Trying to improve Acacia information

[pablokabute]

it might be Acacia auriculiformis. i will be posting pics real soon.

 

[nen888]

..a recent thread by jamie was asking about the longterm viability of acacia seed..
the hard outer coat of acacias' seeds is a survival strategy against bushfire (& thankfully, in some cases, land clearing)
..the nutritious 'aril' (see Botanical Terms p.17) leads ants to drag the seeds underground..at a few centimetres or more below the surface, the heat of bushfire (if followed by rain) will cause germination..also, bulldozers damaging more deeply buried seed can re-awaken a species from an area it has been apparently extincted from (that said, there are at least 2 australian acacias completely extinct since british arrival..but there could be hope deep in the ground)

stored cool, dry and airtight, most acacia seeds will be viable for at least 5-10 years, likely much longer

..the Royal Botanic Gardens in NSW write: [http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/science/Horticultural_Research/nsw_seedbank/seed_research]

The long lifespan expected for many Australian species is illustrated in NSW by a small batch of Acacia pycnantha seed originating from Australia’s first Arbor Day in 1890, where 80% of seed germinated in 1990 after 100 years of unsealed home storage.

..in one study i read, seeds of A. melanoxylon were still viable after 20 years in seawater! ..but that's still not the record..from "Germination of 151-year old Acacia spp. seeds" by Matti W. Leino and Johan Edqvist:

A collection of seeds from five Acacia species was made in Egypt in 1856. Since then, the seeds have been stored at room temperature in different Swedish museums. Due to the extreme longevity within the seeds of Acacia and related species, germination tests were performed on the now 151-year old seed. Seeds of two of the five species tested germinated. The first, Acacia farnesiana (L.) Willd., had two seeds germinate, and Acacia melanoxylon R. Br. ex Ait. f. had one seed germinate. In addition, DNA was extracted from the aged seed and DNA preservation was analyzed.

..

of course, your main competitors for acacia seed are birds (& the odd ant) .

 

[polmos]

A friend of mine collected some branch bark off the A. Mangium by selectively pruning back some of the branches & harvesting the bark off them to reduce damage to the trees.
He performed an A/B (Lextek) extraction on it and ended up with a white goo that did not crystallize, apparently it smelt just like Freebase NN-DMT,& when enhanced with some leaf & smoked, it had no effects.

Any ideas ?

 

[jamie]

Do we know anything about confusa phyllodes other than the old net reports of no alkaloids? On the corroboree there is a report of someone using a handful of phyllodes in a brew with a few grams of caapi and it being active..

 

[nen888]

..polmos, thanks for the mangium experimental report.. if it has that tryptamine smell it could be subthreshold NMT (seems inactive below about 40mg) or simple tryptamine..could be worth sampling at a different time of year to see if there's variation (as there often is) ..there are a lot species of acacia in north QLD which remain a phytochemical mystery (most, in fact)


jamie wrote:

Do we know anything about confusa phyllodes other than the old net reports of no alkaloids? On the corroboree there is a report of someone using a handful of phyllodes in a brew with a few grams of caapi and it being active..

..a couple of published studies have found in A.confusa phyllodes DMT, DMT-N-Oxide & NMT in smaller amounts than bark, but these tests are more about what's in the plant than maximizing yields, so i would predict, based on bark amounts (& most other acacias) there could be up to 0.3-0.5% alkaloid in leaf if efficiently extracted..also the phyllodes contain flavonoids (myricetin etc. ) which could possibly aid in oral activity, so the report you mention sounds most plausible..
..this should be investigated more, as taking of leaves is more sustainable than bark..see p11#217 for references for A. confusa phyllode alkaloids..
.

 

[nen888]

..an afterword on acacia seeds..the hard coat also allows them to drift across oceans and reach other lands (as A. farnensiana, A. confusa and others have)
i have never seen any published test findings of alkaloids in seeds..quite a few species are edible, and were a staple and important food for indigenous peoples..the protein inside the hard coat is of very high nutritional value, in some cases more nutritious than some meats..food seed species include A. victoriae and A. aneura (Mulga)

..and on the subject of ants

..a well studied ant-acacia symbiosis exists in around five species of acacia known as 'bull-horn acacias' in Sth America and Africa, including Acacia cornigera (Central America) reported to contain psychoactives/tryptamines (Naturheilpraxis Fachforum (German)) [Sth & Central American acacia list here] it is common in Yucatan, known as 'Subin'..

..from a cool little blog http://taxusbaccata.hubpages.com/hub/Bullhorn-Acacia

Pseudomyrmex ferruginea...These stinging ants hunt down any insect that dares to eat the bullhorn acacia young fresh leaves. In fact, these ants are so aggressive that they attack any animal or even humans that touches the tree.

The bullhorn acacia provides two types of food. First, it has well located extraforal nectaries at the lower part of base of its leaves. These nectaries exude continuously sweet nectar, derived from phloem sap, all year round. Second, the bullhorn acacia supplies solid food in the form of protein-lipid nodules called Beltian bodies from its leaflet tips. These perfectly distinguishable orange nodules have no known function other than to provide food for the symbiotic ants and their larvae.

It is hard to measure what benefits the most from this symbiotic and mutualistic relationship between the acacia ants and the bullhorn acacia. The main benefit that the tree gets is that it is free from insects that would damage its leaves and suck its sap. This enormous advantage was demonstrated by removing all the thorns and ant nests of the bullhorn acacia. Being thornless and without ants the bullhorn acacia showed itself vulnerable and life threatened when compared with a normally protected tree. One factor that may account for this disadvantage, when made thornless and without its protective ants, is that bullhorn acacias are deficient in the bitter alkaloids usually located in their leaves that defend them against ravaging insects and animals.

..A. cornigera is often stated in literature to contain alkaloids, but these are never identified..

below are some images of A.cornigera ('Subin') and associates,
& below that one of my favorite characters i've encountered in the wild, an exclusively A. longifolia associated Weevil..

 

[nen888]

..i rely on the thread index now, so i found and added to it a link to a paper on Anti-oxidant properties of Acacia confusa phyllode flavonoids, back on p.12#234..see http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf903569k..among the compounds are quercetin related flavonoids..quercetin has MAOI activity and is also found in Gingko biloba, scottish Heather and american Linden Flower..this study didn't examine alkaloids (see few posts back)
..the flavonoids may increase the effects of the phyllodes if used in conjunction with MAOIs, possibly increasing MAOI sensitivity..

 

[Spice Sailor]

Greetings Nexians

The latest information on seed time viability is incredible, thanks for the all research effort. It's also very useful regarding Acacia sustainability / repopulation / home growing.

Thanks for the information on the extract Polmos. What temperature does your dehydrator operate at? Also did you save and evaporate the poured off non-polar solvent to see what remained? Oils obtained may also be some type of beta-carboline that, with out the presence of other alkaloids is "inactive"?

Nen that photo of the Weevil is great, did you take it? I have encountered these little guys on some of my potted Acacias, they are Botany Bay Diamond weevil (Chrysolopus spectabilis). They feed on new growth and lay eggs in phyllodes and stems and the larvae feed on the root system. Depending on when they emerge in the season colour varies from green to blue.

http://australian-insects.com/diamond-weevil.ph

Happy Learning

 

[nen888]

..thanks for link Spice Sailor..yes, the Botany Bay Diamond Weevil, found from Victoria to S. Qld..it's not my photo, i lifted it..i've seen them silver, but not green..interesting..also spotted on a few other wattles..BTW, young weevils of other species boring into acacia seeds is a quick way to lose viability..keep sealed and airtight..

 

[polmos]

nen888, do you have any more details on A. victoriae ?
What parts of the tree was the material that was tested\bio-assayed from (Trunk Bark, Stems, Phyllodes, etc...) ?
Does it contain mainly: N,N-DMT or 5MeO or NMT etc... & any percentages ?
Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks.

 

[polmos]

One more question,
Would it be worth someone harvesting samples from untested acacia's
during the wet season ?
Or would it be recomended for them to wait till the dryer months ?

 

[nen888]

..hi polmos, an aquaintance in South Australia reported their work with A. victoriae to me early last decade..they used strips of large branch bark (which is like trunk bark) which had been their method with a known dmt species..they were familiar with that species, and described the victoriae extracts as 'very strong' in comparison..as they had no means of having it tested, it's hard to say if there was any 5meo in it (probably not the main alkaloid) but there was certainly DMT.. Trout's tentative finding of 5meoDMT in roots, (DMT stems/phyllodes) was based on TLC which is not as accurate as GCMS or HPLC..but it shows there were tryptamines in there..[see next post for a little more info]
..of course, like many acacias, A. victoriae has a few varieties..

as for testing acacias after lots of rain..my tendency would be to be patient for drier weather, but there really isn't enough data on enough species to be certain of alkaloid reduction..

below, Acacia victoriae (Gundabluie, or Spiky Wattle)..

 

[nen888]

..wow, 20 pages..far out!
i want to look a little at reports of 'tentative' 5methoxyDMT in some acacias, and the testing proceedure..

..here is a summary from Trout's Acacia Notes (2001-3) regarding tentative findings of 5meoDMT in acacias..

5-MeO-DMT
(Reports of this compound relied on co-tlc with known
reference material and a blue reaction with
Xanthydrol. All need confirmation.)
Acacia albida
In twigs. 5 Oct. 1995. tlc by J. Appleseed 1995
Acacia angustissima
Trace amounts tentatively observed in roots
(unconfirmed) in March 1995. tlc by J. Appleseed.
Not observed in second assay.
Trace amounts in seeds. tlc by J. Appleseed 1995
Acacia auriculiformis
Trace amounts in stem-bark (25 April 1995). tlc by
J. Appleseed 1995 (A band at this Rf was also seen
in roots in 2 Sept. 1994 assay but used Ehrlichs
reagent which does not differentiate between DMT
and 5-MeO-DMT.)
Acacia cultriformis
Branch stems, phyllodes and flower spikes of
commercial florist’s material showed separate
positive assay. tlc by J. Appleseed 1996.
Acacia difformis
Stems of two year old seedlings. tlc by J.
Appleseed 1996.
Acacia farnesiana
Traces in green fruit. Not present in ripe fruit. tlc
by J. Appleseed 1995.
Acacia maidenii
Observed in twigs (26 July and in mixed leaf and
twigs 27 Oct. 1995), Traces observed in wood
(October 1995); tlc by J. Appleseed 1995
Acacia nilotica
Trace amounts tentatively observed in seeds
(unconfirmed), 1995 tlc by J. Appleseed. Not
confirmed by subsequent assay. Trace amounts in
separate samples of stems, roots and leaves. 2 yr.
old plant. Unconfirmed. 1996 tlc.
Negative alkaloid assay of roots, stem-bark and
leaves by Odebiyi & Sofowora (1978 ).
Acacia obtusifolia
Presence indicated in multiple human bioassays.
Mulga & anonymous friends.
Acacia victoriae
Roots of two year old seedlings. Good banding. tlc
by J. Appleseed 1996.

..a little should be said regarding colorimetric tests results [see Colorimetric test results (Marquis, Mecke, Ehrlich, etc) for different alkaloids - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus for a great list by endlessness]..
these are tests (such as Appleseed's) where a reagent gives a reaction to an alkaloid..
there is some subjectivity involving the interpretation of the color..

..as an example, let's look at a clue White left in 1944 regarding the base of A. longifolia (which he concluded was simple tryptamine, without absolute proof):

“Alkaloid agents gave mostly oils, but the
picrate at times showed fern-like forms.”
Base decomposed on manipulation and
standing, developing a skatole like odor and gave
intense blue with p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde.
[Ehrlich’s reagent]

..now, from the references gathered by endlessness in the linked thread, with Ehrlich's reagent DMT turns "Reddish purple - (as acetate on paper) ", and 5meoDMT is said to turn "Royal Blue on silica gel"..this however refers to the pure compounds under certain conditions..from my limited work with reagents i have seen that a pure alkaloid will give a slightly different hue to one which is, say, 70-80% pure..using Ehrlich's reagent/acetone, australian researcher 'J' takes Blue to indicate tryptamines generally, with GCMS usually showing it to be, in acacias, DMT..in fact, confirmation of 5meoDMT has to date proved rare in acacias, and usually as a trace along with DMT..in A. longifolia (varieties) DMT has been confirmed by extraction a number of times..Ehrlich's reagent and even Xanthydrol (see below) may not always be reliable at differentiating between tryptamines, especially when multiple tryptamines are be present..

so, for A. victoriae Trout wrote:

Good banding was observed in our 1995 tlc assays of
this species. DMT was observed in the aerial parts
and 5-MeO-DMT in the roots. Both are tentative
and need confirmation.
Both relied entirely on co-chromatography with known
reference standards and color reaction with
xanthydrol (Purple for DMT/ Blue for 5-MeODMT.)
Observations by Trout. tlc by J. Appleseed.

from personal notes & observations, 5meoDMT has co-occurred with DMT in reasonable amounts in A. sophorae (erect form) and A. elata (ID awaiting confirmation, seasonal) ..'J' has reportedly confirmed it as the main alkaloid in 1 species, and A. mearnsii was rumored in the past..

..finally, i found this interesting list given by Trout (2001) for future research (a few already confirmed with DMT):

Species suspected of containing tryptamine
derivatives and needing assays or preliminary
results indicate a need for further study;
Acacia abyssinica, A. albida, A. alpina, A.
angustissima, A. auriculiformis, A. benadirensis,
A. burkei, A. caffra, A.catechu, A. cornigera, A.
dallachiana, A. delayayi, A.difformis, A. durrens,
A. etbaica, A. farnesiana, A. ferruginea, A. giraffe,
A. hetercensis, A. implexa, A. intsia, A. koa, A.
koaia (a rare Hawaiian endemic in desperate need
of cultivation), A. longifolia, A. macradenia, A.
macrothyrsa, A. mellifera, A. montis-usti, A.
nilotica, A. nilotica var. subalata, A. obtusifolia
(distinct chemical varieties of this species appear
to exist), A. orites, A.. pennata, A. piauhyensis, A.
redolens, A. reficiens, A. rhodoxylon, A. saligna, A.
shirleyi, A. sophorae, A. sparsiflora, A.
stenophylla, A. stuhlmanni, A. victoriae and A.
yunnanensis

..some of the interesting acacias in this list, not yet looked at, pictured below are
Acacia yunnanensis (native to China), A. ferruginea (endemic to Sri Lanka, and endangered)
& A. shirleyi (found in North Queensland and N.T., Australia)

 

[nen888]

..below is Acacia decurrens (Sydney Green Wattle) ,which has a few varieties..it has tested positive for alkaloids..below that the related A. dealbata also in need of research..
below that is a green Diamond Weevil, as reported by Spice Sailor

 

[acacian]

nen you wouldn't happen to have any info on possible alkaloid content of Acacia Iteaphylla would you?

 

[nen888]

..^bricklaya, i've never heard of it being screened in any way, totally open for scientific research..as are about 1000 other acacias..!

ps. a reminder for newcomers INDEX OF THIS THREAD p.1

 

[E]

Hi nen888 ! Thank you for these responses ...

..welcome endophytik, the first is indeed A. baileyana, but there are a few unpublished tests of this species indicating larger amounts of tryptamines/betacarbolines..a single reference to low percentages should never be treated as definitive information as to what is likely to be in a plant..i would say it's well worth experimenting with A. baileyana..we need more data..only if repeated multiple tests found little alkaloid would i accept a statement of low alkaloid content..i have even been told by one fairly good source that it has yielded DMT..

OK. I will give it a try. I have a question tough ... let's admit I perform this extraction, how do you evaluate this tryptamine/betacarbolines ratio. How do you even asses the presence of DMT in the total alc. extract ? I mean suposing you don't have analytical methods (TLC, GC-MS ...) and standards ? Do you evaluate this by the aspect of your product or "simply" by ... smoking it ? :shock:

..off the top of my head..2. is possibly a variety Acacia decurrens or A.dealbata (naturalized in Sth. America), a hybrid, or perhaps a form of A. nilotica (also in northern Sth. America) ..will have to compare pods and flowers carefully, plus number of pinnae)

OK. I shall make other detailed pic lateron. Meanwhile here are photos of the seed of N° 2, maybe it can help you for the ID.
I first tought it was A. macracantha because I found this paper "Taxonomic Revision of South American Species of the Genus Acacia Subgenus Acacia (Fabaceae- Mimosoideae), Systematic Botany (2000), 25(4): pp. 588-617" and the repartition area was concording. But later on I saw that macracantha meaned "long-spined" and it seems that this guy has no spines ... So this means that they are more than 13 Acacia species in South-America (as stated by the precedent paper) ?

..3. is (i think) a Senna (Fabaceae) many with laxative properties,
and 4. is a Callistemon, australian natives in Myrtaceae known as 'Bottlebrushes'..mainly cineol type volatile oils similar to eucalypts in them..natural insect repellent..

Ok, thank you ... but no personal problems with mosquitoes nor constipation :lol:

..below is Acacia decurrens (Sydney Green Wattle) ,which has a few varieties..it has tested positive for alkaloids..below that the related A. dealbata also in need of research..
below that is a green Diamond Weevil, as reported by Spice Sailor

Nice animal !

 

[nen888]

..the absence of spines and the pod shape (plus large number of pinnae) are making me take my time to ID pic 2, endophytik, but is is an acacia..that said there is a little haziness between Acacia and Mimosa in botanical definitions..

So this means that they are more than 13 Acacia species in South-America (as stated by the precedent paper) ?

..yes, and thank you for that paper , i will study it..i'm no expert on South American acacias, but i know that new ones have been named in the past decade (some mistaken previously as Mimosas) including
A. santossi and A. olivensana, one of which may be A. jurema, used in afro-brazillian ayahuasca ceremony..[see p.9#167]
below is a list i found of all acacias recorded in Bolivia (couldn't find a similar Columbia record) *=non-native [from Acacia]

Acacias recorded in Bolivia
Acacia albicorticata
Acacia alemquerensis
Acacia altiscandens
Acacia ampeloclada
Acacia angustissima*
Acacia aroma
Acacia atramentaria
Acacia boliviana
Acacia bonariensis
Acacia caven
Acacia cultriformis*
Acacia dealbata*
Acacia eburnea
Acacia emilioana
Acacia etilis
Acacia farnesiana
Acacia feddeana
Acacia furcatispina
Acacia glomerosa
Acacia karroo*
Acacia langsdorfii
Acacia loretensis
Acacia macbridei
Acacia macracantha
Acacia martiusiana
Acacia mearnsii*
Acacia melanoxylon*
Acacia monacantha
Acacia multipinnata
Acacia paniculata (maybe synon. M. hostilis)
Acacia parviceps
Acacia pedicellata
Acacia polyphylla
Acacia praecox
Acacia retinodes*
Acacia riparia
Acacia rurrenabaqueana
Acacia rynchocarpa
Acacia saligna*
Acacia tenuifolia (synon. Mimosa hostilis)
Acacia tucumanensis
Acacia velutina
Acacia visco

..some of these are rare South American species which i'm still learning about..some are synonymous with other species..
an interesting one is Acacia paniculata, which is reported now as synonymous with Mimosa hostilis (itself synon. with A. tenuiflora) ..what is interesting (for australians) is that this species is recorded growing in Cape York Peninsula, Australia..!?

..as for what constitutes an acacia vs. a mimosa, i would argue chemical genetics should be taken into account..therefore M. hostilis, based on chemistry, would be an acacia, whereas M. pudica (Sensitive Plant, contains Mimosine, but no tryptamines) would be a mimosa..to make matters more confusing, botanists with nothing better to do have re-classified many sth. american 'acacias' as Vachellia..there are 186 'acacias' (incl. vachellia) recorded from the americas according to world wide wattle..this includes introduced..

lastly, you wrote:

suposing you don't have analytical methods (TLC, GC-MS ...) and standards ? Do you evaluate this by the aspect of your product or "simply" by ... smoking it ?

..well, this is a tricky area to give advice on, but that is what this author and others have done..on p13 #247 i discussed the risks of acacia bioassay..to date there have been no adverse reactions from one-off smoking of acacia extracts which aren't dmt..smell is a key indicator of tryptamines, but as i must always say an unknown is a risk, and most people don't want to be test pilots..
..TLC and re-agents are not really any more difficult than a good clean extraction..
.

so, with acacias of South America being such a rich area for both botanical and phytochemical research, here's two bipinnate species (endophytik's photo 2 being bipinnate) which could be in Coumbia..
..the 'type' specimens for Acacia ampeloclada, and Acacia velutina..below them A. macracantha (but it, as mentioned, has thorns on branches and trunk) ..it's very wide distribution (Florida to Sth America) suggests there may be different varieties..

..a recently eventually successful and cool A. floribunda extraction report here:
Acacia floribunda - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus..

.

 

[nen888]

..hi endophytik, and what a bizarre day to post on this dmt-nexus!

..despite the resemblance to A. cyclops, i think it is actually a form of A. melanoxylon, due to the 'racemes' being 5-numerous and the reverting to juvenile growth.. (A. cyclops the racemes or flower clusters are 2-numerous, and the aril more scarlet) ..while the more twisted-pod form of melanoxylon has been tested several times and only found to have minimal dmt, i'm not sure about this form..

Paraserianthes lophantha has no chemical tests i have heard of..the strange and unfortunate case of the majority of the world's plants..being not actually an acacia would suggest more caution in investigating to me..

..i will have some time to try and properly identify the bipannate acacia (no.2) this week..will take a bit of comparing..be more than happy if someone else beats me too it..it's the pod shape/size that's really interesting..may well be a native..

when i mentioned 186 species names recorded for S. America, this would include many synonyms and introduced species..i'm still researching just how many acacias there are on the continent..
.

ps. i hope yatiqiri is ok..based on his last experiment, Acacia tortuosa is a South American/Carribean acacia worth investigating [see p.12] ..according to the taxonomic revision paper attached by endophytik it is very closely related to A. farnensiana..

 

[E]

hi nen888 !

..despite the resemblance to A. cyclops, i think it is actually a form of A. melanoxylon, due to the 'racemes' being 5-numerous and the reverting to juvenile growth.. (A. cyclops the racemes or flower clusters are 2-numerous, and the aril more scarlet) ..while the more twisted-pod form of melanoxylon has been tested several times and only found to have minimal dmt, i'm not sure about this form..

Too bad ... Anyway I think I'll try extracting this one since it's more abundant. What about a DMT-containing sub-species ? :roll:

..i will have some time to try and properly identify the bipannate acacia (no.2) this week..will take a bit of comparing..be more than happy if someone else beats me too it..it's the pod shape/size that's really interesting..may well be a native..

Ok, thanks for the help. I'll be looking the thread ...

ps. i hope yatiqiri is ok..based on his last experiment, Acacia tortuosa is a South American/Carribean acacia worth investigating [see p.12] ..according to the taxonomic revision paper attached by endophytik it is very closely related to A. farnensiana..

This week end I traveled to the quite hotter lands of Cali (Colombia) and saw LOTS of acacia-looking species. I'm quite shure I saw this A. tortuosa, same spines, sames zigag branches ... nevertheless they don't live up here.