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Trying to improve Acacia information

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the flowering thing may be an issue with some trees though I know there are trees down in victoria which give good results during flowering. I've done a number of tests now on what I believe to be a hybrid between floribunda and longifolia and its yields during flowering have actually been very healthy

I think for a rough test you could probably get away with an stb style extraction.. though purification steps should probably be carried out on the non polar pulls. alternatively in the acid boil step you could just do a quick half hr boil and then pull from that. most of the alkaloids come out in the first boil anyways and if you have a bit of ethanol in there that will lessen the time required


on the floribunda note I think theres something interesting going on with the numerous varieties of floribunda and their genetic sensitivity to surrounding flora and I feel they could almost be separated into several sub varieties. Two I am almost certain are occuring are hybridisations with a. longifolia and a.mucronata. there are a lot of trees down here which have the same abundant, loose and creamy flowers - with the same scent as your typical floribunda, and who's phyllodes are absent of any basal gland.. but who's phyllode length and shape vary so greatly that they shouldn't really be classified so simply as acacia floribunda.

just going through my hard drive at the moment and will upload some photos of differen't varieties later on

hope your all doing well and enjoying the disappointingly short time we get to observe our friends in flower 😉 :lol:

to be classified as floribunda, as far as I know the traits to look for are an absent basal gland on the phyllodes - which should have a soft papery texture and fine hairs present,
 
.. and for other victorian researchers out there, I think there are a lot of good candidates for us to work with down here within the mucronata/floribunda/longifolia complex but the extracts are likely often dismissed as inactive.. I'll give my reasons as to why I believe so below

a few of the tryptamine bearing plants I've experimented with down here have all had quite gooey extracts which when vaped in the normal 30-50mg range have quite minimal effects. and it seems that the dmt ratio in some of these extracts is actually quite low..in fact likely too low to achieve stronger effects with the standard dose range that most people achieve desired effects. the dmt ratio could be as little as say 30% dmt or even less. this could explain why many people are deeming their extracts inactive after attempting to vape the standard dose of dmt. I have found a couple of extracts only mildly active when pretty large blobs of goo are vaporised (sometimes getting quite close to 100mg)..

I've found that the most convenient way to get a large enough dose with some of the low dmt ratio extracts is actually by infusing the extract into some leaf (I just use the leaf from the alkaloid bearing tree) at a large enough ratio that a sufficient dose can be consumed for effects. trees I'd previously deemed active but lacking in dmt I have actually discovered to be quite potent in tryptamine effects with this method. this also means the effects are quite varied from purer dmt extracts (both mentally and physically) because quite a high dose of whatever other alkaloids are in there are consumed..an interesting experience for keen explorer. a bong is a particularly effective route of admistration here as it is easy to get it all in one hit
 
acacian said:
on the floribunda note I think theres something interesting going on with the numerous varieties of floribunda and their genetic sensitivity to surrounding flora and I feel they could almost be separated into several sub varieties. Two I am almost certain are occuring are hybridisations with a. longifolia and a.mucronata. there are a lot of trees down here which have the same abundant, loose and creamy flowers - with the same scent as your typical floribunda, and who's phyllodes are absent of any basal gland.. but who's phyllode length and shape vary so greatly that they shouldn't really be classified so simply as acacia floribunda.

just going through my hard drive at the moment and will upload some photos of differen't varieties later on

hope your all doing well and enjoying the disappointingly short time we get to observe our friends in flower 😉 :lol:
Click to expand...
Indeed, Ive noticed retinodes flowers whenever it feel like!
Sooo many different varieties of a.floribunda! Tall and thin with few branches, short and bushy , double trunked ones that almost look like palm trees.
Will look forward to the photos!
 
So im late for this follow up been very busy. Some pics will be posted into the acacia id thread. All these plants are ones im curious about or think/feel that may be suitable for test extraction. All the plants and the area containing them will be referred to as "narnia" for easy future reference. I have not taken anything from any of these trees except one fallen down branch from one very interesting looking plant included. Sadly my "camera" died before i could capture all of them but i am waware that theajority of these species are same or similar variations.

I think for a rough test you could probably get away with an stb style extraction.. though purification steps should probably be carried out on the non polar pulls. alternatively in the acid boil step you could just do a quick half hr boil and then pull from that. most of the alkaloids come out in the first boil anyways and if you have a bit of ethanol in there that will lessen the time required
After further research ill be using nen's simple tek featured several times throughout this thread. Thanks Nen! Keep on keepin on. You (and the rest of the nexus') provided wisdom is invaluable and keeping the dream alive down-undah (and probably around the world as well.)
I have one bit of information as well to add. And i am very curious to know what you all think!? When i first arrived to oz i spent quite a bit of time with a native aboriginal who, astonishingly accustomed to every species of plant and "bush takka?" To the extent of knowing every plant i inquired about and its scientific name. I mentioned to him once about my prior experiences with dmt and the teacher spirit that lay within. Having never tried aya brew, which i would like to add sounds very exciting and spiritually awakening to me, i had never looked into the plan aspects of this (little did i know) vast collaboration of botanical and scientific research. Jump forward two years. See my old aquaintance at adinner. Before i had a chance to mention my new discoveries of this worlds natural distribution of the molecule, he jumps straight into it telling me hiw after what i told him he was out working in th bush and did a bit of research. Quickly id'd obtusifolia ( i mean 4 hrs quick on his first look). The following is what i found quite surprising. His method consisted of a self devised tek designed off many other useful teks.
He said he always started on base and never boiled only freeze thaw smash freeze thaw smash then stb which he had real highs what i found quite surprising. His method consisted of a self devised tek designed off many other useful teks.
He said he always started on base and never boiled only freeze thaw smash freeze thaw smash then stb which he had real high Quickly id'd obtusifolia ( i mean 4 hrs quick on his first look). The following is what i found quite surprising. His method consisted of a self devised tek designed off many other useful teks.
He said he always started on base and never boiled only freeze thaw smash freeze thaw smash then stb which he had real high i cant remember exactly. Then after 1hr-2 acidified but crazely went as low as1!!! Now his theory on this was you can go as low as 1 but it needs to be acidified by aqueous solution but very slowly to avoid ph spike. He reckons ph spike is the most detrimental variable of extraction and with proper slow changes yield can be u rivaled. Then extract salty NaOH wash extract. Anyway curious to know what u all think enough for now
 

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acacian said:
the flowering thing may be an issue with some trees though I know there are trees down in victoria which give good results during flowering. I've done a number of tests now on what I believe to be a hybrid between floribunda and longifolia and its yields during flowering have actually been very healthy
Click to expand...
acacian, Do you happen to remember what the water\rain conditions were at the time of harvest?
Also, did you harvest early morning?
...I imagine just before photosynthesis kicks off would be the best time, if DMT is used to synthesize into plant growth hormones. Does anyone definitively know if this is the case or not?
 
--Shadow said:
acacian said:
the flowering thing may be an issue with some trees though I know there are trees down in victoria which give good results during flowering. I've done a number of tests now on what I believe to be a hybrid between floribunda and longifolia and its yields during flowering have actually been very healthy
Click to expand...
acacian, Do you happen to remember what the water\rain conditions were at the time of harvest?
Also, did you harvest early morning?
...I imagine just before photosynthesis kicks off would be the best time, if DMT is used to synthesize into plant growth hormones. Does anyone definitively know if this is the case or not?
Click to expand...


the first time was about 4:30pm and it had rained fairly recently prior to extraction..2nd time was around 6pm and was raining heavily while it was collected.. it had also rained in the days beforehand too though i can't remember how heavily. 3rd time was collected after weeks of no rain in early summer.. extract for some reason contained less DMT this time round. and a final test was done recently as it was going into flower around 11am...very recent rainfall but not sure how heavy.. it was very wet anyways. great results from both branch and phyllode extractions with healthy dmt content
 
it is interesting.. i wonder whether maybe trees in certain parts of victoria could produce alkaloids under differen't conditions? in melbourne we never really go more than a week or two without rain - is it possible that trees could have adapted their alkaloid production to suit the climate down here?

either way i wouldn't let flowering get in the way of tests.. it would still seem preferable to harvest in drier conditions, but for research's sake its good to test multiple times in differen't conditions too

i've set my goal for the next year to try and crack the code in regards to victorian longifolia, floribunda and mucronata.. all seem to be good candidates but highly variable in taxonomy and i'm pretty confident with dedicated research we should be able to solidly define the desireable forms. on a more personal level I have had this wierd thing with longifolia for some time now and I have a funny feeling it will be a well suited plant teacher for my journey ..so slight selfish motives here ;) ..its definitely one of my favourite wattles thats for sure

I recently collected some branches from a very intriguing stand of longifolia which were similar in characteristics to the active form that nen mentioned some time ago - i.e more tree-like growth as opposed to the common prostrate form that is more abundant down here (i had to stand on my friends shoulders to reach any branches). i also noticed the nerve anastomisation seemed a little more complex than the more common form but the phyllodes were much softer and less leathery... my observation down here though is that the leathery phyllode strains are the ones that seem to grow prostrate.. i didn't notice too much difference in the flower colour.. though it was nearing the end of its flowering so they were fairly old flowers. phyllodes were darker green in colour..
..there was certainly a vibe about them to say the least.. it was a shame that my camera ran out of battery before I could get some nice shots, though I got a few on my friends iphone

photos a little misleading of phyllode length but they generally are around 12cm in length and 1.5cm wide in the centre
 

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..great you're back acacian :)
i like that you say 'tryptamine explorer', as much of the thread emphasised that there is more than the well known three letters going on these trees..

if i'd suggest any other main defining anatomical feature of A. floribunda, it is that the flower heads are very loosely packed (i.e. not dense like A. longifolia) ..i think you're right that there may be hybridisation going on..remember also that many acacias are polyploid, and can throw out a number of variants, potentially to deal with changing conditions..

the limited data on content and (heavy) rainfall was derived from a few species, but not floribunda, which may be different..in fact a few researchers have commented that floribunda is one of the most consistent species they know of, contrasting with your findings..so perhaps it is hybrids you've stumbled across..
as for flowering/seeding, in some species the content was changed qualitatively more than reduced..
there is evidence from a few sources (which needs proper testing) that trees which have had bark removed produce different compounds to discourage further such activity..
we should also remember that there can be significant variation between individual trees of the same species (as found by researcher 'JJ' who presented a few lectures a few years ago)
and as -Shadow suggests, time of day (diurnal variation) may be a factor..and as DreaMTripper mentions, flowering can be a result of climatic conditions, not calendrical..
..with so many species of acacia we can expect a lot of differences in these variance factors..

hi and welcome Triskelionfractal..i think there is no 'right' way to extract, and i encourage experimentation..the main thing i think to consider in any procedure is 'why' any particular step or change to some degree is being done..this allows a greater understanding of it..and also to ask 'why' one is wanting to even do this....the photos you posted are A. sophorae (officially A. longifolia var. sophorae now) which has had a number of positive alkaloid reports, and is indeed an atmospheric tree in it's presence..

thanks everyone for your reports..
we are tools of information for tools of spirit..let's handle the tools wisely..

respect to the trees..
.
 
Not sure if this has been answered already but I did a bit of searching and came up with nothing solid.

What is the optimum photoperiod for Acacias grown indoors?

I realize this may vary with different cultivars.

Currently have 4 acacia floribunda growing under an 18:6 photoperiod and they seem to be doing fine.

Just curious about photoperiod for acacias in general since I can't seem to find much readily available information on it.
 
I've been watching my various acacia's growing under both standard fluro and also LED (full spectrum)

What I have noticed, is that when they are young especially, they only like around 8 hours. How I can tell, is that they start drooping their leaves like they've really had enough for the day.

After a couple of months, i moved them up to 12hr periods, but I haven't gone as far as 18... I'm tempted not to go over 12hrs, acacia's don't share the same growing properties as cannabis for example.

Now.. if the hypothesis is true that DMT is a compound that is further synthesized into plant growth hormones, does this mean that it is only produced when it's dark? I'm not sure.. but if it is the case, then it makes sense to increase your dark periods greater than 6 hrs...maybe...
 
^..don't have any futher info on that one -Shadow..thanks for the indoor growing info..
__________________________________________________




so, what to do..?

When 'DMT' in Australia = Killing the Environment

..what i saw yesterday has left me sickened and shocked..

i took the nexian Spice Sailor to see a very special and pristine nature reserve in a national park where there were large mother seed trees of obtusifolia simply to enjoy their presence, and the bush..a sacred site..too sensitive to touch i would have thought..

to our dismay, every single mature adult tree was either dead or dying..they had been completely stripped of bark, or had so much taken that they could no longer live..every one..maybe 50-60 trees, leaving only very small saplings not yet ready to produce seed..at the growth rates of this tree in the wild, they would have been between 20-50 years old..a few were older

i understand there are greedy and ignorant people out there, but this is the worst case i have ever seen..

if the perpetrator(s) were ignorant, then let me say yet again that taking bark kills trees! ..and then it is another 15-20 years before any more trees grow to a large size..as stated several times, the small twigs have the same amount of content as the bark..there is no need to do long term harm or to kill a tree..as i've said, if you're growing trees you realise that killing them for trunk bark is wasteful and stupid..you can prune a branch..
but please, nature reserves are there to protect the plants..
if they were greedy, then they have stupidly destroyed what was a sustainable supply..the amounts taken here indicate very large scale dealing..
please, if you care about the future of these trees, and the environment in general, don't support the selling of DMT..because you are inadvertently supporting this kind of environmental carnage..
these people are like CSG mining operators..no regard for harming the environment..
the trees were providing habitat for birds and many creatures, and maintaining the soil..more than the trees are harmed by this..even worse, all the seed producing trees in this area are now gone..how is it to repopulate normally? ..this once pristine area is now severely affected for decades..a place where the acacia naturally thrived, now unlikely to do so for a long time..if a bush fire takes out the saplings, it may never come back..

it made me wish i'd never been involved in this thread, in case this thread in any way increased the likelyhood of such a thing happening..if trying to increase awareness of plants leads to this it isn't worth it..
the OP of the thread makes the point of describing the damage to this species, and that increasing diversity of known species and encouraging growing and sustainable harvesting were needed to help this species..
but to what avail?

so savage was the destruction i had to put it down to more than ignorance..it's a level of greed approaching evil..
there are such people in this world..like mexican drug cartels..the main way to stop them is to not support their trade..
so, Australians reading this..the situation is now serious for this acacia..
the Nexus has lots of information on sustainable and easy to find sources of DMT..strains of Phalaris for instance, as well as the great examples of growing acacias, including on this page..

other than try to increase awareness of this sorry situation, which shames the australian entheogen scene, the other action i'll take is to inform the national parks authority about what is going on in that particular area (in NSW) so they can monitor more closely..
..if any Nexians have any other ideas i would like to hear about them..and if there is more of this horror going on elsewhere..

i would say that if the perpetrators actually try their extract they're in for a nasty time..
it's a crime against nature..

i can't believe that in 20 years i've watched beautiful pristine areas turn into graveyards due to people looking for a molecule that's meant to expand their consciousness!

if anyone reading this has any idea who did this..please try to educate them as to the harm they're doing..not just to the environment, but to their own future options..

dark days indeed for 'dmt' in australia..when DMT=Killing..when DMT means habitat destruction..

for those growing the trees..thank you deeply..and the trees will reward you for this..

one more time, for the ignorant: don't take trunk bark..it will kill the tree..and, in the case of this species, they are not fast growing in the wild..
so sad to have to say this again..

the damage was done some time in the past few weeks..
a couple of pics attached..to the majority of thread readers (who care about trees and their habitat) , sorry to have to bare such bad news..
i thought we were getting somewhere..
 

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...surely it can't be a Nexian that has done this...

I would very much doubt that anyone who reads the info in this thread would be pretty clueless to go just for bark, when it's pretty common knowledge now that its easier and completely sustainable to grab twigs & phyllodes.

Don't lose heart Nen. The awareness is what will save acacia's in the end... Whether that be thru people being about to identify and source their own acacia material to work with (and therefore not needing to buy it).. or even simply saving acacia's from being banned by the authorities due to widespread prevalence of tryptamines identified amongst many species.

Imagine if local nurseries stocked adult Acuminata's.... :?
 
--Shadow said:
...surely it can't be a Nexian that has done this...

Imagine if local nurseries stocked adult Acuminata's.... :?
Click to expand...
They do stock 300mm seedlings that only take 2 years to get to 3m tall. I have 2 huge ones now, I called them Romulas and Remus. Although I dont know a male from a female. They are soo beautiful. Also, small twigs have wey more surface area of bark. I have some seeds too, im planting for xmas presents (2015) for friends.

I might be able to make 100's of people self-sufficient before I die, give a man a fish and all that.
:)
 
Very sad to hear nen.. Thank you for letting us know!

Let me just tell you though, that even though these things are happening, thanks to all the work you are doing, more than ever there are people cultivating trees, broadening the options to not rely on just a few species, as well as people informed about the sustainability aspect, how to harvest, etc.

Snozz and I made sure to mention the harvesting sustainability aspect during our talk at aya2014 at least a couple of times, and I noticed whenever we mentioned such things there were many nods of recognition.

I totally relate with your feeling of shock, and can only imagine how you, having such a deep connection with these trees, are feeling right now. But please don't let this discourage you, because you are doing more than your part in educating people and potentiating a sustainable approach. Keep up with the great good work!
 
Everything endlessness said...we have to do our best to work against this.

I will be turning your earlier post into a bit for The Nexian so that we can get this out to more people.

Stay strong nen...things change and you have been (and continue to be) a major factor in more than a few changes.
 
Nen, like most who have read this, it saddens me to hear what has been happening. First of all I'd like to thank you (I'm sure I've said this to you plenty of times before) for all the effort you've put in, not only to this thread but the entire discourse surrounding research into the genus Acacia. You've enabled many to learn a deep and sincere respect for these plants and your dedication definitely reflected in your posts. You've always emphasized the holistic value of these plants, never suggesting the alkaloid content as being of greater importance.

I know nothing I say can undo the harm others have caused to the plants and yourself included. That being said, I believe you have educated and instilled a sense of respect towards the plants in a large number of people (not only members here). Hopefully the ethos you uphold and promote can permeate throughout the social networks of those interested in these plants, somehow putting an end to these type of acts.

The effort you have given to this discourse is not in vein nen, thanks for sharing so willingly.
 
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