a long shot. MDMA does not enter the synapse gap. LSD does.
 
Hyperspace Fool said:
polytrip said:
No, classic psychedelic's do not elevate levels of serotonin. They cause serotonin levels to drop. If no MAOI's are taken, serotonin syndrome is not a probable scenario at all.

DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished dramatically. Some psychedelic's like LSD or mescaline increase levels of dopamine on the side. DMT and shrooms do this only in a very modest way when taken in large amounts.

Substances like MDMA increase levels of serotonin, but all of the classic hallucinogens hugely diminish levels of serotonin. Increasing serotonin levels is very likely to reduce at least some of the symptoms of psychedelic's. Especially the psychological effects.
Click to expand...


I think you are wrong here Poly. Serotonin syndrome is not caused only by excess serotonin, but by any agonistic action or overstimulation of the 5HT receptors. This "classic" psychs do in spades.

Wikipedia (not a fool proof source by any stretch) says this :

"It was originally suspected that agonism of 5-HT1A receptors in central grey nuclei and the medulla was responsible for the development of the syndrome.[39] Further study has determined that overstimulation of primarily the 5-HT2A receptors appears to contribute substantially to the condition.[39] The 5-HT1A receptor may still contribute through a pharmacodynamic interaction in which increased synaptic concentrations of a serotonin agonist saturate all receptor subtypes.[1] Additionally, noradrenergic CNS hyperactivity may play a role as CNS norepinephrine concentrations are increased in serotonin syndrome and levels appear to correlate with the clinical outcome. Other neurotransmitters may also play a role; NMDA receptor antagonists and GABA have been suggested as affecting the development of the syndrome."

The studies referenced seem above reproach.

Furthermore, on the list of known causes of SS LSD & 5 MEO DPT are both featured along with DXM, MAOIs, RIMAs, Amphetamines, Cocaine, Ginseng, St. John's Wort, Tryptophan, SSRIs, SNRIs, various Opiods etc. It is safe to say that DMT, Mescaline, Shrooms etc. would also be indicated despite not being explicitly mentioned. All the common tryptamines show up on the list.

Individually, even at extreme doses, none of these things is likely to cause a serious serotoninergic toxicity, but in combination... people have died. And, as APOC mentioned, many of the physical side effects associated with a negative trip report mirror SS very closely. Considering that 5HT overstimulation is likely a spectrum, this is not surprising that people would have uncomfotable reactions even well below life-threatening levels. Also, it should be said that people have been diagnosed with SS even from taking only one substance on the list.

It is not a good idea to give people the false idea that simply because serotonin levels drop with certain classic psychedelics that they are therefore free from serotonergic overstimulation issues. The fact that these chemicals are well known to stimulate the 5HT receptors is not debateable.
Click to expand...
Btw, that list in the english wikipedia does not make sense: mirtazapine is mentioned in the list of substances that could cause SS, while the very same article says that mirtazapine most likely does not cause SS. I think they by mistake made a list of substances with serotonergic action instead of a list of substances that cause the syndrome.
The effects of serotonin syndrome are also not completely identical to the physical effects of psychedelic's, mentioned by apoc.
For instance: many people complain about feeling cold or having cold shivers while serotonin syndrome causes hypothermia.
 
^^ no doubt.

& wikipedia being a source of contradictory or not completely vetted info wouldn't be a first.

Still. LSD has been implicated in Serotonin Syndrome in dozens of studies. Furthermore, the studies referenced in the quoted section seem rather good and comprehensive. Wikipedia makes it clear that they do not completely know how or why SS is caused. They hypothesize about NMDA agonists and GABA as well.

Certainly, incidences of neurotoxicity are somewhat complex, and generally involve the use of SSRIs and MAOIs. People who complain of feeling cold are probably not having an SS related event. Although, who knows? I just wanted to make it clear that classic psychs HAVE been indicated in what they currently term serotonin neurotoxicity events. It could be that SS is actually a more generalized neuro toxicity. It could be related to epinephrine. It could have something to do with adrenaline. Perhaps certain vitamins or supplements might counteract the effect. One or more of the phosphatidyls for example... Who can say?

Personally, though, I would simply use caution when mixing any chemicals that are known to have some ability to trigger the syndrome. I think the chances of dying without having consumed a good amount of SSRIs and/or MAOIs is probably slim. But having uncomfortable physical side effects that point towards at least some neurotoxic action are somewhat common.
 
Also, I believe l-tryptophan is psychoactive on its own. I've acquired some and it works very well for inducing sleep. I find l-tryptophan itself results in very dmt like imagery, and is extremely colorful. I took 500mg of l-tryptophan 40 minutes after taking 5g of Syrian Rue. The tryptophan definitely didn't cancel out the psychedelic effects of the rue, and seemed to increase the colors. I've also taken l-tryptophan after consuming oral harmalas+spice, with similar effects. No decreased effect of the trip, but there seemed to be an increase in color of the visions. I took the combination, thinking that the l-tryptophan would potentiate the trip. I found its effects similar to the combination of harmalas + melatonin, which is an extra dimension to the experience, not a decrease in effects.

Also, some people claim to have TERRIBLE reactions from taking harmalas + melatonin. Manic Minxx claims she went on a horror trip that somehow lasted 2 days from combining harmalas with melatonin.

Note to people: taking harmalas + melatonin or l-tryptophan is not exactly recommended, as combining maoi (harmalas) + serotonergic substances like l-tryptophan, 5htp, or melatonin, is generally contraindicated and may raise serotonin levels to dangerous levels. I definitely would not recommend taking any serotonin activity increasing substances if one feels their psychedelic trip is out of control, or are experiencing heavy physical effects from taking psychedelics.
 
Apoc said:
I found its effects similar to the combination of harmalas + melatonin, which is an extra dimension to the experience, not a decrease in effects.
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Not surprising as l-tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin and thus melatonin.

Similar results can be had from 5-HTP.

Combining with MAOIs is sketchy, RIMAs possibly as well... that there are mixed reports only goes to show that people are different and that there are multiple factors at work here.
 
Hyperspace Fool said:
Combining with MAOIs is sketchy, RIMAs possibly as well... that there are mixed reports only goes to show that people are different and that there are multiple factors at work here.
Click to expand...

Just wondering because I notice people separate maoi's from rima's. Aren't rima's a form of maoi's?

MAOI = Monoamine oxidase inhibitor
RIMA = Reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase

Using the term maoi does not specify whether the maoi is reversible or not, but rima's are still maoi's, no?
 
RIMAs are a subset of MAOIs. The fact that they are reversible makes them less dangerous than the non-reversible kind. Some feel that the MAOI diet doesn't apply so much to RIMAs, but I would be wary nonetheless. The MAOIs that people here will be interested in are RIMAs.

A square is a rectangle.
 
BTW this is what the cosmic bard Terrence McKenna had to say about what to do when trips go sour. (many people would say go south, but I generally like going south)

 
Hyperspace Fool said:
BTW this is what the cosmic bard Terrence McKenna had to say about what to do when trips go sour. (many people would say go south, but I generally like going south)

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You could sing. I wouldn't recommend smoking weed though. I think doing ANYTHING, other than curling in a ball and closing your eyes, should bring the trip down because any activity I think will help to disperse the energy of the trip, burn off some neurotransmitters.

Try doing some pushups. I recommend pushups because it's something that can be done without moving around. A person under a heavy influence may have trouble walking, and moving from one place to another may get them in bad situations.

I have also found that having sex, or pulling it, can also bring a trip down. I think orgasm lessons a trip because I think it burns off a lot of hormones or neurotransmitters, or something. Orgasm has, at times, all but ended a trip for me. This is just advice for people having an unpleasant trip though. If one is having a SERIOUSLY bad ride where they are thinking of going to the hospital, I doubt anyone out there who is thinking of calling an ambulance will decide to just wank it instead of calling 911. lol. Maybe though.....
 
Well, maybe they could have some phone-sex then, when they call 911.
Wanking while calling the emergency-line, under the influence of powerfull psychedelic's must be quite an outlandish experience.
I can't wait to read the first report about it here.
 
Just a thought but for me when i start to go under on any substance there has rarely been an occasion where chugging down a large amount of strong alcohol like vodka or brandy or whatever is lying around hasn't fixed. Doesnt stop the hallucionogenic effects but sure as hell stops me from giving a shit about any negative implications I thought they had, which usually precipitates in me calming down and sorting my head out.
 
You could sing. I wouldn't recommend smoking weed though. I think doing ANYTHING, other than curling in a ball and closing your eyes, should bring the trip down because any activity I think will help to disperse the energy of the trip, burn off some neurotransmitters.

Try doing some pushups. I recommend pushups because it's something that can be done without moving around. A person under a heavy influence may have trouble walking, and moving from one place to another may get them in bad situations.

[/quote]

+1 on exercise. I mentioned it before, but felt it was worth repeating. Everytime i have felt overwhelmed/stuck in a thought loop/etc... i hit the deck and do pushups and stretches. Just having something in this plane of existence to focus on helps a lot, and getting the body to pump some neurotransmitters/hormones may be an added bonus.

Showers also seem to help a lot as well. I usually shower after the purge of an aya session, since this seems to be the most anxiety dense part of the experience. towel off, jump into the bed nude, put on some relaxing music...

This one has helped me through some rough spots... just put it on loop.
 
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