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Ultrasonic nebulizer: a new, important idea--must read!

Migrated topic.
Egzoset said:
I keep repeating, you keep ignoring...
What do you want me to reply?

Your posts are confusing

And your reactions rude

My guess is that you're performing an act for the fun of it?
I say that because I hope for your sake that you're not serious..

Egzoset said:
Don't count on the great, boldly Magnificent & utterly Omnipotent Egzoset with a capital "E" to join the IMBÉCILE'S club.

Please stop flaming and be nice

:thumb_up:
 
>> What do you want me to reply?

Look into a mirror.

>> Your posts are confusing

Mirror again.

>> And your reactions rude

What's to expect, again.

The rest: You! You! You!

AGAIN & RECIPROCAL.
 
Actually i've been polite most of the time since 2010.

In any case in my country this is a criminal act to give medical advice without a medical exam, period...

And i only rect to the input to begin with!

E.G. You! You! You! Me! Me! Me! TROLL tactics never end.
 
Not quite a nebulizer, but got a preliminary good result with e-juice atomizing DMT salt dissolved in 70/30 PG/VG with a heat based electronic device.

For me, it was less harsh than FB. Left a pleasant salty taste in the mouth and not a numbing FB sensation. pH measured neutral on the e-juice salt.

Cheers.
 
^ I second this..

When I tried to nebulize (see previous page) the effect were very weak.
At the time I didn't know if the weak effects were due to DMT fumerate being less active, or due to the nebulizer.
As we now learned that vaping DMT fumerate does seem to work in e-sigs, this means that probably a relatively high % of droplet don't reach (deep enough) in the lungs when nebulizing, wasting most of the goodies.

I consider this project closed / busted!

DMT salt Ecig is the way to go..

:thumb_up:
 
So, I finally give nebulizing DMT a try..

All and all a cool experiment, having "vaped" DMT-Fumerate.
And it's an interesting method using room temp droplets instead of heat.

Dissolved 771mg DMT-Fumerate in 2ml water and loaded it into the Omron A3.

The Omron has 3 mist drop size settings:
1: large drops at 0.7ml/min
2: medium drops at 0.5ml/min
3: small drops at 0.3ml/min

I used settings 3 because the manual said that the smallest drops penetrate deepest into the lungs. Inhaled for 10 seconds 3 times (30 sec total). Holding breath for 10 seconds after each inhalation. Inhaling vapor was easy. Effect: very mild. Open eyed visuals, carpet moving etc, nothing special. Afterward felt a very mild burning sensation in deep throat and lungs, which disappeared after a couple of minutes. As if it dissolved away slowly.

30 min later second try. Inhaled 4x 13 second inhalations (50 seconds total). Holding breath for 10 seconds after each inhalation. Nice CEV going on. Felt nice also. No break through. Opened eyes around 5min later. Everything was moving intense. It worked!
But not very efficient.. 771mg DMT-Fum in 2000ml water is 28% DMT-Fum. The Omron manual states the device outputs 0.3ml/min on setting 3. That's around 2mg DMT-Fum per second (2ml / 0.3 ml/min = 6.6min. 771mg / 6.6min = 1.9mg/sec).

First try: 30s * 2mg/sec = 60mg DMT-Fumerate (like vaping 50mg freebase DMT by 120% conversion rate)
Second try: 50s * 2mg/sec = 100mg DMT-Fumerate (like vaping 82mg freebase DMT by 120% conversion rate)

I made sure that the vaporization rate was not less than 0.3ml/min by weighting the solution after vaping: 1.90g, Prior vaping it was 2ml (= 2g) + 771mg = 2.77g. Vaped: 2.77 - 1.90 = 0.85g. 850mg @ 28% = 238mg DMT-Fum. 283mg / (30s + 50s) = 3mg/sec. That's 1mg/sec more than calculated. Unfortunately I only measured the water by volume prior vaping instead of weighting the solution. Point is, the actual vaping rate was between 2mg and 3mg/sec (definitely not less than 2mg/sec). Meaning: sufficient vapor was produced, sufficient DMT was transported into the lungs. Problem is that the DMT dosage was very large for to the effect felt.

I suspect the inefficiency to occur due to droplets condensing in the mouth, throat and upper lungs area. Places where they don't enter the blood stream.

Another theory could be that DMT-Fumerate (in water droplets) is not a potent way to "vape" and that freebase DMT works better. The use of FB DMT can be tested: dissolve 800mg DMT in 0.8ml PG, and dissolve that in 1.2ml water. Not sure if the PG turns to mist as efficient as water, due to higher viscosity etc. Even if it does, in theory FB could be just as ineffective if most of it settles prior reaching the lungs.

One more thing to test can be nebulizing harmala salts. Maybe the drops which land in the mouth enter sublingually and the drops in the throat get swallowed and activated orally. And everything which does make the lungs of course through there. Not sure about the advatage over sublingual harmalas though.

For now I consider the nebulizing DMT vape myth busted.

But just to be sure, someone other than some one with different DMT-Fumerate and a different nebu should try as well.
I suppose it is too late for you to see this, but did you ever try the other settings on your Omron A3? Was there anything exhaled while you tested the smallest drop setting?


Studies have shown that drops can be too fine. Fine drops have an advantage of getting deeper into the lungs, but are also less likely to condense in the lung before being exhaled. DMT users are well trained to hold the hit in, which would help, but it's possible you were exhaling more DMT than if you had used a setting with bigger droplets. In addition to a higher mg/sec rate from bigger droplets, they're more likely to condense and sediment, so at least they don't get exhaled.

If you collected the nebulized aerosol in a bag like Volcano vapors, it might work better to inhale a full breath as quickly as possible, to jet the larger droplets deeper into the lungs than they might have gone from a gentle inhalation. A more forceful transition of air might help the droplets collide with each other too, causing them to sediment during the hold.

I imagine aerosols behave differently depending on their polarity. Water based solutions might be more likely to deposit sooner, being more compatible with tissues I assume. VS non-polar aerosols maybe getting bounced off wetter surfaces. Inhaling substances in freebase form seems to be very effective, perhaps because the molecules are getting deeper than polar aerosols, droplet sizes being equal.

I think someone will find a way to combine the micro-mesh and ultrasonic technologies in the nebulizer, with the convection heating and forced airstream from the volcano, to directly liquify and nebulize the freebase. That's what I want, ultra-fine drops of pure liquid DMT. A one breath deal.

But I can pretty much already do that out of the Volcano. And I recently vaped some DMT benzoate salt straight out of my volcano and it was very effective. So I don't really need a nebulizer to solve the alkaline bite of the freebase, and with dry vaping the salt there are no concerns that come with inhaling aqueous solutions. I suddenly forget why I became curious about nebulizers.
 
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It appears Egzoset was invited by Transform to react, and since my background is in vaporism rather than DMT specifically, it seemed appropriate to ask an AI for assistance regarding these two statements:

...the manual said that the smallest drops penetrate deepest into the lungs.

Studies have shown that drops can be too fine.

The answer I received was that both contain some truth, depending on physical dynamics...

I've experimented with several AI‑driven "discussions", especially micro-droplet heat-shrinking in relation to "gasification" (D²‑law) as in the Sublimator vaporizer of Enrico Bouchard, which later inspired a variety of devices like Camouflet's Convector, the Herborizer (injector stacking) and Vestratto's Tornado:
'Gasification apparatus, gasification assembly kit and method for gasification and concentration of a gasifiable compound'​

His patent makes no explicit mention of large micro-droplets being trapped early in the mouth and throat, or ultra-fine aerosol droplets getting exhaled even before deposition could occur. Although he focused on managing energy in sequential stages and preventing premature condensation (which we can now link to a sub-micron liquid phase), that said practically nothing about an optimal Mass Median Aerodynamic Diameter (MMAD), Brownian motion or the Leidenfrost effect... In short this Sublimator concept always revolved around promoting conversion into a gas and not much else besides intrinsically preventing combustion by design.

While Bouchard's contribution only concerns cannabis consumers, my perception here is that there's some fair consensus reflecting the requirements of an even more delicate molecule called DMT. So the community's interest in ultrasonic nebulization seems fully justified, and hence my own suggestion would be to seriously consider post mechanical-nebulizer thermal sublimation:
#1) Release a mechanically-calibrated (2 ~ 4 µm) mist at room temperature​
#2) Apply heat to change its thermal phase until it behaves the same as a gas​

That ain't no easy goal but the prospect might prove fascinating.

It's already clear 5 ~ 10 µm would lead to oropharyngeal capture, while Brownian motion dominating below 0.5 µm translates to an exhalation loss without tissue contact (a purge!)... Consequently, the optimal liquid MMAD range of an aerosol appears to be 1 ~ 3 µm, because it maximizes alveolar deposition via sedimentation.

However, the ultimate purpose of deep flash-vaporization as in post-nebulizer thermal sublimation is to reach the gas-phase regime: mechanical mist shifts to vaporous state, which removes droplet limitations. But a true molecular gas traveling through cooling airways will face immediate condensation, so this calls for strict thermodynamic control enabling proper management of micro-droplet thermal breakdown prior to subsequent cooling, actively preventing chaotic condensation. Such novel system would imply a temporary phase transition to achieve its controlled condensation - shaping expansion into a perfectly uniform aerosol aiming for your sweet-spot range - ready to swiftly dissolve into alveolar surfactant then diffuse into your blood stream to induce an immediate "breakthrough".

IMO your people will have to engineer some open-loop "ballistic" energy pulse to master that sort of goal. Volts, Ohms, and Watts talk won't suffice; one must also deal with Joules vs. mg, etc.

Good day, have fun!! ☮️



Ref.:

Ultrasonic nebulization platforms for pulmonary drug delivery (2010-Jun-7)​
Assessing the temperature of thermally generated inhalation aerosols (2010-Oct-20)​
Devices for Improved Delivery of Nebulized Pharmaceutical Aerosols to the Lungs (2019-Oct-1)​
Aerosol droplet-size distribution and airborne nicotine portioning in particle and gas phases emitted by electronic cigarettes (2020-Dec-10)​
 
FWIW a mesh nebulizer will deliver <5um droplets.

FWIW, there are real benefits in deconstructing and reconstructing micro-droplets. Cross-examination would have revealed our friendly AIs may actually overlook some blind spots - for example, you people are dealing with a multi-disciplinary puzzle spanning thermo-dynamics, aero-dynamics, pharmaco-kinetics, and bio-physics.

The thing is, water droplets just don't behave like DMT, PG, or VG in airways where humidity is close to 100 %. Additionally, massive thermal gradients and turbulence induce accelerated hygroscopic growth, and unlike simple mist spraying on inert surfaces, it turns out DMT is inherently lipophilic... So that ain't no small challenge to deal with all these layers of stochastic aerosol/airflow interactions that completely alter particle size before they even reach deep inside your lungs. Furthermore, contact still won't guarantee immediate dissolution, let alone systemic diffusion: to successfully cross a gas-exchange barrier is only half the battle, and gambling on a chaotic, mechanically-generated mist could very well translate into an equally random bio-kinetic outcome.

M'well, at least that's what seeking a second AI opinion could put into relevant perspective.

I continue to believe that by resetting the system via thermal flash-vaporization to transition to a true molecular gas phase, you'd effectively establish a clean thermodynamic slate to draw on. It won't hurt to add specific energy (J·mg⁻¹) to the toolbox; when it's time for condensation, you better have leverage to control nucleation rate, to shape expansion toward an optimal alveolar match with reasonable accuracy, and to maximize interaction with your lung's surfactant so as to finally achieve some near-instantaneous "breakthrough".
 
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