Trip Abortion Thread

[Hyperspace Fool]

I hope I don't start a great divide between pro choice and pro trip people.

Classic. If such a divide exists, it is not your fault. And while I thoroughly understand and respect both sides of the issue and tend to be pro-trip in feeling & practice... I am thoroughly pro-choice as a matter of principle. In the end who is anyone to tell another person how they should deal with their own mind and body? (I guess it is like that other pro-choice argument as well...)

There is the option of valerian root, which I think is the root that valium comes from. However, I have not heard a real life story of a successful abortion using valerian root, or the dose it would take. I'm probably not going to try to abort my own trips to see if valerian works. Anyone ever tried valerian for trip abortion purposes?

The evidence concerning benzos as a trip abortion method suggests that they probably don't abort the trip, but merely calm the tripper down enough that they can deal with it. Valerian, which is also known in certain herbalist traditions as all-heal can certainly do this. I can say that with certainty. In fact, due to its much broader range of active sedative and anxiolytic alkaloids and other substances... it might even be MORE effective.

Known compounds detected in valerian that may contribute to its method of action are:
Alkaloids: actinidine, chatinine, shyanthine, valerianine, and valerine. (Isovaleramide may be created in the extraction process.)
Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA).
Isovaleric acid.
Iridoids, including valepotriates: isovaltrate and valtrate.
Sesquiterpenes (contained in the Volatile oil): valerenic acid, hydroxyvalerenic acid and acetoxyvalerenic acid.
Flavanones: hesperidin, 6-methylapigenin and linarin.

I don't know from which chemical Valium was synthesized, isolated or whatever... it could be a myth, but I doubt it. Valium was invented by Dr. Leo Sternbach of Hoffmann-La Roche (gotta love Basel, Switzerland) after having invented Librium, and I am personally unaware of any evidence for or against the very common belief that he used Valerian in his research. The effects are nonetheless quite similar and mutually recognizable. Obviously, the primary sedation is the effect on GABA receptors. GABAa in particular.

It is likely that anything which bonds to the GABA receptors will have a calming effect and thus be useful in trip emergencies. Pure GABA is legal and cheap in bulk. SWIM has used GABA & other GABAergic compounds that are less sedative and more cognitive enhancing (the racetams) as a neuro-protector while tripping. Especially in the context of dissos. SWIM finds that GABA does decrease the trippiness of a trip, not eliminating it... but providing more clairty and sharpening the detachment aspect.

This brings us to a point that might be controversial in context of an ongoing issue here. However, I feel that in this context I can mention again that disso's have a legitimate use in eliminating or preventing bad trips. They will not stop one from hallucinating, on the contrary they have the potential to be considerably more hallucinogenic than classic psychs... save for DMT of course, and smoalking spice is so short that aborting it is out of the question (although again, here, dissos can help before hand), and I strongly advise against consuming any trip aborter while on a RIMA or a MAOI. People who are not willing to ride out a trip have no business doing ayahuasca. They should start with small doses of mushrooms, or they could use the beta-carbolines and either forgo the light the first few times, or at least purposefully underdose on it... to test the waters.

Also I don't think we've discussed anti psychotics yet, which are also only available by prescription, as far as I know.

Probably better that we don't. These chems are all toxic, and also only available by prescription. If you have a prescription for them... you probably should not be taking psychedelics. That said, I have seen people taken to mental hospitals tripping balls who were knocked out with IM or IV anti-psychs. Haldol or Thorazine are the usual suspects. Again, these chemicals suck and can chemically lobotomize you as well as destroy your liver. Even mental hospitals usually avoid Haldol these days unless the patient is acute.

I would like to say that we need to be careful in our community to not foster judgmental attitudes and certainly try to avoid propagating psychedelic macho-ism and snobbery. Seriously. If I could count the times that someone SWIM knew took too much of something trying to keep up with the hardcores or not seem too weak for the heroic dose... We should be tolerant and understanding of noobs and their justifiable anxieties. Looking down on someone for not riding out a trip is along these lines. No matter what any of you say, I can think of dozens of situations where even the hardiest among you might have cause to wish they could come down. It may not have anything to do with a bad trip either. It could simply be that plans change and some responsibility you had assumed was in the future got moved forward. The ex-wife has to drop the kids off with you a day early or whatever. Please lets not make tripping some kind of psychedelic pissing contest.

Final thought: Please be responsible and do your own research on any chemical you put into your body. Regardless of the source. Do not assume that because a doctor, a trusted friend, nature, or even your own body gave you the drug that you can use it with impunity. Find a good biomedical library and hang out there. Happy tripping...

 

[Crystalito]

I have two questions/propositions for discussion that pop in my mind:

a) Given the sugestibility that is present in those states discussed , could even a mere placebo calm down a person? I wonder because i would expect it to at least aleviate some symptoms of the panic.

b) Reading around rough and bad experiences (Erowid mostly) i was thinking that many of the unessecary police/ambulance calls could have been avoided by a trip sitter calming the person down -so in some cases, especially higher dosage scheme , a sitter could be very helpfull as an external sober judge of the situation. Sometimes i also think that the difference between a really bad experience propably destroying you socially (running down the street butt naked screaming about nonexistence) and a horrific experience , is having that part of "you" intact that can consider "aborting the trip". In the first case , if you are in a position considering to terminate it or to be able to "reach for the pill, swallow, wait" you are still functional enough. In the second case you might be well out of control, way beyond "options", in the sense that a third party (sitter) would have to physically constrain you or take the decision of administering to you a depressant. The latter case is what i would consider the most horrible one.

I think its good to have a choise , if one is responsible. There are examples where benzos are used like skittles -some people even incorporate them in their usual comedown regiment- and also examples where they are the last resort but still an option. I opt for the second.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

a) Given the sugestibility that is present in those states discussed , could even a mere placebo calm down a person? I wonder because i would expect it to at least aleviate some symptoms of the panic.

Placebos are often extremely effective. In fact, many clinical drugs are only 1% more effective than the placebo in trials. The mind is a powerful thing. People often have the side-effects they might expect from a real substance when given the placebo.

Hypnosis is an even more extreme use of suggestibility. It has been shown to be able to completely alter physiological responses so that people not only can be told that something cold is burning hot... but they actually get burned.

Of course letting someone hypnotize you is a level of trust far beyond that of having someone keep an eye on you while you go deeper than you might feel comfortable with.

I don't see why giving someone an aspirin or a salt tablet and telling them it will bring them back to earth in 15 minutes wouldn't work... if they trusted you and didn't recognize the pill, anyway. For a little while at least. Longer acting drugs have a tendency to creep back up on you, though.

A larger question is, what powers does someone give to a sitter when employing one? What responsibility do friends and family have to someone in a bad way? IME people often do more harm when meaning well than they would have done by doing nothing. Though people do call the ambulance or police on themselves occasionally, it is more often a loved one who freaks out upon finding someone un-responsive or delusional who brings in the authorities and all that goes with that.

If you have never seen the horror of someone you care about being processed by the mental health system and the lifelong stigma it can carry... hope you never do. SWIM thinks that most anything that could keep someone out of the looney bin or a jail cell, is preferable to watching someone get carted off.

 

[Crystalito]

it is more often a loved one who freaks out upon finding someone un-responsive or delusional who brings in the authorities and all that goes with that.

The keyphrase here is "upon finding". If the other people do not know what has happened and just find a loved one delusional or un-responsive, its quite understandable if they panic. For all they know their loved one could need medical attention (thinking of solid medical reasons). Also if they know psychoactives might be involved still they could panic: not everyone that happens to find someone under the influence can discuss them reasonably or know about them or their effects.

So, more or less what im talking about is an informed sitter that knows the broad spectrum of the psychedelic experience and knows that the effects can be dramatic to an external observer without warranting "medical attention".

 

[endlessness]

Yes Crystalito

 

[Apoc]

Hey what about gravol? If people are saying that the pills may not end a trip, but just calm a person down, gravol seems to have a powerful sedating effect. I think 2 gravols would probably all but put most people to sleep. But I'm not sure if it reacts with psychedelics, or may potentiate them etc. Anyone know the properties of gravol and if it's ok to use with tryptamines and harmalas?

 

[polytrip]

If people are so desperate that trip-abortion becomes nessecary, for instance because the chance they'll harm themselves is very real...i think you've got to consider the possibility that they'll no longer act in a sane way towards this trip-abortion theme either. How do you prevent them from taking a huge load of trip-abortion pills in a state of blind and total panick? (like when the valium still doesn't work after 2 minutes)

Stuff you can O.D. on is not reccomendable in these cases, i think.

 

[Apoc]

If people are so desperate that trip-abortion becomes nessecary, for instance because the chance they'll harm themselves is very real...i think you've got to consider the possibility that they'll no longer act in a sane way towards this trip-abortion theme either. How do you prevent them from taking a huge load of trip-abortion pills in a state of blind and total panick? (like when the valium still doesn't work after 2 minutes)

Stuff you can O.D. on is not reccomendable in these cases, i think.

Good point. I would recommend the amount be predetermined and the person can have that dosage at their disposal.

 

[evil804]

might not be an option for all, but when i have a particularly difficult pharma/aya session i engage myself in a physical activity to direct my focus outward. I live in a rather rural area, so if i am having mental issues i tend to put a comedy album/podcast on some headphones and go for a walk. If i am too far gone to walk safely, i will focus on physical excercise in the home such as squats, pushups, chinups, etc... I find that to be a great distraction. laying in bed with the world dissolving around you is just asking for trouble. One of my most terrible trips turned great after i jumped into the pool nude, and spent most of the trip underwater staring up at the stars!

 

[tele]

One of my most terrible trips turned great after i jumped into the pool nude, and spent most of the trip underwater staring up at the stars!

Sounds like good fun, as long as one is able to swim!:lol:

 

[zubidlo]

I had my shares of hellish trips years ago. What always helped me was to walk away from it. Literally just walk fuck away from wherever I was to somewhere else. To different setting. From people to be alone, from town to nature. And keep walking till calm again.
To go to emergency for help is not very useful, all one will get is indeed valium or some anti-psychotic. Plus hard to answer questions and bill. It's cheaper to have some valium at home ready in the case of need. I never used valium to get down, don't like it. Used something very addictive once, worked wonders.

There was an occasion when we felt we need to go to emergency triping: one of us developed greenish color of face which got us worried. Soon we all seem to have a green face. Long story short...we never made it there anyway

 

[polytrip]

From experience i can tell that niacin doesn't abort psychedelic trips.

Maybe some amino-acids like tryptophan or other serotonin boosters like 5-htp could help (don't combine 5-htp with MAOI's!). increasing levels of serotonin should at least partly counteract most psychedelics, since lowering serotonergic activity is one of the main effects of classic hallucinogens.

 

[Apoc]

From experience i can tell that niacin doesn't abort psychedelic trips.

Maybe some amino-acids like tryptophan or other serotonin boosters like 5-htp could help (don't combine 5-htp with MAOI's!). increasing levels of serotonin should at least partly counteract most psychedelics, since lowering serotonergic activity is one of the main effects of classic hallucinogens.

Thanks for the point about niacin. I have never really believed that claim. But wouldn't increasing serotonin levels potentially increase the intensity of psychedelics?

 

[Crystalito]

I do not know if psychedelics "decrease serotonin" in the synaptic cleft, if they do could it be through presynaptic 5HT1a interaction?

I think increasing serotonin may vanish some of the "symptoms" through competition for between serotonin and the molecule in question. Such a tactic though is not advised when MAOI has been co-administered.

 

[Apoc]

I don't know boys. I think when people take enough psychedelics that they freak out, physical symptoms are part of the problem as well. And the physical symptoms are often related to elevated levels of serotonin. Major tremors, odd breathing, a feeling of all muscles contracting, and feeling hot, for example. And in some cases, I think the freakout might be caused by the physical symptoms themselves, as the person might think their body is out of control and about to die. There comes a point where high doses of psychedelics will become physically uncomfortable.

Serotonin syndrome could be a concern, therefore, I wouldn't recommend people take anything that increases serotonin activity, if they are worried they already took too much psychedelics.

No: 5htp, melatonin, l-tryptophan.

 

[The Day Tripper]

I don't know boys. I think when people take enough psychedelics that they freak out, physical symptoms are part of the problem as well. And the physical symptoms are often related to elevated levels of serotonin. Major tremors, odd breathing, a feeling of all muscles contracting, and feeling hot, for example. And in some cases, I think the freakout might be caused by the physical symptoms themselves, as the person might think their body is out of control and about to die. There comes a point where high doses of psychedelics will become physically uncomfortable.

Serotonin syndrome could be a concern, therefore, I wouldn't recommend people take anything that increases serotonin activity, if they are worried they already took too much psychedelics.

No: 5htp, melatonin, l-tryptophan.

That makes sense, but imo its because there's other neurotransmitters jumbled up in the receptors besides serotonin. Increasing serotonin could only work if if somehow blocked the affects of the other neurotransmitters, ie something like having a higher affinity to bind to the receptors. I tend to think its because the receptors themselves are over stimulated, an overload of neurotransmitters.

In that case, gabageric drugs make sense, being the main inhibitory system of neurons. They would inhibit the excitatory state of the neuron, or in my mind numb it to increased stimulation.

I can also attest to having psychological freak outs due to physical symptoms, for me its mostly a racing heart and chest constriction. That triggers anxiety and causes further elevated heartbeat, after a few of these episodes i learned to stop this positive feedback loop, and made myself understand that its the fear causing the problem. I am over-analyzing my health, causing anxiety that causes the symptoms in the first place. It has nothing to do with my heart, because when the panic attack subsides, and I'm still tripping balls, my heart is only slightly above normal.

This also happens all the time before blastoff with changa if i let fear "take the wheel and drive" as it was so eloquently said.

In any case meditation serves a much better way to turn a bad trip good rather then take the easy out and drop something that will calm you down ime. It can just be hard to conjure up the willpower to discipline yourself when you are in the middle of a freakout and tripping balls at the same time.

 

[Apoc]

Yeah, gaba may be a possibility. However, I am still not sure whether gaba inhibits a trip, or potentiates it. I tried to get an answer to that a couple of times, but never felt like I had a concrete answer. Here's a thread I asked about gaba

In theory, it would seem that gaba inhibits everything, but I don't know for certain. I know that benzos are classified as gaba agonists, but I'm not sure if gaba itself has the same effect. I tried to learn about what gaba is, how it works, and how it relates to psychedelics, and I made myself very confused. Still, I wouldn't touch 5htp, melatonin, or l-tryptophan to calm down a psychedelic high.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Serotonin syndrome could be a concern, therefore, I wouldn't recommend people take anything that increases serotonin activity, if they are worried they already took too much psychedelics.

No: 5htp, melatonin, l-tryptophan.

In any case meditation serves a much better way to turn a bad trip good rather then take the easy out and drop something that will calm you down ime. It can just be hard to conjure up the willpower to discipline yourself when you are in the middle of a freakout and tripping balls at the same time.

I wouldn't add any serotonin or pre-cursors if physical symptoms (even psychosomatic) were at play. Better to be safe than sorry. Certainly not if the person in question has had any exposure to anti-deppressants or other psych drugs. Some of them have rather long half-lives. (we've gone through the no SSRI's SNRI's anti-anxiety or psych drugs thing already)

As Day Tripper says, meditation is the best. I don't know how anyone can trip at all without some quiet sitting. CEV's are generally much stronger than OEV's so I can understand how some people might be adverse to performing an activity that would seem to make the trip stronger (and it does)... but it is only by the concerted effort to still the mind and let go, that you can surmount the egoic obstacles that account for any bad tripping. You have to go through the burn to reach your second wind, so to speak. It can be a trial by fire. Except in the rare instances where someone might have accidentally physically poisoned themselves, meditation is the only true path through the forrest.

SWIM recommends getting the meditation out of the way early on. From the 1st inklings of coming on until one has performed what he likes to call "the mental backflip" [think I will add that to the Hyperspace Lexicon] sit there and simply observe and let go of everything that comes into your mind. Be the watcher of your thoughts, completely unconcerned about the content of the muddy river that is flowing by. Added bonus, the rest of your trip will be a) consideably more insightful and useful & b) more vivid, fun, and joyous.

When you have completed the cleansing of your mind, you will know. It can take anywhere from 15 min to damn near the entire trip. If this seems arduous or interferes with the social plans you had for your journey... that's for you to decide. There are certain trip recipes that are good for social interaction... and some that are simply not advisable for much but OOBEing in a completely dark space. I suppose you should be clear about what it is you are taking entheogens to achieve in the first place.

 

[polytrip]

I don't know boys. I think when people take enough psychedelics that they freak out, physical symptoms are part of the problem as well. And the physical symptoms are often related to elevated levels of serotonin. Major tremors, odd breathing, a feeling of all muscles contracting, and feeling hot, for example. And in some cases, I think the freakout might be caused by the physical symptoms themselves, as the person might think their body is out of control and about to die. There comes a point where high doses of psychedelics will become physically uncomfortable.

Serotonin syndrome could be a concern, therefore, I wouldn't recommend people take anything that increases serotonin activity, if they are worried they already took too much psychedelics.

No: 5htp, melatonin, l-tryptophan.

No, classic psychedelic's do not elevate levels of serotonin. They cause serotonin levels to drop. If no MAOI's are taken, serotonin syndrome is not a probable scenario at all.

DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished dramatically. Some psychedelic's like LSD or mescaline increase levels of dopamine on the side. DMT and shrooms do this only in a very modest way when taken in large amounts.

Substances like MDMA increase levels of serotonin, but all of the classic hallucinogens hugely diminish levels of serotonin. Increasing serotonin levels is very likely to reduce at least some of the symptoms of psychedelic's. Especially the psychological effects.

 

[Apoc]

No, classic psychedelic's do not elevate levels of serotonin. They cause serotonin levels to drop. If no MAOI's are taken, serotonin syndrome is not a probable scenario at all.

DMT and other classic hallucinogens stimulate serotonin receptors, but as a result of that, serotonin levels drop and serotonergic activity is diminished dramatically. Some psychedelic's like LSD or mescaline increase levels of dopamine on the side. DMT and shrooms do this only in a very modest way when taken in large amounts.

Substances like MDMA increase levels of serotonin, but all of the classic hallucinogens hugely diminish levels of serotonin. Increasing serotonin levels is very likely to reduce at least some of the symptoms of psychedelic's. Especially the psychological effects.

Hmmmm, I will assume all that is true for a moment. But in the first post in this thread, I said this thread is about aya/pharmahuasca, so people will have taken maoi's. It seems that all the physically uncomfortable symptoms people get from large amounts of ayahuasca, mirror the symptoms of serotonin syndrome. So, I still think it's a really bad idea to take things that are going to further increase serotonin levels in an aya/pharmahuasca trip.