Trying to improve Acacia information

[Kyle109]

I will be attempting another STB extraction on A. cyclops in the near future and will update with results; any advice is welcome! If cyclops fails me I'll find a way to drive 3-4 hours out of Adelaide and respectfully harvest some burkitti bark.

edit: and I must add, nen, this thread is absolutely invaluable! I have spent hours and hours reading through it all and I am amazed at the effort you have put into it. We are all in your debt

Super keen to hear about those results we have alot of A.cyclops in Africa and its considered a pest plant so going and organising a truck load of bark for free is normal.

Ive heard many people whisper about the powers of A.cyclops but never seen any solid results so very keen to hear about yours!:thumb_up:

Also thanks to nen888 this is a great thread and i notice the africa list needs updating:wink: will hopefully be able to help update it in the near future.

 

[kiang]

I promised I would report back on some experimentation on acacia extractions using the Hippie Salad Oil tek.

So what I have are some new pictures of acacias with dubious identification. And as suggested before by acacian and nen888, the first picture I might say is A. Retinodes.

The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th might be A. Melanoxylon.

The 6th picture is a closeup of a leaf of A. Retinodes.

 

[kiang]

This set of pictures:
Bear in mind that I'm just now learning how to extract and in no way do I know what I'm doing or what I am extracting and I'm not experienced in smoking\vapeing DMT.

the 1st one is crystal formation after slowly evaping ethanol (A. Melanoxylon).

the 2nd are the leftovers from the ethanol wash.

This was a suprise, the 3rd are crystals from an tea extract of Salix Alba I did 2 years ago, that I now extracted with the Hippie Salad Oil method just as I did with the acacia phyllods, just to hope I would get something different, hopefully salicylic acid.

4th picture is from left to right (note that I don't have a scale to measure 0.01g, just 0.1g minimum):
- 0.3g from 37g half dry A. Retinodes phyllodes (0.8% yield)
- 0.3g from 50g half dry A. Longifolia phyllodes (0.6% yield)
- 0.5g from 40g half dry A. Melanoxylon (1.3% yield)
- less than 0.1g from tea extract, don't remember the amount

Now some explanation. I did my first extractions ever 1 month ago from the same Acacias, but the amount were around 10g from each tree. I smoked the results alone, as changa, with all the precautions, the flame not touching the spice, etc.. but got nothing. So I needed more experimentation.

All the phyllodes were crushed with the blender. I had no problem extracting A. Longifolia and A. Retinodes but with A. Melanoxylon the oil wouldn't separate from the defatting layer (H2O + sodium carbonate) so I put the pan on the oven to heat it, and I think it helped to extract whatever it extracted..

I learned also that when I let the crystals form without additional heat, that the smell is more intense, than heating it to accelerate the ethanol evap. Is it possible that DMT gets destroyed even if just heated slightly on the oven?

All 3 acacia extracts smell the same, so I thought I would extract something different, and I came with the Salix Alba concentrated tea. I thought it would be possible to extract salicylic acid. So the last extaction (S. Alba) smells like burned socks, quite different from what I think might be DMT. Tastes different too.. so now I'm quite happy with the experimentation and I want to thank all of you for sharing information. Have to work on my smoking\vapeing technique to see if it is the real thing.. perhaps drinking it with some orange juice and Peganum Harmala.. will see

 

[nen888]

..kyle109 wrote:

this is a great thread and i notice the africa list needs updating will hopefully be able to help update it in the near future.

..hi there in africa, and great observation..look forward to updates.. and thanks..

kiang..solid and important euro-experimentation you are doing..still reading detail..thank you..

for the kiddies playing along at home, it's wise to keep the following in mind:

if you have no experience in plant taxonomy, 'id'ing a tree and boiling up some phyllodes to drink with an MAOI, estimating dosage from what you've read online, you will probably end up getting hurt. Brews are not entry level enthnobotany. the acacia genus is a pharmacopea unto itself, new compounds are still being discovered such as the spermadine type alkaloid 'acacine' found only recently .. the safety of phenethylamines and MAOIs is not fully understood either.

nen888, chocobeastie and others who have managed to construct a full house worth of info, the chorus of this song has a message for you ..

..Seldom, i absolutely agree..

i have advised the unfamiliar to avoid drinking any acacia phyllode..

in the name of information i decided to 'call' a section of the community who are already doing this with little experience..and, from experience, i can say that drinking entheogenic acacias requires practice, knowledge, and is not simply substitutable for some kind of south american experience..

IT IS DANGEROUS TO DRINK ANY UNKNOWN PLANT, especially with MAOIs
the researcher should be aware that they are taking an inherent risk and balance these factors wisely..
but apart from the unknown toxicities of spermidines, and quinolines and many other alkaloids, there are non-alkaloidal possible toxins..a handful of acacias may be relatively safe,
however..
at least 1 person has already died in Australia after drinking an acacia based brew, as reported earlier in the thread, due to physical accident in unsafe state..
vaporisation is the safest method to experiment with these plants..

i will again point readers to look up Safety & Risks in the thread Index..as well as Ethics..

i made the decision to 'out' what a worryingly commercial, and i would say exploitive small section of the community are doing..it can lead to a lot of damage..i would rather warn before things get worse than remain mute on what is brought to my attention..

acacia research i have frequently described as highly unknown and full of risk
i put my trust in the intelligence of the reader, and would be the first often to say that that the ingestion of plant teachers, shamanically or casually, is a dangerous path for many if not most..this thread began to try and educate before things got out of hand..i saw much lack of respect or reliable information..this thread is meant to be harm reduction..heart style..

i thank you for your comments Seldom..

 

[nen888]

..to add to that, again..

know thy tree..


kiang wrote:

the 1st one is crystal formation after slowly evaping ethanol (A. Melanoxylon).

..awesome..!

and want to thank cave paintings again for the courageous flower experiment..i think we can see an informed and aware approach to experimentation here..

 

[nen888]

..and kyle109..i only have TLC experience with A. cyclops (was tryptamine +ve) ..it grows nowhere near me..
but the first result from PrimalWisdom in South Africa was very encouraging..may seasonally vary..

below, Acacia cyclops flower and pod..

 

[shanedudddy2]

I have tried local cyclops a few times myself, and been unsuccessful in all but one attempt.
That one time was a very low yield, (not weigh able, since goo), but definitely noticed tryptamine effects (didn`t subjectively feel like DMT though).
I remember talking to another on Nexus Chat with similar experiences (he reported no results).
Would be good to hear of further reports. Perhaps it's active in South Africa, and not active in Australian populations. *shrug*
Is there any way we can start to move this Acacia info into a wiki of sorts?
I imagine it would be far easier to manage and access the information, and would allow users to add their results to a particular species page. Just a thought.

 

[shanedudddy2]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I post a bit over at Shroomery, too, but my interests have started to move on to DMT a bit more now.

Just adding that I attempted an STB extraction using lye and shellite on Acacia longifolia var. sophorae, which I believe is synonymous with Acacia sophorae now. I used 100g of bark from a branch. It was my first extraction but I am almost certain I did everything correctly, but freeze precipitation in a -25c freezer only created some tiny floating specks that dissolved as soon as they left the shellite; I'm guessing this was ice that somehow got in. The shellite did go cloudy when I tried evaping the second pull, but on complete evaporation there was nothing but a tiny, tiny, tinyyyyy film of clear sludge at the bottom of my jar which could've been anything. Not enough to bioassay, anyway. I am attempting one final pull on the bark and I have added a lot more lye to my base. I will also try heating it up and agitating more vigorously.

I will be attempting another STB extraction on A. cyclops in the near future and will update with results; any advice is welcome! If cyclops fails me I'll find a way to drive 3-4 hours out of Adelaide and respectfully harvest some burkitti bark.

edit: and I must add, nen, this thread is absolutely invaluable! I have spent hours and hours reading through it all and I am amazed at the effort you have put into it. We are all in your debt

edit2: nearly forgot, I've also done an extraction on 70g of A. ligulata bark. That was my first ever extraction and I used it as practice for the A. sophorae, but I did everything exactly the same except I didn't heat the solution at all, and I only did 1 pull. Nothing precipitated after 6 hours in the freezer so I evap'd it down and nothing at all was left. I definitely didn't expect it to be active, but can anyone tell me if STB teks are unsuitable for acacias? I've read that most people do a/b on them, but I'm not sure what difference it would make, especially with well ground bark? Do the cell walls hold the goods in a different way for acacias, or...?

Also I've just started an extraction on 30g of A. sophorae phyllodes that I got when I got the bark, will update with results if there's any (doubtful).

I presume you live in South Australia.
I have tried countless local plants, some a number of times.
The only reliable species would be burkittii (or so I imagine from reports).
I have taken the trip out and been duped by many look-a-like tree's..
I am not an experienced botanist, and to me, the pictures on the net and descriptions looked identical to many of the tree species I picked. [I made a thread about my experiences a month back]
Unless you are very experienced at Identification, I would recommend you wait until they flower, which is what I plant to do. *shakes fist at clock*

 

[nen888]

^..A. cyclops is actually not widely common everywhere in South Australia..less common than A. burkittii (A. acuminata) ..cyclops is a lot more common in W.A., where the tlc was done..

 

[LowHP]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I post a bit over at Shroomery, too, but my interests have started to move on to DMT a bit more now.

Just adding that I attempted an STB extraction using lye and shellite on Acacia longifolia var. sophorae, which I believe is synonymous with Acacia sophorae now. I used 100g of bark from a branch. It was my first extraction but I am almost certain I did everything correctly, but freeze precipitation in a -25c freezer only created some tiny floating specks that dissolved as soon as they left the shellite; I'm guessing this was ice that somehow got in. The shellite did go cloudy when I tried evaping the second pull, but on complete evaporation there was nothing but a tiny, tiny, tinyyyyy film of clear sludge at the bottom of my jar which could've been anything. Not enough to bioassay, anyway. I am attempting one final pull on the bark and I have added a lot more lye to my base. I will also try heating it up and agitating more vigorously.

I will be attempting another STB extraction on A. cyclops in the near future and will update with results; any advice is welcome! If cyclops fails me I'll find a way to drive 3-4 hours out of Adelaide and respectfully harvest some burkitti bark.

edit: and I must add, nen, this thread is absolutely invaluable! I have spent hours and hours reading through it all and I am amazed at the effort you have put into it. We are all in your debt

edit2: nearly forgot, I've also done an extraction on 70g of A. ligulata bark. That was my first ever extraction and I used it as practice for the A. sophorae, but I did everything exactly the same except I didn't heat the solution at all, and I only did 1 pull. Nothing precipitated after 6 hours in the freezer so I evap'd it down and nothing at all was left. I definitely didn't expect it to be active, but can anyone tell me if STB teks are unsuitable for acacias? I've read that most people do a/b on them, but I'm not sure what difference it would make, especially with well ground bark? Do the cell walls hold the goods in a different way for acacias, or...?

Also I've just started an extraction on 30g of A. sophorae phyllodes that I got when I got the bark, will update with results if there's any (doubtful).

I presume you live in South Australia.
I have tried countless local plants, some a number of times.
The only reliable species would be burkittii (or so I imagine from reports).
I have taken the trip out and been duped by many look-a-like tree's..
I am not an experienced botanist, and to me, the pictures on the net and descriptions looked identical to many of the tree species I picked. [I made a thread about my experiences a month back]
Unless you are very experienced at Identification, I would recommend you wait until they flower, which is what I plant to do. *shakes fist at clock*

Indeed, and I've read of your attempts with local plants. Very demotivating, seems we live in the worst state for this line of work. When you did your extractions on cyclops, did you use STB or A/B? And have you ever worked with A. pycnantha? I have heard it is active in some way, but it's unknown if it's dmt or not.

As for the burkitti, I agree that waiting for flowering would be best, but I plan to attempt extractions from it's bark harvested during winter and summer. I'm actually surprisingly good with ID so hopefully that isn't a problem. My mates and I will probably take the van there and make it a 2 day event, with plenty of mind-expanding entertainment to keep us company.

Kyle109, I'll let you know how it goes! I won't be attempting it until this weekend at the very earliest, because the trees themselves are pretty far from where I live and I'm running out of bus money. :lol:

 

[Kyle109]

Kyle109, I'll let you know how it goes! I won't be attempting it until this weekend at the very earliest, because the trees themselves are pretty far from where I live and I'm running out of bus money. :lol:

As I said im keen to hear it as Ive heard many rumours of Cyclops being active but as nen said maybe has to do with the seasons or even phenotypes not sure. Maybe we have a different phenotype here. Ill def be trying it out in the future tho.

I noticed that the list for Africa is far shorter then it should be as we have loads of native acacias not on the lists and as far as I know untested.

 

[cave paintings]

Hey guys! So yes, the tree I sampled was A.constricta, I found I had already gotten it identified almost exactly a year ago. I'd also like to note that the effects lasted probably about an hour longer, with some marijuana coaxing out some faint visuals along pavement later. The visuals were my eastern patterns I normally associate with san pedro. Interesting, I plan to further experiment (judiciously and carefully ofcourse!). I certainly agree with your note on safety and intelligence nen! These plants, and ourselves are to be treated with the utmost respect and attention. A utilization of the empirical knowledge we can derive from experiments and analysis, keen observation and understanding of the plant, and an attentive ear to our own bodies are all key to a safe, responsible, and respectful exploration of this vista.

On a side note, I will be going down to Belize in almost 10 days, for a couple months! I'd like to meet A.cornigera! Though not disturb it for fear of it's guardians!

Be well all
.. the paintings on the cave

 

[nen888]

^..cave paintings wrote:

So yes, the tree I sampled was A.constricta, I found I had already gotten it identified almost exactly a year ago. I'd also like to note that the effects lasted probably about an hour longer, with some marijuana coaxing out some faint visuals along pavement later. The visuals were my eastern patterns I normally associate with san pedro. Interesting, I plan to further experiment (judiciously and carefully ofcourse!).

..sounds like it may be a tryptamine/phenethylamine combination..already demonstrated in some acacias..
...................


..kiang wrote:

4th picture is from left to right (note that I don't have a scale to measure 0.01g, just 0.1g minimum):
- 0.3g from 37g half dry A. Retinodes phyllodes (0.8% yield)
- 0.3g from 50g half dry A. Longifolia phyllodes (0.6% yield)
- 0.5g from 40g half dry A. Melanoxylon (1.3% yield)
- less than 0.1g from tea extract, don't remember the amount

..these are very significant results, depending on what the alkaloids are..particularly the A. melanoxylon yield..

Now some explanation. I did my first extractions ever 1 month ago from the same Acacias, but the amount were around 10g from each tree. I smoked the results alone, as changa, with all the precautions, the flame not touching the spice, etc.. but got nothing. So I needed more experimentation.

..i would suggest a glass pipe or vaporiser to first test possible tryptamines..it means there are no other factors (as in 'changa' ) ..also, less than 10mg dmt can, in many people, have little or no effect..5meo-dmt, on the other hand, would be very noticeable at 10mg..nmt would require more than 40-50mg to really notice effects (on its own)

All the phyllodes were crushed with the blender. I had no problem extracting A. Longifolia and A. Retinodes but with A. Melanoxylon the oil wouldn't separate from the defatting layer (H2O + sodium carbonate) so I put the pan on the oven to heat it, and I think it helped to extract whatever it extracted..

I learned also that when I let the crystals form without additional heat, that the smell is more intense, than heating it to accelerate the ethanol evap. Is it possible that DMT gets destroyed even if just heated slightly on the oven?

..above 50-60degrees C would vaporise the dmt (if freebase)..slight heating may partially oxidise it, but shouldn't destroy the majority of it..raising or lowering the the pH can help in separations..

All 3 acacia extracts smell the same, so I thought I would extract something different, and I came with the Salix Alba concentrated tea. I thought it would be possible to extract salicylic acid. So the last extaction (S. Alba) smells like burned socks, quite different from what I think might be DMT. Tastes different too.. so now I'm quite happy with the experimentation and I want to thank all of you for sharing information. Have to work on my smoking\vapeing technique to see if it is the real thing.. perhaps drinking it with some orange juice and Peganum Harmala.. will see

..this sounds like you have dmt (or at least tryptamines) from each acacia..for a first experiment i would recommend smoking of the extract..if there happened to be 5meo or PEAs, ingesting with MAOIs could be intense..it would be good to have some extract from a confirmed dmt plant as a control..

thank you for this work kiang..very encouraging..
viva acacias in europe !

 

[nen888]

shanedudddy2 wrote:

Is there any way we can start to move this Acacia info into a wiki of sorts?
I imagine it would be far easier to manage and access the information, and would allow users to add their results to a particular species page. Just a thought.

..this would be good..i've been overwhelmed lately by the need to balance financial survival (which has never come from my work with plants) vs. organising this information..i've still got to update the thread Index..so good suggestion, bare with me..!

 

[kiang]

..i would suggest a glass pipe or vaporiser to first test possible tryptamines..it means there are no other factors (as in 'changa' ) ..also, less than 10mg dmt can, in many people, have little or no effect..5meo-dmt, on the other hand, would be very noticeable at 10mg..nmt would require more than 40-50mg to really notice effects (on its own)

Yes that's what I thought would be the best way to bioassay.

..above 50-60degrees C would vaporise the dmt (if freebase)..slight heating may partially oxidise it, but shouldn't destroy the majority of it..raising or lowering the the pH can help in separations..

That is definitly a thing to consider next time I'm doing extractions. It is possible that I might lost some DMT (or whatever it is I extracted).

..this sounds like you have dmt (or at least tryptamines) from each acacia..for a first experiment i would recommend smoking of the extract..if there happened to be 5meo or PEAs, ingesting with MAOIs could be intense..it would be good to have some extract from a confirmed dmt plant as a control..

I did a control and it was a extraction done on MHRB, the smell is the same. I'm almost certain I have DMT extracted from the acacias, but certainly not the yield I reported, because I suspect that it has some Sodium Carbonate in the final amount..

nen888, I hope you resolve your financial troubles.. thank you for all you do!

 

[nen888]

^..it's ok..with spirit, the plants (& the nexus) i am wealthy..!

actually, i probably used over-dramatic language back there..it's simply that my various careers take up a lot of time and energy at the moment..and i think i've had one work meeting too many!
without going too far into what the person who is Nen does, a lot of my time in the past year has gone into investing in programmes to help indigenous people..and i also have creative projects (alluded to by phyllode in the past) to complete..

at the core, i have chosen to keep my work with plant teachers 'pure'..
no financial involvement..i do the work for spirit..
there is a power in that..one which i wouldn't sell for any amount..
.

 

[nen888]

..so, cave paintings Acacia constricta flower experiment is really quite exciting, and has gotten me pondering..

particularly the described similarity to San Pedro visions..
for a tryptamine/simple PEA combination to be visually active would presumably require some kind of MAOI..we do know of flavonoids in acacia flowers, as well as harmalas in phyllodes..but, could there be a more active cactus alkaloid in there? certainly the controversial claims of mescaline from A. berlandieri and A. rigidula have not been followed up for verification..

fascinating stuff cave paintings, given also the evidence of native american ritual use of acacia flower presented earlier..

..a closely related species which could be mistaken for A. constricta, with similar distribution, and reaching into Mexico is
Acacia neovernicosa (named as a species in 1969) ..synonymous with Vachellia vernicosa
from Flavonoids from the exudate of Acacia neovernicosa ,Eckhard Wollenweber, David S. Seigler 1982:

2′,4′-Dihydroxychalcone, 4′-hydroxy-2′-methoxychalcone and 2′,4′-dihydroxy-3′-methoxychalcone were isolated and characterized from the resinous exudate produced by Acacia neovernicosa. Smaller amounts of isoliquiritigenin, pinocembrin and chrysin were also found and identified by their chromatographic properties and UV spectra. The material of one collection contained galangin, 3-methylkaempferol and 3,3′ -dimethylquercetin.

..chrysin is an maoi, known from Passiflora caerulea..

below are pictured, firstly 2 of Acacia neovernicosa flower and habit (in Sierra Gorda, Mexico);
and then Acacia constricta, flowers, habit, pods and US distribution..

 

[nen888]

ps..my quote of the week..

cave paintings:

These plants, and ourselves are to be treated with the utmost respect and attention. A utilization of the empirical knowledge we can derive from experiments and analysis, keen observation and understanding of the plant, and an attentive ear to our own bodies are all key to a safe, responsible, and respectful exploration of this vista.

well said..
.

 

[cave paintings]

Very interesting and exciting! Thanks again for all the research you do nen! As for the identities, here are some pictures. The first two of suspected A.constricta and another of a nearby (but not directly adjacent) suspected A.farnesiana (of which I have also gathered some seeds to grow!). As for the constrica, I now question whether it is because of the size of this specimen - a tree really - and I now realize A.constricta grows more shrubbishly. The picture I took in the acacia-ID thread did not show its size. There weren't any pods I could find. Perhaps it is farnesiana, as it can grow up to 8 meters. This might also fit in with the tryptamine/phen effects noted as it contains 5-meo-dmt, though I suppose oral activity would have to be potentiated by an MAOI?
Also, I'd like to note that I am outside A.constricta's native range and these acacias aren't found growing natively, though they are certainly happy enough with the climate here I'm sure. The A.greggii pictures posted previously were of them in their native habitat, not a far drive.

 

[nen888]

^..pods would really help conclude ID..also a close-up of the pinnae..it does look like constricta to me, which can reach tree size, though is usually a shrub as you say cave paintings..if the pods are constricted between seeds, then it's constricta, hence the name..
the other candidate (though far less common in the US) is Acacia tortuosa (which yatiqiri pulled entheogenic unknown alkaloids from in Bolivia)
..the bottom photo i think may not be A. farnesiana, depending on how the pods mature, it could be Acacia schaffneri..(see attached photo)
all these american Acacias have been placed in Vachellia recently..

as for oral activity, while you're mentioning 5meo-dmt, it does have some oral activity..

so, for further ID help, below are
1) Acacia farnesiana pod (still ripening, is dark brown/black when mature)
2) Acacia tortuosa pod
3) Acacia schaffneri pods (ripe)