westernspice
Rising Star
Sorry one for question, if you were to cultivate one species in the southern states which would it be? From reading the entire thread, acuminata seems the flavor of the month.
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Trying to improve Acacia information
- Thread starter nen888
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..welcome westernspice and thanks for your comments..regarding 5meo in A. mearnsii, this was from a single source i have not heard from in years, and was then rumored from a few places..chocobeastie, however, confirmed last year obtaining 1.2% alkaloid, probably mainly DMT, from the species..i can confirm that material from victoria is tryptamine positive, but don't have % or qualitative information yet..
you wrote:
..last, i don't mind ID'ing in the thread, but would prefer pics not too hi-res, and that the person posting has at least done a little checking themselves (so that the plant is probably actually an acacia)
i've tried to put a fair amount of info to get people a step of the way towards acacia ID..
.
ps. thanks also wira..has that spermadine alkaloid structure shown up yet BTW..? 8)
you wrote:
..if i had to pick just one, then yes, probably acuminata for outright percentage..though floribunda also totally rocks and grows a bit faster, and mucronata is a lesser known (& more variable) southern favorite of mine..
..last, i don't mind ID'ing in the thread, but would prefer pics not too hi-res, and that the person posting has at least done a little checking themselves (so that the plant is probably actually an acacia)
i've tried to put a fair amount of info to get people a step of the way towards acacia ID..
.
ps. thanks also wira..has that spermadine alkaloid structure shown up yet BTW..? 8)
..spotted an acacia-loving creature i've been fond of over the years today on some 5-6 month year old seedlings (about 1-2 feet tall plants) ..the Acacia Horned Treehopper, a kind of Jassid..
..it is particularly fond (when given a choice) of acacias floribunda, maidenii and obtusifolia..usually a number of them attach to new-growth reddish twigs and start sucking sap..they do not appear to harm the trees other than perhaps an occasional phyllode yellowing..as in pic2, ants were also present..i will have to ask a friendly entomologist what the ant interaction is about..they are not subservient like aphids and fly away after a few weeks at will..perhaps they are exchanging sugars from the plant in exchange for the ants protection from other insects..?
the Acacia Horned Treehopper is common in the Brisbane area of Australia..
..it is particularly fond (when given a choice) of acacias floribunda, maidenii and obtusifolia..usually a number of them attach to new-growth reddish twigs and start sucking sap..they do not appear to harm the trees other than perhaps an occasional phyllode yellowing..as in pic2, ants were also present..i will have to ask a friendly entomologist what the ant interaction is about..they are not subservient like aphids and fly away after a few weeks at will..perhaps they are exchanging sugars from the plant in exchange for the ants protection from other insects..?
the Acacia Horned Treehopper is common in the Brisbane area of Australia..
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Seldom
Wiradjuri
some classy photos there
bahh..22 pages is too much to go through to get to single posts on p.12 or so with a slow connection
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...something meditative about repetitive activities and good music after a long day
not even sure this is an acacia, suspicion says probly it is, it's galled up pretty good, not looking at it as a source, just has sharp L shaped branches which would be good for a split and bore didj if the density is high enough
baileyana?
(+ have you ever seen a floribunda with phyllodes this long? 3 main veins, anastomoses identical to other strains of i've seen, no basal gland, possible hybrid with longissima?)
do you have any advice bout ho wto distinguish decurrens dealbata and meansii?
very interested to hear anything you have on dealbata
also one thing i've never heard about is alkaloids in the leaves of bipinnate species?
many thanks : )
bahh..22 pages is too much to go through to get to single posts on p.12 or so with a slow connection
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...something meditative about repetitive activities and good music after a long day
not even sure this is an acacia, suspicion says probly it is, it's galled up pretty good, not looking at it as a source, just has sharp L shaped branches which would be good for a split and bore didj if the density is high enough
baileyana?
(+ have you ever seen a floribunda with phyllodes this long? 3 main veins, anastomoses identical to other strains of i've seen, no basal gland, possible hybrid with longissima?)
do you have any advice bout ho wto distinguish decurrens dealbata and meansii?
very interested to hear anything you have on dealbata
also one thing i've never heard about is alkaloids in the leaves of bipinnate species?
many thanks : )
Spice Sailor
Rising Star
Greetings travellers of space and time, there have been a few posts of late about Acacia ID in southeast Queensland. This book has been of tremendous help to me. "Flora of south-eastern Queensland volume 1, authors Stanley and Ross." This piece of literature is highly regarded by myself and friends when trying to confirm a species within the huge genus that is Acacia. Particularly good as it is specific to south east qld and the districts within s.e.q.
It is an expensive book to buy, though is available in some public and university libraries. The book uses a lot of botanical language which can be confusing but it has a good glossary of terms. If you have trouble with a words meaning, please use the botanical terms relevant to acacias p17#323 of this thread (kindly made by Nen) or research yourself. (By the way nen nice shot of the Acacia Horned Treehopper. They are so tiny and awesome.)
Hopefully this can be of help to some and these types of identification books can be found for most areas of Australia. Big thanks to the Australian botanists of the last 50 years who have done this work purely for the research.
Spice Sailor
It is an expensive book to buy, though is available in some public and university libraries. The book uses a lot of botanical language which can be confusing but it has a good glossary of terms. If you have trouble with a words meaning, please use the botanical terms relevant to acacias p17#323 of this thread (kindly made by Nen) or research yourself. (By the way nen nice shot of the Acacia Horned Treehopper. They are so tiny and awesome.)
Hopefully this can be of help to some and these types of identification books can be found for most areas of Australia. Big thanks to the Australian botanists of the last 50 years who have done this work purely for the research.
Spice Sailor
..hi Spice Sailor and thank you for your very helpful post..
please note i have added a couple of terms (such as pruinose, see below) to the botanical terms list you mentioned..
also, i'm gradually making the linked refs in the index scroll directly to the relevant post (not just page),
like this: botanical terms here
..
..Seldom wrote:
..mearnsii the pinnae (leaflets) are finely hairy on the underside, top dark green, bark usually furrowed and almost black, flowers pale yellow, and inter-jugary glands (see attached pic), twigs densely hairy; decurrens the pinnae dark green and shiny, same colour both sides, maximum 13 pinnae per pair, flowers golden yellow and very numerous (lots per flower head), twigs have ribs; dealbata the pinnae are densely hairy beneath in pairs of 10-30, the pod is silghtly pruinose, meaning slightly flour-covered looking, & flattened, the flowers medium yellow very numerous..
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EDIT: 1 unreferenced report trace tryptamines in A. dealbata, no further info.; have made some corrections to above paragraph about bi-pinnate species..
below is A. mearnsii close-up showing jugary and inter-jugary glands (& hairyness)
& below that is Acacia cardiophylla, native to central and south-western NSW, Aus., and found by White [1951] to contain small amounts of presumed 'tryptamine' and phenethylamine in the leaves..
please note i have added a couple of terms (such as pruinose, see below) to the botanical terms list you mentioned..
also, i'm gradually making the linked refs in the index scroll directly to the relevant post (not just page),
like this: botanical terms here
..
..Seldom
wrote:
..thank you heaps seldom!!, i was thinking of such a 'page-hopper'..that's great!:d
..could be a Jacksonia, they are very interesting australian shrubs in Fabaceae, which like acacias have phyllodes not true compound leaves..they have yellow small pea-flowers in dense infloresences..no chemical info..
..yes, possibly hybidized with another bipinnate
..i have seen floribunda of this form with the long phyllodes..
..A. cardiophylla is an australian bipinnate species in which White found tryptamines and phenethylamines in the pinnae (small leaves)..it seems mearnsii does at the right times have tryptamines..at least a couple of african bipinnate species contain DMT in the leaves..there are about 40 bi-pinnate species (sect. Botrycephalae) in australia..the most common are the ones you mention..
..mearnsii the pinnae (leaflets) are finely hairy on the underside, top dark green, bark usually furrowed and almost black, flowers pale yellow, and inter-jugary glands (see attached pic), twigs densely hairy; decurrens the pinnae dark green and shiny, same colour both sides, maximum 13 pinnae per pair, flowers golden yellow and very numerous (lots per flower head), twigs have ribs; dealbata the pinnae are densely hairy beneath in pairs of 10-30, the pod is silghtly pruinose, meaning slightly flour-covered looking, & flattened, the flowers medium yellow very numerous..
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EDIT: 1 unreferenced report trace tryptamines in A. dealbata, no further info.; have made some corrections to above paragraph about bi-pinnate species..
below is A. mearnsii close-up showing jugary and inter-jugary glands (& hairyness)
& below that is Acacia cardiophylla, native to central and south-western NSW, Aus., and found by White [1951] to contain small amounts of presumed 'tryptamine' and phenethylamine in the leaves..
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If you look at the index in the first post you can see a page where african acacias are mentioned
hypnotoad
Rising Star
Hey guys! This is a kind of strange question, but is any of the african acacias DMT consentration high enough to be active if smoked?
The DMT levels in most acacias seem to be very low?
Will you be able to smoke or make a snuff somehow the acacia leaves or bark if the consentration is high enough?
Sorry if its a stupid question, I'm not very wise when it comes to this acacia topic!
Thanks!
The DMT levels in most acacias seem to be very low?
Will you be able to smoke or make a snuff somehow the acacia leaves or bark if the consentration is high enough?
Sorry if its a stupid question, I'm not very wise when it comes to this acacia topic!
Thanks!
..while on the African theme, thanks again to beautifulsorrow for mentioning A. nilotica..i have heard stories over the years about the Masai 'fever tree' acacia..i think a lot of pre-Christian african plant knowledge is on the edge of lost, especially in East Africa..
..hypnotoad, see next post for previous question
..a South African acacia on the p.3 African List is Acacia karroo (Sweet Thorn)
Native to large parts of southern Africa (South Africa, Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Namibia, Angola, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia and Zimbabwe)..very common in its native range and is probably southern Africa's most common tree.
..it has become naturalised in Australia, northern Africa (i.e. Libya and Morocco), southern Europe (i.e. Spain, Portugal, Corsica and Sicily), South America (i.e. Bolivia and Chile), Iraq and Mauritius..
..A. karroo has many documented traditional medicinal uses including treating heart disorder, dizziness & dysentery..
it is said by Niazi in the Pharmaceutical Excipients blog to contain tryptamines..
it is often confused with the very similar Acacia horrida (Cape Gum, 'Dev-Babul') , which is native to Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan, Kenya & Uganda..naturalized in India..it seems that the South African Acacia horrida var. transvaalensis (Burtt Davy) is synonymous with A. karroo..
A. horrida differs from karroo in pod shape, flower shape, and slightly greater number of flowers per inflorescence, often larger number of pinnae pairs, and more 'horrid' thorns!..there is 1 sub. sp. Acacia horrida ssp. benadirensis (Chiov.)Hillcoat & Brenanit..it is also claimed without reference to be psychoactive and contain tryptamines..
as they are both very common species they are suited to phytochemical research over a wide geographical range..
other african species like A. senegal, A. nubica, A. tortillis (also middle-east) & A. albida (north africa & middle-east) have more solid/confirmed reports of containing DMT..
below are 4 images of A. karroo, the fourth the seedpods;
then 2 of A. horrida..pods then flowers, to compare..
..hypnotoad, see next post for previous question
..a South African acacia on the p.3 African List is Acacia karroo (Sweet Thorn)
Native to large parts of southern Africa (South Africa, Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Namibia, Angola, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia and Zimbabwe)..very common in its native range and is probably southern Africa's most common tree.
..it has become naturalised in Australia, northern Africa (i.e. Libya and Morocco), southern Europe (i.e. Spain, Portugal, Corsica and Sicily), South America (i.e. Bolivia and Chile), Iraq and Mauritius..
..A. karroo has many documented traditional medicinal uses including treating heart disorder, dizziness & dysentery..
it is said by Niazi in the Pharmaceutical Excipients blog to contain tryptamines..
it is often confused with the very similar Acacia horrida (Cape Gum, 'Dev-Babul') , which is native to Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan, Kenya & Uganda..naturalized in India..it seems that the South African Acacia horrida var. transvaalensis (Burtt Davy) is synonymous with A. karroo..
A. horrida differs from karroo in pod shape, flower shape, and slightly greater number of flowers per inflorescence, often larger number of pinnae pairs, and more 'horrid' thorns!..there is 1 sub. sp. Acacia horrida ssp. benadirensis (Chiov.)Hillcoat & Brenanit..it is also claimed without reference to be psychoactive and contain tryptamines..
as they are both very common species they are suited to phytochemical research over a wide geographical range..
other african species like A. senegal, A. nubica, A. tortillis (also middle-east) & A. albida (north africa & middle-east) have more solid/confirmed reports of containing DMT..
below are 4 images of A. karroo, the fourth the seedpods;
then 2 of A. horrida..pods then flowers, to compare..
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..hypnotoad, welcome..regarding you question of dmt concentrations in acacias and methods etc..
..one of the core foundations of the nexus is the history of the past decade or so modern use of the south american and mexican Mimosa hostilis, using careful extraction methods, or in ayahuasca 'analogues'..it has a bark percentage of approx. 1.0-1.8%, so you could not directly 'smoke' or 'snuff' the material..some Acacias have percentages as high as M. hostilis, others much lower, others seasonally varying..
..i would recommend that you spend some time using the Nexus, and this sub thread, as an educational research tool..you will learn a lot about methodology, and the ongoing Research into the contents of these interesting plants..
..African acacias have only a handful of published chemical tests, but lots of clues and some interesting anecdotal reports..this thread and the Nexus-Wiki will fill in the gaps of what is known so far..
.
..one of the core foundations of the nexus is the history of the past decade or so modern use of the south american and mexican Mimosa hostilis, using careful extraction methods, or in ayahuasca 'analogues'..it has a bark percentage of approx. 1.0-1.8%, so you could not directly 'smoke' or 'snuff' the material..some Acacias have percentages as high as M. hostilis, others much lower, others seasonally varying..
..i would recommend that you spend some time using the Nexus, and this sub thread, as an educational research tool..you will learn a lot about methodology, and the ongoing Research into the contents of these interesting plants..
..African acacias have only a handful of published chemical tests, but lots of clues and some interesting anecdotal reports..this thread and the Nexus-Wiki will fill in the gaps of what is known so far..
.
nen888, why do you say the baileyana in that pic might be a hybrid? It looks like regular baileyana to me.
What is the plant under the baileyana - a Eucalyptus perhaps? Re: floribunda, I presume you're referring to the single phyllode in front of the baileyana sprig. I've also seen floribunda phyllodes that long, though most forms have shorter (and broader) phyllodes in most of their growth as you've probably noticed.
Re: distinguishing between dealbata, mearnsii and decurrens, I can offer a few other points.
If you know in advance that you're looking at one of these three it helps considerably to narrow it down from all the other bipinnate wattles. Acacia decurrens can be distinguished from the other two by its narrow leaflets - they are almost as thick as they are wide. The leaflets on dealbata and mearnsii are wide enough to touch the adjacent leaflets, or nearly so. A. dealbata can often be distinguished from a distance because of its silvery green appearance, but sometimes it does not have this (and sometimes mearnsii specimens do, to some extent). The best way to tell these two apart is the positioning of the rhachis glands - dealbata has one at the base of each pair of pinnae, and mearnsii has them irregularly along the length.
nen, I keep forgetting to scan that illustration of proposed structures for the alkaloid in myrtifolia. I'll get it to you eventually :thumb_up:
What is the plant under the baileyana - a Eucalyptus perhaps? Re: floribunda, I presume you're referring to the single phyllode in front of the baileyana sprig. I've also seen floribunda phyllodes that long, though most forms have shorter (and broader) phyllodes in most of their growth as you've probably noticed.
Re: distinguishing between dealbata, mearnsii and decurrens, I can offer a few other points.
If you know in advance that you're looking at one of these three it helps considerably to narrow it down from all the other bipinnate wattles. Acacia decurrens can be distinguished from the other two by its narrow leaflets - they are almost as thick as they are wide. The leaflets on dealbata and mearnsii are wide enough to touch the adjacent leaflets, or nearly so. A. dealbata can often be distinguished from a distance because of its silvery green appearance, but sometimes it does not have this (and sometimes mearnsii specimens do, to some extent). The best way to tell these two apart is the positioning of the rhachis glands - dealbata has one at the base of each pair of pinnae, and mearnsii has them irregularly along the length.
nen, I keep forgetting to scan that illustration of proposed structures for the alkaloid in myrtifolia. I'll get it to you eventually :thumb_up:
..yeah wira, the narrower pinnae on decurrens is a good distinguisher from mearnsii and dealbata..i have a feeling there are hybrids between mearnsii and dealbata, so examples like the Columbian specimen on p20 seem to have some intermediacy..thanks for the rachis glands pointer, have added rachis to botanical terms p17..
"The rachis is the midrib of a leaf. It is usually continuous with the petiole and is often raised above the lamina (the leaf blade)"..
..while seldom's picture may well be just ordinary baileyana, it's what appear to be the green pods (different shape) and the darker rather than silver foilage which caused me to suggest hybridization..i think there's a lot going on between australian bi-pinnates which make identification more confusing..
..the long-phyllode form of floribunda probably warrants subspecies status..
"The rachis is the midrib of a leaf. It is usually continuous with the petiole and is often raised above the lamina (the leaf blade)"..
..while seldom's picture may well be just ordinary baileyana, it's what appear to be the green pods (different shape) and the darker rather than silver foilage which caused me to suggest hybridization..i think there's a lot going on between australian bi-pinnates which make identification more confusing..
..the long-phyllode form of floribunda probably warrants subspecies status..
Seldom
Wiradjuri
interesting, much appreciated guys. there's alot of what i think are dealbata trees all around the roads here for soil erosion, trekking over some hills in a TSR though i've found a spot with some old grandfather trees that are a fraction different to the younger roadside ones, i'll have to make my way over again some time an dhave a closer look
i ended up going back to the place i found the long phyllode floribundas to find the huge mystery jacksonia tree (? again, who was kind enough to impart one of her arms for didj making http://oi40.tinypic.com/2q04u35.jpg
i ended up going back to the place i found the long phyllode floribundas to find the huge mystery jacksonia tree (? again, who was kind enough to impart one of her arms for didj making http://oi40.tinypic.com/2q04u35.jpg
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..here is a quick guide for newcomers to the thread
..essential reading is the INDEX on p1 linked here(also on p11)..
p3(use yellow links) which includes an African species list,
p5 incl. South American, Australian, Pacific Island & Asian species,
p9 which includes American acacias, and begins an ethics (of this thread) discussion continued on p.10, which has info about Testing Proceedures (Thin Layer Chromatagraphy etc), and growing..
and p17 incl. alkaloid screening lists, Botanical Terms & Acacias Naturalized in Europe..
many species are identified throughout, please check carefully before posting ID requests..
this thread was intended to focus on research into the alkaloids of acacias (worldwide), particularly research carried out safely and ethically/consciously by nexians..what is most encouraged is new, solid information to further the collective understanding of this multi-use genus..
.
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back to the thread..
..^ cool seldom, (see previous post)
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..another australian species which may have oral activity, but is of very restricted range, is Acacia obtecta..it is confined to one region of south-central Western Australia..seeds are available from a few places..i have noticed it mentioned on another site..it was reported by 'J.J.' at the EGA conferences 2009 and 2011 to contain c.0.2% alkaloids phyllodes: 13 or so alkaloids, including DMT, the majority being beta-carbolines..
[thanks wira for access to your 2009 notes]..there are no known bioassays..
..this tree needs some experienced growers to propagate it for future research..
.
the oral activity of Acacia nilotica (by the Masai in Kenya, see p21) and the claim of 'harmane derivatives' and tryptamine by Oliver-Bever 1988 makes it an interesting one to study..it's very common (Gum Arabic tree)
below, the fairly rare A. obtecta..
i will update and expand the Australian Tryptamine & Psychoactive Acacia list on p.5 here in the near future..
..here is a quick guide for newcomers to the thread
..essential reading is the INDEX on p1 linked here(also on p11)..
p3(use yellow links) which includes an African species list,
p5 incl. South American, Australian, Pacific Island & Asian species,
p9 which includes American acacias, and begins an ethics (of this thread) discussion continued on p.10, which has info about Testing Proceedures (Thin Layer Chromatagraphy etc), and growing..
and p17 incl. alkaloid screening lists, Botanical Terms & Acacias Naturalized in Europe..
many species are identified throughout, please check carefully before posting ID requests..
this thread was intended to focus on research into the alkaloids of acacias (worldwide), particularly research carried out safely and ethically/consciously by nexians..what is most encouraged is new, solid information to further the collective understanding of this multi-use genus..
.
.........................................................................................................................................................................
back to the thread..
..^ cool seldom
, (see previous post)...........................................................
..another australian species which may have oral activity, but is of very restricted range, is Acacia obtecta..it is confined to one region of south-central Western Australia..seeds are available from a few places..i have noticed it mentioned on another site..it was reported by 'J.J.' at the EGA conferences 2009 and 2011 to contain c.0.2% alkaloids phyllodes: 13 or so alkaloids, including DMT, the majority being beta-carbolines..
[thanks wira for access to your 2009 notes]..there are no known bioassays..
..this tree needs some experienced growers to propagate it for future research..
.
the oral activity of Acacia nilotica (by the Masai in Kenya, see p21) and the claim of 'harmane derivatives' and tryptamine by Oliver-Bever 1988 makes it an interesting one to study..it's very common (Gum Arabic tree)
below, the fairly rare A. obtecta..
i will update and expand the Australian Tryptamine & Psychoactive Acacia list on p.5 here in the near future..
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^..only that it varied in content between sampled plants in northern W.A., some containing reasonable amounts of DMT in (if i recall) phyllodes, identified by TLC by 'J.J' [EGA 2011]..bark not tested..
Acacia multisilliqua[pics below] is Australian native to Kimberley, W.A., and Arnhem Land, N.T., including offshore islands, and also parts of northern QLD..it is closely related to Acacia complanata (tetrahydroharman, see here here]..
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A. multisilliqua, the phyllodes are smallish c.3-4cm long x 0.8mm wide..
Acacia multisilliqua[pics below] is Australian native to Kimberley, W.A., and Arnhem Land, N.T., including offshore islands, and also parts of northern QLD..it is closely related to Acacia complanata (tetrahydroharman, see here here]..
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A. multisilliqua, the phyllodes are smallish c.3-4cm long x 0.8mm wide..
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..yes seldom, that does seem to be Acacia cultriformis (found mainly in NSW)..it's definately worth investigation..all of White's 1940s-50s findings of simple tryptamine in acacias have turned out to be DMT (except maybe A. Podalyriifolia, but this is still open, see Growpen's thread Doseage Issues - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus) ..as far as Appleseed's TLC report, i think it is more likely to contain DMT, rather than 5meo, based on TLC vs GCMS results for most acacias..as for A. baileyana, there have been anecdotal stories for years of people getting reasonable yields of DMT out of it..must get around to investigating it myself..so many species to look at!
..
..