Trying to improve Acacia information

[Gowpen]

Acacias are a great puzzle to figure out. A life long hobby for sure... May I ask about your intersts in Acacias and how the Nexus gained yourself ?
What an asset you are..... I gather you are in the UK (where I hail from, southampton)
regards..:thumb_up:

 

[nen888]

..thanks for your enthusiasm and interest Growpen ,
i got pissed off at the internet around 2000, and stayed away for a decade..when i returned i checked out all available tryptamine sites and concluded that this was by far the best, and that there was a lack of credible information on acacias..
i feel like acacias found me, about 20 years ago, but that's a long story for another time...
and i'm actually a bit of well kept secret from downunder..
don't tell anyone..!
.

 

[Gowpen]

 

[nen888]

..so i went on a walk in (otherwise) undisturbed bushland about an hour or two from a large city in australia, and was disturbed to find that the hideous bark-strippers (tree killers) have been at it in the past year or so!
i'm posting a couple of images, only had a crap phone on me..a six year old who was on the bush walk was very disturbed also, and tried to stick leaves on to help them..
..unfortunately, once this amount of bark is taken the tree starts to lose leaves and dies..around 30-40 of the largest A. obtusifolia in this spot (each around 25-100 years old!) had died or were close to it due to bark stripping..
..so i put out to the world again (besides a call for growing them now):
THE SMALL TWIGS (of acuminata, obtusifolia, and others) HAVE AS MUCH ALKALOID AS THE TRUNK BARK..
& phyllodes (leaves) have almost as much, particularly acuminata..
..taking bark in this way dramatically decreases this natural wonder in it's rightful place..only the greedy or total uncaring of the environment could do this..:x

 

[nen888]

..i feel like setting up a vigilante team to have a word or two to these tree killers..
but i also feel spirit (and plant spirits) will eventually deal with them, sternly..

 

[acacian]

Wow thats disgusting the way the obtusifolias are being treated.. I find it especially odd such a thing happening with a substance like DMT, which is capable and renowned of connecting people to nature in such profound and intimate ways... I like to think as you said, that these people will get their spiritual comeuppance. Its disturbing the huge number of trees being ringbarked though and in such concentrated areas. This definitely suggests profit as a motivation.

On another note nen, I have about 20 phlebophylla seeds at the moment and im keen as mustard on getting a few plants going.. I was wondering what your thoughts are on raising them in pots while they are young? The reason I ask is because I rent and will only be in this house for a year... I am thinking they'd be a great personal source for alkaloids as I can just collect the leaves as they fall and slowly build up a stash for extraction and brews.

Seldom thanks so much for letting me know about the thin phyllode variation of Acacia Maidenii, it definitely sounds plausible to my situation as I am consistently yielding nothing from these trees which I have presumed to be Floribunda... do you guys know any other species which look strikingly similar to flori? I wish there were more photos on the net.. all the ones I've seen vary quite a lot photo to photo. I also wish I had a camera as I am desperate to get I.D on the trees I've been identifying as Floribunda.

 

[acacian]

I think my next project is going to be on some Acacia Iteaphylla (Flinders Wattle) phyllodes ... theres something about this tree that I'm consistently drawn to. Could be the fact its like the only flowering Acacia down here at the moment and it smells absolutely beautiful, but I guess I'll soon find out

Have you ever heard of alkaloids from this tree nen?

 

[nen888]

bricklaya wrote:

Wow thats disgusting the way the obtusifolias are being treated.. I find it especially odd such a thing happening with a substance like DMT, which is capable and renowned of connecting people to nature in such profound and intimate ways... I like to think as you said, that these people will get their spiritual comeuppance. Its disturbing the huge number of trees being ringbarked though and in such concentrated areas. This definitely suggests profit as a motivation.

..thanks for your comments, briklaya..yeah, i think it's all about profit..like Growpen calculated, one large acuminata (or other high content) branch would yield a kg of bark which would yield 5-15 grams of DMT..that's quite a bit between a group of friends..!
you wrote:

nen, I have about 20 phlebophylla seeds at the moment and im keen as mustard on getting a few plants going.. I was wondering what your thoughts are on raising them in pots while they are young? The reason I ask is because I rent and will only be in this house for a year... I am thinking they'd be a great personal source for alkaloids as I can just collect the leaves as they fall and slowly build up a stash for extraction and brews.

..that's great! they should be fine in approx. 30cm deep pots for 2 years, two or three that size for another 2 years (depth is more important than width)..i've seen an 8-10 year old phlebophylla in a large concrete tub (a few feet deep)..it's about 5-6ft tall with 2-3 branches..i'd say ground planting at this stage would give it bushier growth and more branches..
so, you should be fine to move around with your treelets for a little while..
.

ps. re Acacia Iteaphylla, i don't think it's ever been tested for alkaloids (not publically published, anyway)..sounds interesting..thanks for this initiative..!
.

 

[Gowpen]

..so i went on a walk in (otherwise) undisturbed bushland about an hour or two from a large city in australia, and was disturbed to find that the hideous bark-strippers (tree killers) have been at it in the past year or so!
i'm posting a couple of images, only had a crap phone on me..a six year old who was on the bush walk was very disturbed also, and tried to stick leaves on to help them..
..unfortunately, once this amount of bark is taken the tree starts to lose leaves and dies..around 30-40 of the largest A. obtusifolia in this spot (each around 25-100 years old!) had died or were close to it due to bark stripping..
..so i put out to the world again (besides a call for growing them now):
THE SMALL TWIGS & STEM BARK(of obtusifolia, acuminata and others) HAVE AS MUCH ALKALOID AS THE TRUNK BARK..
..taking bark in this way dramatically decreases this natural wonder in it's rightful place..only the greedy or total uncaring of the environment could do this..:x

I also went for a 8k bush walk with my 5 year old on my shoulders on Sunday. And where there 'should' be Acuminata there are none. A distinct absense of them in fact. My intuition tells me that for the past 20 years they have been culled and not replaced. Something is just not right here. There should be many many of them. I now suspect (and I will research through the Council and other sources) the only available Acuminata are on 'Private land'. Perhaps this is a good thing, perhaps not. I feel like Im one step behind again.

However, It is a big place here and there just must be some .... somewhere.....

 

[nen888]

^ it should be common in southern WA, but i'm not on the ground there, and most botanical distribution descriptions/maps are over 20 years old..knowledge of it's tryptamine content is about 8 years old..concerns have been expressed about it's exploitation on the nexus..
perhaps there's been a lot of clearing/development where it once grew..
the narrow leaf is less common, and the 'small seed variant' rare..
..it would be good to get an idea what situation is..samples sent to me were from roadside plants on, i guess, either council/public roadside or private rural land..
i have a feeling that the WA roads authority may have planted many on highway strips..in NSW the Roads and Traffic Authority (or whoever plants freeways) has planted many now mature maidenii and floribunda along highways..

..it's most common form would be A. acuminata subsp. burkittii synon. Acacia burkitti..it is very widespread in WA, South Aus., and western NSW..because i'm assured it is common, see distribution below..if we include hydbrid forms between acuminata and burkittii, then it is even more common..
but even being common doesn't justify treating it like some have the much less common obtusifolia..
below, burkittii, considered (with some variation) to have the same general alkaloid content as acuminata..

 

[Seldom]

bricklaya lucky man! you might have seen it already but the good ppl over at the corroboree have a thread on growing phlebophylla Raising A.Phlebophylla tis well worth a look. uni (public maybe?) libraries are the best place i've found for taxonomy and distribution info
nen888 that's horrendous man, will not be a happy winter for that poor ol' fella. one thing i think about with increasing incidence of dmt in media is that f*cken clown shoes who do that may be seen as representative of all who get dmt from acacias
does anyone know good way to distinguish melanoxylon from implexa? there's a big amount of trees around where i am that look alot like the one in the second photo of #448 and i've always just assumed they were melanoxylon but undoubtedly some are not, lots of variation between them
also it's not a massively abundant one, and wouldn't be worth the trip to where it grows as biggest yield i've got is .2, but acacia longissima works v. well, i love it

 

[nen888]

Seldom wrote:

nen888 that's horrendous man, will not be a happy winter for that poor ol' fella. one thing i think about with increasing incidence of dmt in media is that f*cken clown shoes who do that may be seen as representative of all who get dmt from acacias

..unfortunately, that ol'fella's almost dead..all leaves almost brown..
and definitely not a good look for the 'dmt community' in aus..

..does anyone know good way to distinguish melanoxylon from implexa?

..implexa (at least all i've seen) have narrower (c.8mm) and longer phyllodes (c.10-14cm),
usually very slightly curved, more falcate than melanoxylon, and darker, slightly glossy..the flowers of implexa are pale/cream, melanoxylon less pale & less numerous..the pods of melanoxylon are more twisted, the seed aril is yellow>pink, implexa's cream..
there are definitely alkaloids of some sort in implexa phyllode..(that's why it's in the 'under research' list on p5)

& glad you're enjoying longissima..a quiet beauty..

ps. implexa common inland from dividing range, melanoxylon more coastal higher rainfall..

EDIT: below are what i would call the typical form of A. implexa, and the fruit below it..the broader phyllode forms still have shiner, floppier leaves than melanoxylon..

 

[acacian]

bricklaya lucky man! you might have seen it already but the good ppl over at the corroboree have a thread on growing phlebophylla Raising A.Phlebophylla tis well worth a look. uni (public maybe?) libraries are the best place i've found for taxonomy and distribution info
nen888 that's horrendous man, will not be a happy winter for that poor ol' fella. one thing i think about with increasing incidence of dmt in media is that f*cken clown shoes who do that may be seen as representative of all who get dmt from acacias
does anyone know good way to distinguish melanoxylon from implexa? there's a big amount of trees around where i am that look alot like the one in the second photo of #448 and i've always just assumed they were melanoxylon but undoubtedly some are not, lots of variation between them
also it's not a massively abundant one, and wouldn't be worth the trip to where it grows as biggest yield i've got is .2, but acacia longissima works v. well, i love it

cool thanks for the link Seldom .. whats the yields like on longissima? They are beautiful looking plants.. the white rods look so nice and puffy in contrast with the really thin phyllodes. do you use phyllodes or bark/stem?

 

[nen888]

..moved this post on here to maintain flow of tree damage discussion on previous page..

..on a much more positive note....
here are some recent images of a DMT containing A. longifolia strain, on the central NSW coast, just starting to flower..
..several attempts have yielded around 0.3-0.5% (probably mainly DMT) from stem/branch bark..one test during flowering was negative..phyllodes not tested..
.

 

[nen888]

..one more historical note...A. maidenii was the first species successfully extracted for dmt/nmt, in 1992 by JG...then E, as they were known then went looking for more maidenii and accidentally misidentified A. obtusifolia as it...E passed on obtusifolia knowledge to Mulga, who later made it public...Mulga looked for and tested apparent maidenii elsewhere and got a negative result, hence obtusifolia became the first species to be hyped, leading to it's unfortunate exploitation..there was even an internet myth once that it was a 'weed'..ridiculous..it is not that common, and mainly preserved in reserved pristine environments..however E was shown the tested maidenii, which wasn't flowering at the time and believes it was actually A.melanoxylon..there are a lot of positive varieties of A. maidenii, and it has a higher percentage than obtusifolia...

..i would encourage people to attempt to source seed of these A. maidenii strains ..

those areas with stripped/dead obtusifolia trees will take 20-40 years to get back to their mature population levels..also, some of these places where such trees grow are very sacred sites..it is, and should be, illegal to damage plants in national parks or flora reserves..
.

ps. this thread agrees with the Nexus policy that DMT should never be sold or bought..this diminishes and endangers it..if people are offered 'DMT' in Australia they could enquire as to what environmental impact has occurred..in other words, some of the DMT (acacia extract) for sale may not be Ethical..buying into it, money or otherwise, is supporting the kind of carnage pictured on p25..

.

 

[Spice Sailor]

Hey there acacia loving nexians. Couldn't agree more with the recent posts about destructive Acacia harvesting. I sadly bumped into some very unethical harvesters last year in a national park in SEQ. I confronted the two gentlemen and tried to tell them that I know what your looking for, but your doing it in the wrong place and going about it in the wrong way. With no reply from them and before I had a chance to educate them they made a hasty retreat in the opposite direction.

I think nens comment about vigilante groups is true. If its what it takes to stop them, so be it.

But back to the better stuff, had success sprouting some acuminata (small seed) in South East Queensland. Just boiled the seeds, threw them in a tray with potting mix and left them outside.

Nen have you heard anything about bio-assys of the extract from A. Falcata you mentioned in the past? It was a while back but would be interested to hear. Also i will take some photos of the SEQ forms of melanoxylon and maidenii like you did because they can be so similar that it's practically impossible without flowers. Also to show the variations between states / regions.

Seldom, just curious, what times of the year have to extracted from longissima and did the process go smoothly?

Spice sailor.

 

[nen888]

..hi Spice Sailor, you wrote:

Nen have you heard anything about bio-assys of the extract from A. Falcata you mentioned in the past? It was a while back but would be interested to hear. Also i will take some photos of the SEQ forms of melanoxylon and maidenii like you did because they can be so similar that it's practically impossible without flowers. Also to show the variations between states / regions.

..A. falcata..i admit to being slow to follow that one up..was definitely 'psychoactive', and reminded me of very low dose dmt/5meo-dmt..was waiting to spot a more mature stand, but there must be many 1000s planted along the Pacific Highway between Qld-NSW-Vic, plus many other interesting species..

..would be good to see your maidenii/melanoxylon pics, especially as you've had success with maidenii..i have actually been to the location from which the CSIRO obtained 0.6% (DMT/NMT) from A. maidenii in the 60s, and spoken with the person who collected the samples..at the site maidenii and melanoxylon were growing next to eachother, and yes, unless flowering, they do look almost identical..only very fine scrutiny reveals differences..
.

 

[acacian]

Also... I found a Paraserianthes lophantha subsp. lophantha which has a giant branch fallen off. I think its been there for a while do you reckon the branch bark would still be ok to test? Otherwise I can just get phyllodes.

Ok so over the next two weeks I'm gonna have a crack at the following:

Acacia Iteaphylla
the assumed Acacia Floribunda from the photo
Acacia Mearnsii ... these are absolutely everywhere around here...
and the one which I suspect to provincialis.

I just wanna get a rough idea of alkaloids what do you think would be ideal amounts to test?

 

[Seldom]

Seldom, just curious, what times of the year have to extracted from longissima and did the process go smoothly?

around 2 months ago, was still amateur hour with the process, solution was reduced too far making ph strips impossible to read, not a wizard just yet

Acacia Mearnsii ... these are absolutely everywhere around here...

there's a quick mearnsii test in the works from this morning, ~170gms rootbark was found poking out of a near-dry riverbed a while back, mostly dead material but some living, hitting it with hot naptha caused this to precip pretty much immediately:

which i've never seen before

hopefully it's a good sign 8)

 

[Spice Sailor]

Anything new from your mearnsii experiment Seldom? Did those crystal looking objects grow?

Wow nen meeting and speaking to the csiro person is amazing. Do you know if the area in question was populated with obtusifolia or within its natural distribution? In conjunction with that question do you think the particular tree sampled was "straight" maidenii or was a possible hybrid? Also in the post about obtusifolia's accidental discovery did you mean that hybrids of the two ( maidenii - obtusifolia) flower in both April and September or ?

Images of maidenii and melanoxylon coming soon.