Trying to improve Acacia information

[Seldom]

for sure, but remember lextek is a product of the nexus, i've seen the thread it emerged through i would think you can find it if you search, the member that made it is still active on at least 1 other forum. was just 1 person posting a single .pdf. makes you think.

really it's to the tree's benefit that they can be difficult with entry level extraction skills, as though they can show people they're not just an alternative for those that are too scared to order Confusa or MHRB..

 

[acacian]

^..did you use phosphoric acid? ..from memory, these are the reports that 'didn't work'..
but, yeah, essentially what puts me off the 'handbook' is the pictures of trunk-stripped bark (poor old obtusifolia CANNOT sustain this kind of wild harvesting, and is declining in wild populations ALREADY as a result), and the gratuitous shots of giant wood-chipper machines..and NO MENTION OF SUSTAINABILITY, being sensitive to plants, growing them, or even alternate species..it was partly this 'handbook' which made me want to punch my computer screen and curse the cowboy-logger aussie-dmt scene, until i realized education and discussion were the answer (actually the plants told me that, but some people in here get worked up at a 'subjective' statement like that)
..so, WHOEVER WROTE THE 'DMT-HANDBOOK' - HAVE A THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THESE TREES WHO'VE GIVEN YOU YOUR DMT..and ponder the merits of not having trafficable amounts..

..phew! sorry everyone else..had to get that off my chest..

may the trees bring you knowledge and love, kind ones..
.

well said nen thanks for clearing that up.. nah never use phosphoric... always vinegar.. or if i have no vinegar then citric or tartaric

 

[nen888]

..thanks r2pi, Seldom and brickie for your comments..
as there's a parallel discussion on A/B and salt form of DMT in another current thread [concept of an A/B],
just though i'd remind you all that the possible salt form of DMT in acacias was discussed in this post....as well as discussion of tars/resins..
see ya all about..

 

[Ambivalent]

very interesting read Nen888, alot of new info. looking at this, i can see that the chemistry is far more complex inside the plants.as i understand many acidic compounds can contribute for the bonding of the dmt as a salt inside the metabolic processes of a tree.

 

[nen888]

^..yeah, it's a very interesting subject which i'd like to research more..also, plants are constantly changing their internal chemistry dynanmic to deal with changes in moisture, temperature..even attacks by insect (& i'd say human) predators..there's a biology paper i'll try and dig up in which it was found that acacias modified their bark chemistry after insect borer attack (more phenolic compounds as defence)
..and also, plants communicate with eachother with chemical signalling via root-systems/soil..even between different species..they 'know' what's around them in the environment..

..while i'm here, i'll comment personally briefly on what is now 20 years of having first met the acacia as a plant teacher..never stopped, but approach and wisdom evolve..devotion only increased..though, such a way (is not probably) for the merely curious..

as the Buddhists say of 'the Path'..
"Better not to begin..once you begin, you had better finish..."

and no, never sell the trees..their blood

take care all..
@

 

[acacian]

negative results on the stem and branch bark of the mucronata var. longifolia... logged my progress.. as follows:

34 grams of dry shredded acacia mucronata stem and branch bark was soaked for three days in ethanol and a splash of white vinegar. roughly 600mls water was added to the ethanol and acacia to reach a ph4 and then boiled for about 2 hrs until the solution no longer smelled of ethanol. the solution was then poured off and another acid cook was done.. this time without ethanol. the two boils were then combined, strained with cotton wool and left to decant any excess particles overnight. the combined pulls were reduced to 550mls, and filtered again. 37g caustic soda was added giving a ph of 12.7 (overshot here was going for 12). 100mls warm shellite was added and gently mixed for the next half hr... shellite was then separated and left in a glass dish to evap... i havent done anymore pulls as i thought i'd see if anything at all came out in the first... negative.

the shellite i used should be fine as I have extracted from known species with consistent success, though I have some xylene and may try doing a pull with that to see if anything comes of it

chipping away at 120g of the phyllodes from the same plant.
harvesting time was about 10 in the morning.. it had rained heavily two days beforehand so that may well have been a strong contributing factor. tree was abut 2.5 meters in height and looked fairly young.

 

[acacian]

bah i can't believe it .. forgot about the pot of boiling phyllodes and it ended up burning to a crisp :/ il have to try again another time

 

[nen888]

..sorry to hear that and thanks for the work bricklaya..a couple of points have struck me..

first, the more i study the photos you sent (in the Acacia ID Thread) i'm beginning to feel my ID was hasty, and we may be looking at a narrow-phyllode victorian strain of longifolia..

second, i've never actually had a successful acacia experiment during flowering..incl. obtusifolia, which was greatly reduced and changed..so, after the excitement of identification it can take a couple of months waiting for the flowers to cease, seeds to develop and mature..

you're a great researcher brickie..please keep it comin' in..! (btw, for a quick experiment, over-basifying a bit not too big a worry)

below, very typical Acacia mucronata var. longifolia (usually a small tree near steam edges, very easy to obtain seed commercially)..the flowers are often paler (cream)

 

[Spice Sailor]

Hey brickie what were you left with after the evap from the mucronata? Tiny bit of goo?

I think many people have experienced this result from extracting during flowering. And its starting to makes sense to me a bit as plants must alter their chemistry to grow reproductive organs, flowers, bracts etc.

Is there any information regarding alkaloid level variations in other DMT containing genus' ( Psychotria, Phalaris) during flowering?

Spice Sailor

 

[acacian]

not even really goo.. surface of dish was slightly moist with the same smell i get from my floribunda fails
yeah it was just starting to flower. interesting nen about it maybe being a narrow phyllode longifolia ... would make sense as i found it in a forest of longifolias... i checked the length of the phyllodes and compared to the info on this page: http://www.worldwidewattle.com/speciesgallery/images/mucronata_subsp_longifolia.jpg.. phyllode size and width was the same (did vary a little depending on the particular branch, and the younger plants seemed to have shorter and narrower phyllodes.) but some of the phyllodes were rounded at the edge, looking extremely similar to the regular acacia mucronata, but too long

i think it would be best if i took photos of the trees for i.d. to confirm....

 

[acacian]

love that photo by the way.. love the presence to the mucronatas... the branches are like arms extending their hands with their fingers(the erect phyllodes of course!) positioned up as if they're summoning something (or maybe some other force summoning them ) . all the acacia's have such a unique presence i can't get my head around it. not to downgrade all other nature or anything its all beautiful... but i dunno.. i really feel a differen't aura from the acacia trees. i guess it could have to do with associating them being carriers of a compound that is a big part of my life.. but there seems to be a genuinely unique and intelligent "teacher" vibe about a lot of them. i guess that may go hand in hand with them carrying the compound

 

[Spice Sailor]

Hey Radmotion, there is an ID thread in the Collaborative Research area specifically for Acacia's.
More likely to get some ID help if you post those lovely images in there.
Cheers - Spice Sailor

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/library/A4_Acacia_revision2004.pdf

Just noticed this was online now, I hope this has not been posted previously

 

[nen888]

^..thanks AlbertKLloyd..it was actually already linked about 15 pages ago or so way back in the thread..any relevant info in it is covered within the thread, and, as mentioned when it was linked before, it is, while the vanguard of it's time, now getting rapidly out of date (i.e. add about 20-30 more confirmed species, plus the new phytochemical analysis done here at the Nexus..)
..and good on Trout..he's a fine man..

and, yeah radmotion, like SpiceSailor says..all IDs now in the Acacia Identification Thread..
.

 

[Spice Sailor]

Hey pirate b0b, your technique sounds pretty reliable. To aid emulsions in the future add more NaOH instead of salt ( usuming you ment table salt, (sodium chloride). It should not over basify the polar layer / effect non-polar extraction.

But I feel the main issue with your extraction is, from the photo's, that the Acacia tested was in flower. In my experience, and others, performing tests during this time results in an undesirable outcome..

Spice Sailor

 

[sharpstuff]

Hey guys been lurking this thread so thought I'd contribute some Acacia's I have been experimenting with

First off I live in the arid area of Western Australia so A. Burkitti subsp. of Acuminta is common around here. (lots of look a likes though so not as easy as it seems) I have succsessfully extracted 500mg of spice from 280g of Phylloyds of the First set of Acacia photos (Identified as A. Burkitti by me) following Lex A/B TEK. Phylloyd's where slightly terate about 7-10cm long and curving at the end.

Also found a similar looking group of shrubs that seemed the same but had different stem color, and longer phylloyd's I can upload pictures of it if you guys would like?

 

[Spice Sailor]

Hey pirateb0b, do you think the leiocalyx was dying from old age? I'm not sure if that could effect the presence / amount of tryptamines in the material. If there has been heavy rain it is a possibility. But more likely would be seasonal variance in chemistry / devoid strain?

It may also be that desired alkaloids are not only absest during flowering but remain absent untill a specific time / window of the year (for example only during one month).

And I see how NaOH wasn't really an option when doing a acidic np defat. Another technique that has helped me with emulsions in the humble hot bath. The salting idea is a good idea too, was just the ph alteration, as you mentioned, that I was thinking of when I read it. I wouldn't think 5.5 would be enough to freebase DMT.

Spice Sailor

 

[Gowpen]

Hi all, some results I have been getting may be of interest to the extraction of DMT from Acacia Acuminata generally but especially to the eco/sustainable harvest lobby, to whom I subscribe passionately.
Small twigs/dried end shoots up to 2mm thick versus twigs,Sticks from 2mm up to 7mm, 2mm thick Stem bark from 30mm branch and phyllodes.

I thought DMT may have accumilated in Acacia 'older' bark.
These tests do suggest to me that the fresher twigs towards the leaves have proportionatley the same DMT in them as any other parts of the bark, as do the phyllodes. All from the same small branch retreived from one big tree (It was a small toenail in comparason to the size of this hidden tree).

It appears that DMT is as abundant in the smallest twigs and phyllodes of the plant, as it is in the older bark. Might be my technique but to my thinking, DMT is a whole system in the plant, not just a compound made over time and stored. Who knows..

The in-between small branches were the hardest to extract from, separating the bark from the wood proved extremely hard, with twigs the easiest also. Phyllodes dry. All ground up to powder in coffee grinder.

In addition, I did a small 100gm extract from the same samples 3 months after harvest. The results are very similar to the initial ones and may indicated storage and other possibilities. They were air dried under a carport.

Lastly, as for sustainable harvest. This one small branch, no taller than myself and weighing very little as sticks go, could very easily last me a life time. I have collected more than 2gms from very little material.

People need ONLY collect small amounts of fast growing material (small twigs) to extract from. Infact, by surface area, the twigs are greater than bark by weight and in DMT, I am trying to say that 500mgs bark could VERY easily kill a plant, whereas 500gms of small twigs (yeilding the same amount of DMT or more) would not.
Hope this helps convince anyone considering extracting that only the smallest amount is needed, and yes twigs are best. :thumb_up:
Love and Peas
G

 

[nen888]

^^ great to get another confirmation of the power of the twig! thanks Gowpen

..well, i must say i'm really enjoying this thread after being away for a week..
still reading it all..thanks everyone for the info..

and good one sharpstuff..i think you should be immediately promoted..:?:

back soon..

 

[behindthelight]

Ok, so I haven't read the entire thread yet, 36 pages is a lot. Has anyone figured out a tek that works with Acicia? Is so and it is in this thread, what page?