Trying to improve Acacia information

[Major Tom]

I have some A . Victoriae seed , purchased from a reputable vendor that guarantees correct I.D and provenance , etc . My seed is a similar round shape to those depicted above , and about match - head size , but curiously they are not mottled at all , but fully black in colour . ??

 

[Snurry]

Got some cool results from A. leiocalyx and A. macradenia that I will share in the acacia extractions work place in the next few days.

That's an old post from page 42 that never got updated.
I've got access to one A. Macradenia young tube stock at a local nursery I'm really considering buying (if money wasn't an issue I would have picked it up straight away).

Found 2 other acacia's that are really acacia's this time
I'll have to wait until after flower for the seed pods though. I can't come close to possible IDs just from the phyllodes and young flowers. Though I assume one may be a melanoxylon based on the young flower globes but I could be way off.
I'll post some photos in the ID thread as soon as I can find a seed pod (and a decent camera).

 

[shanedudddy2]

Curious to know of these cool results as well
Since we all live in different locales, we should set out to divide and conquer to identify the different alkaloids in all the remaining mystery acacia that have little or no data.
Would like to study advanced chemistry techniques (which is actually basic chemistry) and kill 2 birds with one stone.

 

[nen888]

..glad there's progress Snurry..........Major Tom wrote:

I have some A . Victoriae seed , purchased from a reputable vendor that guarantees correct I.D and provenance , etc . My seed is a similar round shape to those depicted above , and about match - head size , but curiously they are not mottled at all , but fully black in colour . ??

..it is true that not all A. victoriae seeds are mottled, they can be black..variation is allowed in this regard, as long as other key features are there (e.g. seed shape, phyllode pattern, stipules, paired peduncles)
..the finer points of Acacia identification are at a fairly technical level of systematic botany..the more time spent examining specimens the easier the differences are to spot..
but because of this, it is much recommended for most people to source already ID'd plants as you say Major Tom..
and except for very small testing samples, wildharvesting is not good for the environment..there are many active species planted on highway strips as mentioned before..

Borris wrote:

PS. I didn't want to deviate this thread off topic but I couldn't help notice one of the two active ingredients in the #1 over the counter pre-workout powders
...Notice PEA phenethylamine in the list as the active ingredient other than caffeine and proprietary blend...

..well, it's interesting that a substance i have slightly avoided in this thread for being more toxic (potentially) than Tryptamines/DMT is quite legally available as a 'sports' enhancer..of course it's also in chocolate..meanwhile safer (dosage wise) tryptamine species are threatened with legal control! the LD-50 data is clear..that said, toxicity is a matter of dosage, so within a dosage range PEAs are probably reasonably safe..not my field..
in general statistics though, Tryptamines rule the acacia alkaloid world with only about 12 known PEA species (aus and usa)
.

 

[Major Tom]

nen , I am pleased to read that A . Victorae seed can also be fully black on colour . I would feel foolish indeed giving folks seed to grow - that turn out to be the wrong species a few years down the track ...:x

 

[Seldom]

would be really interested if anyone had anything that relates to molecular phylogeny of acacia species, of all the half-baked lists i've come across online, studies such as the following seem to agree most with successful extraction reports.

From 'Phylogenetic analysis based on nuclear DNA and morphology defines a clade of eastern Australian species of Acacia s.s. (section Juliflorae): the ‘Acacia longifolia group’

Gillian K. Brown A B C, Catherine Clowes A, Daniel J. Murphy B, Pauline Y. Ladiges A' :

Cladistic analyses provided evidence of a clade that defines the A. longifolia group as follows: A. alpina, A. 'a', A. 'c', A. dallachiana, A. derwentiana, A. floribunda, A. longifolia subsp. longifolia and A. longifolia subsp. sophorae, A. longissima, A. maidenii, A. mucronata, A. obtusifolia, A. 'o', A. oxycedrus, A. phlebophylla, A. rhigiophylla and A. riceana

have just found out i have access to Australian Systematic Botany through uni, let the trawling begin ..

 

[nen888]

^..thank you for digging that up Seldom:d ..and a very telling list it is..all except 4 have known tryptamine results, and those 4 simply haven't been looked at (as far as i know) ..
of those 4, all except one are rare (localised/endemic) australian species..
a lover of the cold, Acacia riceana is from southern Tasmania where it is locally fairly common..[pic below]..it is very closely related to Acacia axillaris which is less common in Tas..
Acacia derwentia is very rare and restricted to one valley in Tasmania..it has ball shaped flowers which is very interesting..and shows that ball and rod shaped flower species can be very closely related (as Seldom mentioned to me the other day)
..and Acacia rhigiophylla is only known from two small populations in NSW and SA and resembles A. oxycedrus..
known as Dagger-Leaf Wattle..

..the A. Longifolia group is the pioneer family in terms of modern human alkaloid interaction..

pictured, the only not really rare member of the clan (or 'Clade' ) not yet tested for tryptamines,
Acacia riceana from Tasmania..

 

[nen888]

..another asian acacia receiving more phytochemical attention recently is Acacia ferruginea, [pic p.18]originally native to Sri Lanka where it is becoming endangered..it had a long history of traditional medicinal use use against diseases of the blood, ulcers and liver disease..also found southern India..

Akare et al. 2009 looked at A. ferruginea from Tamilnadu, India, and found that ethanol extracts of the leaves contained alkaloids as well as triterpenoids and steroids..glycosides, carbohydrate, flavonoids, saponin, tannin and a phenolic compound were also present in this, as well as aqueous extracts..as is common these days, we aren't told what alkaloids..
but, in this interesting study of use against environmental poisoning,

leaves were tested for their efficacy against carbon tetrachloride (CCL4) induced hepatotoxicity in Wistar albino rats.

..the ethanol extracts had the activity..

The present work support the traditional claim of plant in the treatment of liver injury, may provide a new drug against a war with liver diseases.

this was by reducing blood levels of alanine aminotransferase, aspartase aminotransferase, and bilirubin.
[HEPATOPROTECTIVE ACTIVITY OF ACACIA FERRUGINEA DC. LEAVES AGAINST CARBON TETRACHLORIDE INDUCED LIVER DAMAGE IN RATS. Akare S.C et al. 2009, International Journal of PharmTech Research]

Acacia ferruginea 'Rusty Acacia' flower..

 

[acacian]

beautiful tree there.. reminds me a little of jurema

 

[shanedudddy2]

May try Rhigiophylla, since I live nearby (at least closer than anything else that I haven't already tried) and few probably have access to it, will report back. Should I try bark or phyllodes? I`ll ensure I grab a small amount to test.

 

[acacian]

if theres anything in the bark it is most likely in the phyllodes too.. perhaps just in smaller concentration. you could maybe prune a few branches.. then you will be extracting from mainly phyllodes and you'll get a bit of bark in there too which will slightly increase yield if there are actives... though really you'd do fine by just collecting more phyllodes. no need for trunk or anything though

 

[shanedudddy2]

All good. It appears to be a plant that obtaining trunk bark is very impractical, since it's shrublike.
I believe I got some phyllodes and stem twigs from a quick pruning this morning.
I do find it hard to be certain with botany identification, especially without flowers.
It seems to be a real art form.
The phyllode description appears to match Worldwidewattle descriptions along with the illustrations, just trying to lookup possible imposters based on the locale.
It's a pitty that I can only find photo's of it in flower, and the flowers often really obscure the small leaves.
Never the less, it was a nice walk in the country before work, saw a few Kanagaroo's and Bunnies about the place.

 

[nen888]

nen - does this Rhizobium bacteria occur world - wide , or is it an Australian organism ?

..missed this one..
Rhyzobium are world wide distributed most places outside the coldest parts of the planet..
they have co-evolved with differentiating species of legume (family Fabaceae) to become in many cases highly specific in symbiosis to individual species..
they would be naturally occurring in all but the most degraded of warm to temperate natural environments..
to what extent these species can migrate around the world i do not know, and it probably requires more research..
there's a whole world of chatting going on between bacteria and plants that science has only pierced the surface of complexity..

in Vosdel's excellent indoor growing guide was the following exchange:

I haven't tried myself specific bio-fertilizers with rhizobium bacteria (yet), so I endorse nen's question.

Rhizobium Etli seems to be the most utilized species, in available forms with 5x10^8 bacteria per gram, so a seedling could be inoculated with around 200mg of fertilizer.

And for the record, acacias are symbiotically associated with particular Rhizobium species, like Mesorhizobium Plurifarium, and some newly found Sinorhizobium (Arboris, Kostiense and Terangae - source, in spanish).

I have tried, though, bio-fertilizers with mycorrhizae fungi, and they certainly speed up the growth in leafy plants. I'm not sure if they have any effect in alkaloid-terpenoid contents.

..hey thanks for this great info, Vosdel..i'm inspired to look into this further..
i simply dug around roots of a couple of healthy adult acacias in the wild, being careful not to damage the roots, and collected a few ball-like rhyzobium nodules..
i then crushed these up and mixed in sandy-loam potting mix with a little peat (not so eco-friendly moss, i know!) ..seedlings repotted in this mix grew 2-3 times faster than those without the rhyzobium, and also developed root-nodes..the trees at 4-6 years were Very high in alkaloid content..
..of course, i have no idea what strain of rhyzobium it is..i suspect there are many yet to be identified such organisms of the soil..

..below, healthy roots with healthy nodes (colonies of rhyzobium)

 

[nen888]

shanedudddy2 wrote:

Never the less, it was a nice walk in the country before work, saw a few Kanagaroo'...

..that's half the experience..the living connection..even in indoor growing the living link is present..

..an important aspect of wild/indigenous plants is their connection to place..
it is not understood well by modern botany why many species are so highly endemic, meaning they just like one or two places, when in theory their seed can be grown in many regions..

herein lies one of the entry points to the concept of the sacred in the kind of topics discussed here..
the land, the animals, even the specific rhyzobium at a place..these form a greater aspect of the 'spirit' involved..

..the experience of seeing a unique tree in it's unique environment is far wider reaching than 'looking for DMT'..
as is the experience of growing, naturing and welcoming these lifeforms into one's home..
it's about a relationship with the natural world..

the plants offer us a great gift..if we truly participate in symbiosis then we offer the plants something back..
looking after them and their environment..i often pick up litter when i'm bushwalking
if these plants were't here it's quite possible no one here would have heard much about the DMT experience, let alone had access to it..
why is the mystery..but developing a relationship with another species is a spiritual experience..

i write this because in sharing info, i know more of these sacred places will be potentially visited..most people will only take what they need..but, how much can we give back too..?
.
eternal thanks to the tree spirits..

.

below, Acacia kingiana was a lovely little shrub described by Maiden (of Maiden's wattle fame) ..it grew in it's own little spot in Western Australia..then cattle farmers took over the area..now it's extinct..i wonder what unique attributes it had, that so linked it to that one little spot..

 

[nen888]

..and source of sacred incense seen growing here in Nepal, Acacia catechu..a tree with increasing medical research..

 

[mrfi]

'lo folx, loving the thread! Have read as far as about page twenty and came across the confusa extraction and i hope someone here could possibly clarify a few things for me? Forgive me if these things have been clarifed somewhere further in the thread, i will no doubt be reading the rest but would like to get going with a small extraction on some longifolia.

1. Its stated a 70/30 methanol/water with a dash of vinegar is used to pull goods from material. Is the vinegar to make this solution acidic and if so to what pH level? Also can HCL be used instead of the vinegar to reach this pH level?

I think my confusion here lies with the fact that the tek states somewhere that the meoh/h2o + vin is better than just acidified water/heat for yield.

2. I have access to a reflux condenser/flask setup. Do i as opposed to boiling in pot, reflux the material for 30 mins or so then filter of soup, add new solution and repeat 2 more times then combine soup?

3. Most of the a/b teks ive read at this point say to reduce solution at this point, is this required with this method?

Also if i was to defat is that before or after reduction?

4. Would i then (reduced or not) basify to between 11 and 12.5 for final pulls?

5. Will shellite work for the defat and final pulls.?

6.Will toluene work for the defat and final pulls?

Thanks in advance guys.
:thumb_up:

 

[nen888]

..welcome mrfi..about 20 pages later the Acacia Extraction Workspace was introduced to de-clutter the thread, so i'll answer the questions there..

 

[mrfi]

Thanks nen, your a champ. In the near future i will be posting some pics of the various acacias we get in the area as well as how the extract goes and the part im looking forward to the most, the bio-assay. cheers mate

 

[mrfi]

Hey again, thanks for your swift response mate. Im posting again here cos ibdont have the option in the other thread. back to my first question is ph meant to be around 4 for the meoh/water/vin mix..?

Also when reduction of the mixture occurs , due to the toxicity of meoh im gathering this should be done outdoors. But im confused about the reduction tho because its mainly meoh and wouldnt this contain the dmt? Now im not sure but i think the meoh would boil off before the water so wouldnt i be losing spice to the atmosphere?

Sorry if these points are a bit n00b but id rather get a few facts straight b4 proceeding. Thanks again.

 

[nen888]

...there are some historical methods from past tests and experiment here..
don't fuss about these numbers (pH)..just don't overdo-it..
also look up extraction in the thread index p1..

and please be kind to trees..
.
back soon all..