Trying to improve Acacia information

[nen888]

..ok, a quick opinion rant on behalf of local trees..

it's been brought to my attention that a number of people are using acacias in place of chacruna in circles which they are calling 'Ayahuasca'..i feel this is both extremely disrespectful to the spirit of the Acacia, and not doing justice to the south american tradition (which is so fashionable atm) by substituting quite different charactered plants..if a specifically south american ritual is the aim, then just grow those plants..it doesn't take long..

and, especially, please don't wild harvest acacias for these purposes..i.e to be hidden in a brew with other intent..perhaps even commercial intent..

the acacia (in a number of continents) is it's own ancient lore and vibration..i would encourage people who seem in a hurry to take the time to learn for themselves how this spirit is different..and that can take time, and work..

but please..don't call tree based brews 'ayahuasca'..it's misrepresentation (even if merely intended as 'shorthand')..and as many acacias have additional alkaloids, such brews will not behave the same way..and can be even more demanding on diet (and intent)
.

 

[nen888]

..here's quite a good little piece on the Acacia Tree in India..

it divides Acacia catechu into 3 sub-types..catechu, catechuoides, and sundra
(which could help explain any content differences as research on the species continues) ..i've noticed a few more Indian nexians appearing lately..

below is the common Indian male Lora, foraging in Acacia suma (p57, used in vedic exorcism)

 

[acacian]

thanks for posting your perspective there nen i've actually been wondering about that recently... other than in a commercial setting, i was just wondering what your view was on using rue or caapi to potentiate acacia? as well as thoughts on mixing acacia species for oral use.. I am germinating some acacia complanata seeds at the moment, the reason being that I wanted to find a native to help with brews to try and keep it of the same genus and hopefully of a more similar intent

 

[nen888]

..hi acacian how's mucro going..?

as far as oral activators go, i agree with a comment by chocobeastie earlier in the thread that rue really brings out the acacia ally, but caapi is also good..just remember some acacias already have harmalas, so dosage can vary a lot..

know thy tree..

A. complanata certainly warrants more research..baileyana too..to be a bit vague..
but i admit, for now, i'm keeping the native maoi card close to my chest (publicly at least) while the whole 'i can hold circles' aya craze is on..part of having the skills for 'shamanic' work includes, imo, being able to find and intuit plants..
and it doesn't feel in the interests of trees to expose them to this kind of culture, which is very fast and hasn't spent a lot of time (in many cases, it seems) really learning directly from the plants, but rather word of mouth..

anyways acacian..you're intuition is good, as is your path

 

[acacian]

..hi acacian how's mucro going..?

as far as oral activators go, i agree with a comment by chocobeastie earlier in the thread that rue really brings out the acacia ally, but caapi is also good..just remember some acacias already have harmalas, so dosage can vary a lot..

know thy tree..

A. complanata certainly warrants more research..baileyana too..to be a bit vague..
but i admit, for now, i'm keeping the native maoi card close to my chest (publicly at least) while the whole 'i can hold circles' aya craze is on..part of having the skills for 'shamanic' work includes, imo, being able to find and intuit plants..
and it doesn't feel in the interests of trees to expose them to this kind of culture, which is very fast and hasn't spent a lot of time (in many cases, it seems) really learning directly from the plants, but rather word of mouth..

anyways acacian..you're intuition is good, as is your path

mucro is still awaiting my arrival which will probably not be for a few days as it rained today - so I think it would be good to wait till its a bit dryer..i'm just finishing up some floribunda which I collected at the same as the mystery acacia at the moment... i've been logging that as well (the extraction of course.. not the tree) so I will chuck it up in the extraction workspace. the mystery acacia has gotten me back into my extracting rhythm again.. as well as the amount of interesting acacia's in the area... was especially happy to find mucronata and maidenii growing here

..hey the mucronata I'll be testing this time is from a different area (i haven't been back out around the warrendyte area as I have no access to a car at the moment) and has some slight genetic differences too.. phyllodes seem slightly broader... more prostrate than the other trees i've seen but I suspect that is due to being pruned a lot being in such a busy area...it is next to a very busy highway. the photos of it are in the identificaiton thread if you wanna have a look to confirm i.d.. still pretty sure its subs. mucronata. also it has developed flower rods.. do you think the alkaloid variance applies before the actual blooming of the rods? also it only rained for about 25 minutes today do you think that would make much difference to alkaloids?

hope your well

 

[JourneyToJah]

Could anyone help me with an ID on these photos ?

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[nen888]

..acacian, 25mins rain shouldn't be an issue..

JourneyToJah..really you're meant to post ID in the Acacia Identification Thread..
but for now, and with my ID eyes a bit more on it this week, looks like A. retinodes..or relative..single prominent phyllode nerve, slightly glaucous (see Botanical Terms Relevant to Acacias) ..what region of the planet are they?
i have attached one of your pics below as things vanish on imageshack..of course, certain ID requires pods/flowers..

 

[nen888]

..starting to assemble things for the book of acacia..little while off yet though..some public talks first..

in the meanwhile, a few more little bits to ingest, from this interesting summary on Ancient Egyptian Plants> ÷éáåõ øùôéí - øùôéí- ÷äéìðè

In mythology, the first gods were born under the sacred acacia tree of the goddess Saosis, identified with Hathor, and Horus was also said to have emerged from it. The acacia of Heliopolis was a tree in which life and death was decided upon, similar to the ished tree. Acacia and palm carried the sun god Re:

... the Boat of Ra arrived at the town of Het-Aha; its forepart was made of palm wood, and the hind part was made of acacia wood; thus the palm tree and the acacia tree have been sacred trees from that day to this.
[From the Legend of Horus of Behutet and the winged disk]

and from https://cowofgold.wikispaces.com/Acacia

According to myths, the acacia protected the body of Osiris, and the acacia was known as Nht Hnmt Ntr ("The Tree That Encloses the God." ) Both the acacia and the palm carried the sun god Ra across the sky: "The Barque of Ra arrived at the town of Het-Aha; its forepart was made of palm wood, and the hind part was made of acacia wood; thus the palm tree and the acacia tree have been sacred trees

below, Horus and the Acacia,
and then Hathor and Nut, tree goddesses..

 

[shanedudddy2]

Curious about how rainfall effects alkaloid content in bark and phyllodes of acacia.
Anyone know how long after a heavy rain occurs that the alkaloid content return to acceptable levels?
a day or 2?

 

[chocobeastie]

it's been brought to my attention that a number of people are using acacias in place of chacruna in circles which they are calling 'Ayahuasca'..i feel this is both extremely disrespectful to the spirit of the Acacia, and not doing justice to the south american tradition (which is so fashionable atm) by substituting quite different charactered plants..if a specifically south american ritual is the aim, then just grow those plants..it doesn't take long..

Respectfully, I disagree with some of your opinions here Nen.

Ayahuasca is the name of the vine, in South America many different plants are added for "the light" or DMT content, but the brew is considered to be Ayahuasca whatever the DMT admixture plant.

These brews work very well, and many people have been using Acacias in Ayahuasca for many, many years. I am not sure why you think this is disrespectful to the spirit of the Acacia. If people are taking these brews with sincerity and openess, and trying to learn from these plants, I feel this can only be a good thing.

The only thing I would be wary of, is when rare species are given to very large amounts of people. Something in me feels that mom and pop shouldn't be too readily given these very special acacias except under very special occaisons.

And yes, for sure, these rarer species should be grown.

and, especially, please don't wild harvest acacias for these purposes..i.e to be hidden in a brew with other intent..perhaps even commercial intent..

Species like Acuminata phyllodes work very well, and I cannot see how with the prevalence of this tree, that this sort of harvesting is not appropriate. Sure, by all means grow your own, but older trees in the wild have a certain wisdom about them.

In Australia, there is just not the prevalence of Chackruna that people have grown, whereas, Acacia is very available.

I do prefer to work with the Acacia, and find Chackruna to be too tainted by a cultural associations.

 

[acacian]

..acacian, 25mins rain shouldn't be an issue..

2 days rain now... hoping i can at least get a week without.. at this rate its going to start flowering before i get a good dry period.. its already developed its rods. :/ i plan to test it anyways when it flowers but I don't really see the point while its raining heavily.. won't really be accurate results of the trees profile

regarding the discussion of brews.. I think as long as the persons intent is pure, the trees will in return teach them with the purity that the deserve.. and in a sense that is a token of the respect they show. the vine obviously gives good results for many people... i have not used the vine myself other than in early changa mixes so I cannot comment from personal experience.

I have talked to many who enjoy the acacia and aya combination though... I have no real problem with it other than the potential risks it could incur in a commercial setting...and I have faith that the acacia will let people know when they are being disrespectful.... what irks me is the commercial exploitation of the wild plants without any regard to their wellbeing- and i think if that makes its way into the ayahuasca scene then this could become a reality. I think if commercial aya circles are going to gain prevalence using acacia then plants should be grown for said purposes... taking material from the wild may seem all well and good now but it won't last forever. It may have been differen't in a tribal setting.. but there are a lot mroe people in the world today

personally, I am pretty set on exploring native MAOI's and the idea of a more pure acacia experience.. I am also very interested in the vine and have been interested for a long time in the shamanistic culture surrounding it... i plan to experiment with it when I get a chance, but something to me about using native trees of the same soil really speaks to me.. something just feels pure about it...again.. this is just personal preference and I guess it differs from person to person

for some however.. their interest does not lie in the plants that provide the experience so much - they are merely seeking healing .. and I personally feel that this attitude should still be respected... so long as it does not involve harm

 

[nen888]

Respectfully, I disagree with some of your opinions here Nen.

Ayahuasca is the name of the vine, in South America many different plants are added for "the light" or DMT content, but the brew is considered to be Ayahuasca whatever the DMT admixture plant.

These brews work very well, and many people have been using Acacias in Ayahuasca for many, many years. I am not sure why you think this is disrespectful to the spirit of the Acacia. If people are taking these brews with sincerity and openess, and trying to learn from these plants, I feel this can only be a good thing.

The only thing I would be wary of, is when rare species are given to very large amounts of people. Something in me feels that mom and pop shouldn't be too readily given these very special acacias except under very special occaisons.

And yes, for sure, these rarer species should be grown.

and, especially, please don't wild harvest acacias for these purposes..i.e to be hidden in a brew with other intent..perhaps even commercial intent..

Species like Acuminata phyllodes work very well, and I cannot see how with the prevalence of this tree, that this sort of harvesting is not appropriate. Sure, by all means grow your own, but older trees in the wild have a certain wisdom about them.

In Australia, there is just not the prevalence of Chackruna that people have grown, whereas, Acacia is very available.

I do prefer to work with the Acacia, and find Chackruna to be too tainted by a cultural associations.

..while i agree that the indigenous potion is called originally 'ayahuasca', meaning that the vine is used to study other plants, this is not the context i am talking about..i haven't heard about many people just drinking the vine for instance..a certain kind of expectation has been created by increased western interest in ayahuasca, hence people expect the chacruna..modern adaptations like the santo diame for instance..
..what i'm referring to are commercial settings in which the 'clients' are told they're getting 'ayahuasca' implying the south american beverage, and then an acacia is substituted without homage being paid to it..sometimes they aren' even told..

the wild harvesting of acacias in any commercial context is to me unsustainable and the most disrespectful of acts,
i feel a number of people are taking advantage of the environment without doing anything for it or the plants themselves..in south america the majority of ayahuasqueros grow the plants..any kind of scale of use requires this..just taking from the bush and not giving back leads, imo, to an unhappy situation..

those who i know who have drunk acacia the longest put the focus on the acacia, and honour it..

if i might generalise to make a point, in the past few years i hear most of the respect directed towards acacias coming from the more responsible in the 'dmt' world..and very little from people in the 'ayahuasca' scenes..yes the ayahuasca vine is great plant..so is the acacia..i think the perspective of where the teachings come from needs to be balanced..

it makes me sad to hear of touching 'older trees in the wild'..
these are the seed mothers..

look at what happened to peyote after increased interest in the 60s..
not many if any old cactus left in the wild..


will people never learn from the mistakes of the past..?

 

[acacian]

commercial settings in which the 'clients' are told they're getting 'ayahuasca' implying the south american beverage, and then an acacia is substituted without homage being paid to it..sometimes they aren' even told..

the perspective of where the teachings come from needs to be balanced..

..very good points nen that is an aspect I hadn't considered

 

[chocobeastie]

..what i'm referring to are commercial settings in which the 'clients' are told they're getting 'ayahuasca' implying the south american beverage, and then an acacia is substituted without homage being paid to it..sometimes they aren' even told..

yeah, I can see that element there in the ayahuasca scene, where perhaps the Acacia is not truly seen for itself, for its own teachings and wisdom and is advertised to be the rinky dink South American deal, when actually it is a unique and special brew.

I know there are some people who use Syrian Rue and Acacia, which I feel brings out the teachings of the Acacia more.

i feel a number of people are taking advantage of the environment without doing anything for it or the plants themselves..in south america the majority of ayahuasqueros grow the plants..any kind of scale of use requires this..just taking from the bush and not giving back leads, imo, to an unhappy situation..

I do agree with you about this. Although, I am not in a position to grow plants, I try and collect seeds where appropriate and share them wide and far - often to people whose intention is to grow the trees in their native setting.

if i might generalise to make a point, in the past few years i hear most of the respect directed towards acacias coming from the more responsible in the 'dmt' world..and very little from people in the 'ayahuasca' scenes..yes the ayahuasca vine is great plant..so is the acacia..i think the perspective of where the teachings come from needs to be balanced..

Well, when you are combining the Acacia and Ayahuasca they work together to bring the teachings. That is the beauty of it. However, Ayahuasca can predominate in its teachings, unless you use Rue which seems to really bring out the Acacia much more.

look at what happened to peyote after increased interest in the 60s..
not many if any old cactus left in the wild..

I have friends who were Mexico recently and apparently the local indigenous people there know where there is plenty of Peyote, which they also harvest. These are regarded as the mother plants and have a special wisdom. The thing about these Peyotes is that you can pick buttons and the overall cactus remains.

Also, there is HEAPS of Peyote being grown by the Native American church for example, because they really understand its value.

Talking to people, I suspect we are getting to the point where people are REALLY understanding they need to grow these trees, and more and more people are asking me for seeds and where they can get seeds of certain species.

 

[nen888]

^..fortunately the need to grow peyote was recognised in the 70s..the only peyote i've ever known was grown..

acacias, unfortunately, once more than a certain amount of material is taken tend to become weak/die back..
i think individuals and their work are not a problem..it is anything on a larger scale..
there are areas in nsw where every mature adult tree (of certain species) are in trouble or gone..
large acacias can be 100-200 years old or more..

yeah, I can see that element there in the ayahuasca scene, where perhaps the Acacia is not truly seen for itself, for its own teachings and wisdom and is advertised to be the rinky dink South American deal, when actually it is a unique and special brew.

..yes, this is what i meant..some people are cashing in on the south american interest (which is a valid interest) with substitutions..and do not have long histories of working with the acacia..

..the strongest actual phyllodes i've ever known were from seed-grown plants, 3-4 years old..
.

 

[Seldom]

for the kiddies playing along at home, it's wise to keep the following in mind:

if you have no experience in plant taxonomy, 'id'ing a tree and boiling up some phyllodes to drink with an MAOI, estimating dosage from what you've read online, you will probably end up getting hurt. Brews are not entry level enthnobotany. the acacia genus is a pharmacopea unto itself, new compounds are still being discovered such as the spermadine type alkaloid 'acacine' found only recently .. the safety of phenethylamines and MAOIs is not fully understood either.

nen888, chocobeastie and others who have managed to construct a full house worth of info, the chorus of this song has a message for you ..

 

[acacian]

haha.. love it! :lol:

 

[LowHP]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I post a bit over at Shroomery, too, but my interests have started to move on to DMT a bit more now.

Just adding that I attempted an STB extraction using lye and shellite on Acacia longifolia var. sophorae, which I believe is synonymous with Acacia sophorae now. I used 100g of bark from a branch. It was my first extraction but I am almost certain I did everything correctly, but freeze precipitation in a -25c freezer only created some tiny floating specks that dissolved as soon as they left the shellite; I'm guessing this was ice that somehow got in. The shellite did go cloudy when I tried evaping the second pull, but on complete evaporation there was nothing but a tiny, tiny, tinyyyyy film of clear sludge at the bottom of my jar which could've been anything. Not enough to bioassay, anyway. I am attempting one final pull on the bark and I have added a lot more lye to my base. I will also try heating it up and agitating more vigorously.

I will be attempting another STB extraction on A. cyclops in the near future and will update with results; any advice is welcome! If cyclops fails me I'll find a way to drive 3-4 hours out of Adelaide and respectfully harvest some burkitti bark.

edit: and I must add, nen, this thread is absolutely invaluable! I have spent hours and hours reading through it all and I am amazed at the effort you have put into it. We are all in your debt

edit2: nearly forgot, I've also done an extraction on 70g of A. ligulata bark. That was my first ever extraction and I used it as practice for the A. sophorae, but I did everything exactly the same except I didn't heat the solution at all, and I only did 1 pull. Nothing precipitated after 6 hours in the freezer so I evap'd it down and nothing at all was left. I definitely didn't expect it to be active, but can anyone tell me if STB teks are unsuitable for acacias? I've read that most people do a/b on them, but I'm not sure what difference it would make, especially with well ground bark? Do the cell walls hold the goods in a different way for acacias, or...?

Also I've just started an extraction on 30g of A. sophorae phyllodes that I got when I got the bark, will update with results if there's any (doubtful).

 

[cave paintings]

Was walking around outside today and came across an A.constricta I know. I will post some pictures to confirm identity soon. Anyhow, remembering talk of active flowers, this beauty was in full bloom, and I felt a call, so I picked up about 30-50 of the yellow flowers, went home, boiled some water and made a tea of the flowers. Tea was yellow, smelled good, tasted pretty good too! Notice slight effects almost immediately, stimulant-ish mainly, heart picks up a little, body tension-energy, but it feels good. Slightly euphoric/perk up. Mild head pressure. Moment or two of zoning out with sort of wave sensations. More towards jittery than sedative though. Forsure activity though. Effects still lasting.. been about 30 minutes.

Anyhow, not very useful in terms of tryptamine indication or analysis.. but a data-point nonetheless. The effects point towards N-methylphenethylamine as culprit, though I suppose my knowledge of it's presence does bias my interpretation. Risky work this bioassay stuff, Id be careful drinking anything much more concentrated than what I did drink for fear of raising heart-rate too much. Really gotta listen to your body and intuition carefully. Wish I could do some extractions.. but alas current situations do not permit.

 

[nen888]

..welcome LowHP..good to hear from you, and thanks for your comments and the reports..be interesting to hear how your sophorae phyllode test goes..it can be area and/or seasonally variable..often worth trying a different time of year if getting a negligible..

and cave paintings..hi again and thanks for that very interesting and pioneering report..!
..yeah, the effects suggests phenethylamines, although i don't think the actual flowers have been tested..so your report is particularly pioneering in reporting what may well be these alkaloids in the flowers of A. constricta..
.