Uncooked crudo ayahuasca

[JungleJuiceJester]

For this, it may be worth considering something like The Herbal Percolator, or a cold-brew coffee set-up. With this you could have something that's both cooked and uncooked - percolate cold, then simmer gently to reduce volume.

Thanksy, this sounds very interesting because in this tek Capi, Mimosa and Chaliponga are mentioned and reported as beeing a sucsessfull extraction.

Did you have to drink more of it than usual? Or was it the same volume?

It was way more than usually. We did not get a normal cup it was more kind of a bowl.

By the way, you can prepare ayahuasca with a quite good taste. My brews are similar in taste to natural cough syrup.
I see no point in a diluted brew, except for using it as a purgative. And you would need to drink a ton for any real effect.

How do you do it? Did you wrote it down somewhere? Does this preparation also minimise the vomitting or purging on the toilette?

 

[northape]

How do you do it?

Years of experimentation and a return to basics: don't use too much acid (if any), and find a good vine material to start from.

Did you wrote it down somewhere?

Nope, a lot of similar information was on old aya-forums that are now just a part of web history.

Does this preparation also minimise the vomitting or purging on the toilette?

Nope, because that's the healing effect of this brew. Purging could be mitigated by keeping yourself clean (both in body and mind).

All the Best

 

[JungleJuiceJester]

Update: Crudo = uncooked Ayahuasca is just a cold water extract.

A friend of mine prepared it with a shaman. He just crushed the vine, put it in a bucket, crushed the leaves, put it in the same bucket, filled the bucket with water, let it sit for like 18h overnight and filtered it. That's everything. He tried it and got the usual Ayahuasca effects.
That means Chacruna CWE works.

 

[blig-blug]

Thank you for this info!

That means Chacruna CWE works.

It was to be expected because mimosa CWE works too, but it's good to have it confirmed.

 

[northape]

That means Chacruna CWE works.

Of course, it works. The only real question is how good it is. I doubt that you can achieve very good potency using this method.
If that were the case, everyone in the Amazon would use it. It is a very humid environment where preparing firewood takes extra effort.
When it comes to using dry material, I think it becomes a total misuse. Still, everyone is free to do whatever they want.

 

[Yuxibu]

Some reputable European online vendors have been selling caapi ultrasonic paste, affirming that by that extraction process the brew never exceeds 40°c. It looks pretty much the same as a fully cooked and reduced extract (honey like) and it is supposed to taste a bit less revolting. I got my hands on some and should be testing it in a week or two, but unfortunately with the, which won't help much taste wise. But I will also experimenting some wine making techniques for tannin removal on the bark so who knows, I might finally hit the jackpot and come up with a jurema brew that doesn't taste like radioactive poison (fingers crossed )

 

[northape]

Some reputable European online vendors have been selling caapi ultrasonic paste, affirming that by that extraction process the brew never exceeds 40°c. It looks pretty much the same as a fully cooked and reduced extract (honey like) and it is supposed to taste a bit less revolting. I got my hands on some and should be testing it in a week or two, but unfortunately with the, which won't help much taste wise. But I will also experimenting some wine making techniques for tannin removal on the bark so who knows, I might finally hit the jackpot and come up with a jurema brew that doesn't taste like radioactive poison (fingers crossed )

Hmm, technology improves every aspect of our lives

Why are people so focused on the taste? I'm much more interested in the effect and the spirit behind the brew. Taste is the last of my concerns.
If you compare an aya brew to a poorly made rue or mimosa tea, it would be tasty. Bark teas made with good technique could be quite gourmet, too.
Honestly, I don't see the problem. I clear barks and rue, not for the taste, but to make them digest better. People want in without paying anything.
It doesn't work that way, especially when it comes to medicine.

 

[blig-blug]

wine making techniques for tannin removal on the bark

PVPP? I had been thinking about trying that too (for Mimosa): Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone (PVPP) for Mimosa tannin removal
I don't think I'll try it now because the TnT vodka+lime tek works very well, but if you try it let us know how it goes.

If you compare an aya brew to a poorly made rue or mimosa tea, it would be tasty

That's very true. The first time I tried it I was surprised that (despite it's horrible appearance) it actually tasted good compared to mimosa, rue, or even just harmala salts in juice.

People want in without paying anything.

I think if it can help some people overcome initial hesitations it can be good. For example, pharmahuasca is "easier" to hanle in many respects, and I think it has been beneficial to me, at the point I was at. Although I understand what you mean.
At least they will be paying money, because those extracts are pricey

 

[northape]

At least they will be paying money, because those extracts are pricey

Just as donating to a good cause earns you merit, paying a lot of money could be your way in

 

[Yuxibu]

Why are people so focused on the taste?

I do actually enjoy the taste of Ayahuasca, as long as it is not fermented. That sweet honey undertone of a properly reduced brew is probably already engraved in my DNA.

When it comes to Jurema, it kinda goes together with being able to keep it in. And whatever you do you can only pass it from having taste of radioactive poison to simply tasting bad, there's no way around it.

People want in without paying anything.
It doesn't work that way, especially when it comes to medicine.

I agree. It is already so world famous, just imagine if it tasted like soda.. it would have gone extinct already.

PVPP? I had been thinking about trying that too (for Mimosa): Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone (PVPP) for Mimosa tannin removal

No. Bentonite. I will test it out for the first time, if it is successful I will share the results.
My previous approach has been raising the pH a little with sodium bicarbonate. Adding it spoon wise (dissolved in water) to the brew just until I see the first tannins crashing. Then let it rest in the fridge a few days, decant and re-acidify again. I manage to create a few interesting brews that way, not only was it translucent and wine looking, it did actually taste like a very woody wine.
But I always noticed a significant loss of actives that way so this time I'll try a new approach.

Just as donating to a good cause earns you merit, paying a lot of money could be your way in

It is indeed pricey. But when you live in Europe and want to cook your own medicine it is a good approach.
I've tried lots of different mixtures ingredient wise (in terms of different leaf and vine sources) and besides it being a bit like playing Russian roulette, 90% it works but the results are just average.
Mind you, I cook the traditional way, a pot full to the brim, cooked in the fire. Taking medicine, praying and chanting during the whole process. Well over 12h of cooking and 24h+ more for reduction.
And that's simply too much investment (financial, energetic and time wise) to get just average results.
That is where these extracts come in. Of course it needs to be a good extract. If you know how to choose, not only will you have a good extract with the right consistency, it will have been prepared with fresh material.

My last approach was the most successful until now (after dozens of cookings over the years) and it was the following:
3,5 kg of chacruna
1kg of caapi Vine
Some chaliponga leftovers from a previous cooking (probably around 200 or 300g)
500ml of a good quality 12:1 Cielo caapi extract (equivalent to 6kg if fresh material)

Leaf material was cooked together with 1kg of vine, just so that the vine's energy can fuse with the leaf. 3 cookings of 4h (counting from the moment it starts boiling), filter well, gather all the boilings in one pot, add a small pinch of citric acid, reduce reduce reduce. the last 5 liters are reduced in a hot plat with temperature control. Getting close to the 2 liter mark the brew was already somewhat thick but still runny, that was when I added the caapi extract. From there on I let it reduce very slowly at 70-80°c for 4 more hours.
The results: a thick uniform and potent brew. 20ml is enough to give me visions of the like I only get with Jurema.

 

[blig-blug]

My previous approach has been raising the pH a little with sodium bicarbonate. Adding it spoon wise (dissolved in water) to the brew just until I see the first tannins crashing. Then let it rest in the fridge a few days, decant and re-acidify again. I manage to create a few interesting brews that way, not only was it translucent and wine looking, it did actually taste like a very woody wine.

Look into the vodka and lime tek. Basically, you keep Mimosa inside vodka (40% ethanol, 10g of vodka per g of Mimosa) for some hours, strain, and slowly mix pickling lime (calcium hydroxide) stirring well. Tannins will precipitate with apparently no loss of actives. Then you can just reduce the volume of liquid to a more manageable amount.

 

[Yuxibu]

Look into the vodka and lime tek. Basically, you keep Mimosa inside vodka (40% ethanol, 10g of vodka per g of Mimosa) for some hours, strain, and slowly mix pickling lime (calcium hydroxide) stirring well. Tannins will precipitate with apparently no loss of actives. Then you can just reduce the volume of liquid to a more manageable amount.

While that seems to be an interesting option to explore in the future, bentonite clay might be one of the cheapest resources out there. I paid like 2,50€ for 100g and need about 10 to 20g for the clarification process.
Besides being extremely cheap there will be no need for any other solvent or additive.
In theory there will be no loss of actives if I don't use too much, but I will be able to test that out soon.
Another reason to stick to this is the fact that I'm actually fond of having a cooking process, that's when I usually pour in my prayers, chants and intentions. Call me a traditionalist but I believe it is important to give to the medicine what you would like to receive from it, and cooking a medicine for 9h is the perfect time window to be taking some medicine myself and doing a little ceremony for what's being cooked.

 

[northape]

When it comes to Jurema, it kinda goes together with being able to keep it in. And whatever you do you can only pass it from having taste of radioactive poison to simply tasting bad, there's no way around it.

Look into the technique that @blig-blug proposed. I use egg white filtration and get a fairly drinkable mimosa tea that way. Filtering it many times and adding honey at the end of reduction usually helps. As you said, it's all about keeping it down and helping digestion. My latest tea was almost without any tannins and similar to a cough syrup. I tend to tweak all my recipes in that direction.

I've bought the ingredients many times, tried lots of different mixtures ingredient wise (in terms of different leaf and vine sources) and besides it being a bit like playing Russian roulette, 90% it works but the results are just average.

I hear you. Sadly, that's the case nowadays. I never found good chacruna after the Hawaiian variety disappeared. Chaliponga is a hit or miss, but it's typically quite consistent.

When it comes to the vine, it's a game of Russian roulette for sure. I worked with two varieties this summer. The first one wasn't very visual at all, but I got the biggest cleanse of my life from it. I was purging from every end, and lots of blockages just dissolved. One kilogram gave me just four sessions, and I used enough chaliponga for it to be extremely visual. The second red vine was extremely strong, and I cooked the most powerful yagé that I ever worked with. I could easily get ten high-level ceremonies from it.

Yeah, it all depends on so many factors. I'd say you get together with the vine that wants to work with you. There is a higher order at play here.

 

[Tricholoops]

Plants, like us, are filled with water.
Therefore, likewise with us, the plant's chemicals are likely to be in water soluble forms, that means salts, or (mostly weak) acids.
Therefore, cold water extractions are very likely to be effective, it will just take a higher ammount of water, and work, and it will be of course, way more diluted than a concentrated "Apurado" brew. But its very possible.
Another very effective way to extract from dried samples is to use some kind of alcohol, preferrably above 90% pure.

Before brewing, I am one who loves to soak the materials in cold water for at least one night, before the boilings. And I've found that most of the actives usually come out after one single soak, given there's enough water to dissolve the whole active content. Interestingly enough, in my experience, I've found that for some plants, there's absolutely no need to break or to powder for more suface, specially RBs, on other hand, some plants like Vines, are best to be pounded/shredded.

I don't think I have to mention how important the math is.

Much love!

TPb

 

[northape]

Plants, like us, are filled with water.
Therefore, likewise with us, the plant's chemicals are likely to be in water soluble forms, that means salts, or (mostly weak) acids.
Therefore, cold water extractions are very likely to be effective, it will just take a higher ammount of water, and work, and it will be of course, way more diluted than a concentrated "Apurado" brew. But its very possible.
Another very effective way to extract from dried samples is to use some kind of alcohol, preferrably above 90% pure.

Before brewing, I am one who loves to soak the materials in cold water for at least one night, before the boilings. And I've found that most of the actives usually come out after one single soak, given there's enough water to dissolve the whole active content. Interestingly enough, in my experience, I've found that for some plants, there's absolutely no need to break or to powder for more suface, specially RBs, on other hand, some plants like Vines, are best to be pounded/shredded.

I don't think I have to mention how important the math is.

Much love!

TPb

The basic problem with CWE is how much liquid you need to ingest, and the reduction step makes CWE obsolete.
Drinking liters of a mild ayahuasca brew would never bring you to the same places that a concentrated tea can. That's just the pharmacokinetics of it.
Maybe I lack some experience with it, but that's my firm belief at this point. The preparation method was perfected during the last few thousand years, and if cold brew could get you there, no one would cook and reduce the tea. So, you get very different medicine with the same material, depending on the preparation method used.

 

[blig-blug]

I stumbled upon this quote yesterday while reading Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca, by Metzner and others. This is in the first chapter, by Dennis McKenna:

A further important discovery was the finding that the levels of alkaloids typically found in the mestizo ayahuasca brews exceeded the levels found in the upper Rio Purus ayahuasca by Rivier and Lindgren, sometimes by an order of a magnitude or more. Based on the known human pharmacology of DMT and beta-carbolines, Terence McKenna and coworkers showed that a typical dose (100 ml) of the mestizo ayahuasca samples contained enough DMT to constitute an active dose. The investigators suggested that the lower levels of alkaloids found in the Shuar samples of Rivier and Lindgren (1972) may have resulted from the different methods used in preparation. The Shuar typically soak the Banisteriopsis and admixture plants in cold water; they do not boil the plants, nor do they reduce the volume of the final extract, as is typically done in mestizo practice.

(emphasis mine)

 

[northape]

I stumbled upon this quote yesterday while reading Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca, by Metzner and others. This is in the first chapter, by Dennis McKenna:

A further important discovery was the finding that the levels of alkaloids typically found in the mestizo ayahuasca brews exceeded the levels found in the upper Rio Purus ayahuasca by Rivier and Lindgren, sometimes by an order of a magnitude or more. Based on the known human pharmacology of DMT and beta-carbolines, Terence McKenna and coworkers showed that a typical dose (100 ml) of the mestizo ayahuasca samples contained enough DMT to constitute an active dose. The investigators suggested that the lower levels of alkaloids found in the Shuar samples of Rivier and Lindgren (1972) may have resulted from the different methods used in preparation. The Shuar typically soak the Banisteriopsis and admixture plants in cold water; they do not boil the plants, nor do they reduce the volume of the final extract, as is typically done in mestizo practice.
(emphasis mine)

You won't get far with just a cold soak and liters of the brew. It's fine for cleansing and preparation, at most. I'd recommend reading 'Rainforest Medicine: Preserving Indigenous Science and Biodiversity in the Upper Amazon.' It's the best book on the myths and traditional use of ayahuasca. I got most of my understanding from there. It's a fascinating read, with lots of stories and art.

 

[blig-blug]

You won't get far with just a cold soak and liters of the brew

Oh yes, I'm not arguing about that. I shared it more as a curiosity. If it's indeed true that that's how the shuar used it, maybe their intention was different. Or maybe you just need less when you live in more primitive conditions in the jungle. Our situation is closer to that of the mestizos.
Thanks for the book recommendation!

 

[northape]

Oh yes, I'm not arguing about that. I shared it more as a curiosity. If it's indeed true that that's how the shuar used it, maybe their intention was different. Or maybe you just need less when you live in more primitive conditions in the jungle. Our situation is closer to that of the mestizos.
Thanks for the book recommendation!

I think it heavily depends on the tribe and their technical know-how. I'd argue that some of them copied the ayahuasca practice. That's why I suggested the book. It goes into detail about many tribes and how they worked with ayahuasca. It's quite mestizo-like in many cases. I'd love to drink with the Siekopai people. They do just that: liters of a very light brew early in the morning to cleanse and tons of strong ayahuasca at night. These people are true psychonauts. More details are in the book

 

[CosmicRiver]

You won't get far with just a cold soak and liters of the brew. It's fine for cleansing and preparation, at most. I'd recommend reading 'Rainforest Medicine: Preserving Indigenous Science and Biodiversity in the Upper Amazon.' It's the best book on the myths and traditional use of ayahuasca. I got most of my understanding from there. It's a fascinating read, with lots of stories and art.

View attachment 105401

sorry for the OT, i know it says Upper Amazon but does it say anything about Shipibo-Conibo as well?