Very high dose Harmalas, with or without DMT

[Panpsychic]

This is inspired by a recent discussion and I think deserving of its own thread.

Rue is infinite, the possibilites with it are endless, there is no celing to it, but i havent been able to take more than 13g, other than the 30gs i took years ago (spaced out throughout the day) that showed me everything i needed to see and made me fall in love with rue, i went to heaven and came back, till this day i cannot forget the feelings i felt that day, even though idk what those feelings really are.

Ime, rue becomes an almost entirely different substance when you go past 7g, the only words i have to describe it is timeless and infinite.

I talking about here reports of very high amounts of Harmala consumption, primarily either Peganum Harmala/Caapi tea or large quantities of seeds crushed and consumed. Either as a stand alone sacrament or in combination with DMT, either smoked or oral consumption.

Personally I am both intrigued and excited at the possibility of comsuming larger quantities of Rue, as I had heretofore only considered it as adjunctive with the DMT but the possibilites of very heavy Harmala intake, maybe built up over time will be something, also when combined with DMT.

I would start with a question for @harmala_afficianado , how do you say Rue becomes a 'totally different substance' past 7 grams, and did you take it one dose or spaced out, and how long did it take for you to work your way to that dosage?

 

[Jamie01]

There seems to be some exaggeration here imo.

 

[northape]

I'm eager to hear some stories too. I think @Espurrr may bring insights about higher doses

Around 8g was my strongest dose to date, but I never saw a clear cut from a lower dose. It was more like a development of the same themes and effects.
After around 5g you get into nausea land, and any movement tends to lead to dizziness and purging. Vision starts to open up for real then, and you find yourself in a dream-like experience. The headspace remains quite clear though. Sometimes I get sleepy and very tired at these doses (most likely blood pressure plummets then). I hear one can have a death-like experience - when you're certain that death has come and it's your last moment. I won't comment on that, cause I'm strange that way. Somehow I never see ego-dissolution as death. So even if I experienced something like that, it never registered as important.

 

[blig-blug]

There seems to be some exaggeration here imo.

Or a very inefficient tea-making procedure, or very weak starting material. I agree in finding it quite doubtful that someone has had 13g Syrian rue seeds of about 6% harmalas content (about 780mg harmalas) without serious side effects, and even more so daily.

@harmala_afficianado it would be interesting if you extracted pure harmala alkaloids from your seeds, to get an idea of how strong they are. And then, you could also try progressively higher doses of alkaloids until you get to a similar level of experience as your 13g seeds were (I highly discourage directly taking 780mg).

 

[Jamie01]

I can imagine most of the people into taking large doses on the reg have tolerance as well, which constantly people try to pretend isn’t real and instead think they have new powers to metabolize harmalas better etc. It starts to seem a bit unhinged tbh.

 

[Jamie01]

My personal experience is this. I have taken big doses, little doses, medium doses..microdose. I have been taking harmalas from vine and rue on and off for 17 years. When I’m using full pharma/aya etc doses weekly or maybe twice a week, I become more sensitive to harmalas. I need less and less. If I am taking even medium doses daily I begin to experience tolerance to both some of the more tryptamine type effects and some of the physical side effects. I really feel that most of the claims of ppl taking more and more and more with less side effects is just tolerance at some receptor setting in.

One thing I would warn people of is like northape mentioned the drop in blood pressure. I already have low blood pressure generally and my highest dose of real ayahuasca honestly ended up with me having to get someone to drive me to a clinic for this reason. I was certain I had fainted every time I tried to stand up, and was vomiting for quite some time. I could only lay there flipping in and out of my body Into places and experiences I have never been able to describe. It was the most terrifying and physically unpleasant thing I have experienced and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I was reckless with these brews back then and wanted to be able to drink like 2 or 300g of vine etc.

Unrelated but a rather conservative dose of iboga took me deeper into that harmala like space than I had ever been. It’s too bad Iboga is under threat because a low to medium dose of ibogaine with cannabis is something I think most people into harmalas would really enjoy.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

I would start with a question for @harmala_afficianado , how do you say Rue becomes a 'totally different substance' past 7 grams, and did you take it one dose or spaced out, and how long did it take for you to work your way to that dosage?

There is a difference between going up to a high dosage slowly over weeks or months, and taking a high dose in a day or a few.

The first 2 months i was taking 4-5g, i couldnt take more than that at the time, by the end of the second month i have found that the drowsiness and nausea were pretty much fully gone, so i jumped to 7g then 8g, the effects and the "vibe" of 8g makes it feel like a completely diff substance than 4g imo, its like i learnt all of what i learnt taking 4-5g for 2 months, then jumping up to 8g and realizing i knew nothing about rue till now, the spirit had a way more powerful presence and at first starting on 8g it felt like it was guiding through every single thing im doing, seeing, hearing etc, after some time, i jumped to 12g, and at that dose things started getting pretty crazy, i have read about @embracethevoid description about heavy doses daily and i think theyre pretty accurate, when i would take 12g, my whole vision would be shaking and wobbling and doing all kinds of strange stuff, but at the same time it felt like i had the eyes of the truth, and i had soo much power inside of me i could break walls (i actually did it btw haha) no one could really look into my eyes, and just a small insignificant word i would say would change the whole vibe of the room and would make everyone look at me, the state i was in on 12g felt like how monks and gurus describe life, it felt like i was vibrating at the same frequency they were vibrating in, life was as smooth as the smoothest thing you can think off, i have manifested alot of things in that state.

There were lots of things that happened when i was taking 12gs, i kinda forgot most of them now, and im not sure how or what really happened but im certain rue can give you IMMENSE power, you just have to know how to harness it.

Now about the 30g trip i talked about, i have no idea how i got there, i just had the thought of exploring these mysterious seeds, so i kept taking teaspoon after teaspoon the whole day, and by night time i opened a veil that wasnt meant to be opened in this lifetime, i was in heaven, but the way heaven was layered in this 3rd dimensional world was the most mindblowing thing for me, the visuals and the emotions and feelings were something that felt so divine, and i feel incredibly thankful for such an experience, it really healed me more than anything else, it felt like gaining access to the dmt dimension while being fully clear headed and not confused.

It is not an exaggeration, infact im oversimplifying it way too much, those experiences have to be felt and not described, if your still in doubt, try working your way up to 12g seeds (wether in a day or in a year) and tell me what happens, rue has ALOT to offer.

Im not good at describing experiences like that, but a simple description on how rue changes from 7g+ is that the rue spirit shows its true character (and power) and its true character is something not from this dimension, when it shows itself, there is no dimensional laws or physical laws, its like a VIP ticket beyond the veil, unlike with dmt it isnt really VIP, imo.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

I can imagine most of the people into taking large doses on the reg have tolerance as well, which constantly people try to pretend isn’t real and instead think they have new powers to metabolize harmalas better etc. It starts to seem a bit unhinged tbh.

There is something alot of people miss, its that when you take a powerful psychoactive plant (like rue) and build tolerance to the main effects you felt at first, you will feel like theyre diminished, but if you keep on taking it, you will then build tolerance to the tolerance you have built, and thats imo where the magic starts to happen with rue.

 

[northape]

One thing I would warn people of is like northape mentioned the drop in blood pressure. I already have low blood pressure generally and my highest dose of real ayahuasca honestly ended up with me having to get someone to drive me to a clinic for this reason. I was certain I had fainted every time I tried to stand up, and was vomiting for quite some time. I could only lay there flipping in and out of my body Into places and experiences I have never been able to describe. It was the most terrifying and physically unpleasant thing I have experienced and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I was reckless with these brews back then and wanted to be able to drink like 2 or 300g of vine etc.

Tobacco helps in situations like that. I think it's an open secret in the ayahuasca scene. Mapacho smoking is there not only for shamanic purposes, but also to mitigate the blood pressure drop that caapi can produce. Your experience sounds extreme. Glad you made it through.

It is not an exaggeration, infact im oversimplifying it way too much, those experiences have to be felt and not described, if your still in doubt, try working your way up to 12g seeds (wether in a day or in a year) and tell me what happens, rue has ALOT to offer.

I'll do just that when I have a proper opportunity in life. Thank you for your account. It was a fascinating read.

 

[Jamie01]

There is something alot of people miss, its that when you take a powerful psychoactive plant (like rue) and build tolerance to the main effects you felt at first, you will feel like theyre diminished, but if you keep on taking it, you will then build tolerance to the tolerance you have built, and thats imo where the magic starts to happen with rue.

Okay. My experience with the tolerance is different I guess. I don’t doubt what you claim to have experienced at these doses. I can come off sounding harsh often so please don’t take it personally. I have experienced a lot of profound stuff on higher doses as well but getting there is different for me. I never experienced a reversal of the tolerance when taking them daily. Especially rue/vine only brews felt extra energized if I was just drinking weekly.

I won’t claim that more frequent use doesn’t have its benefits. You can def learn to work with that energy more.

 

[Jamie01]

northape I have never considered mapacho being used in that way with ayahuasca. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

Tobacco helps in situations like that. I think it's an open secret in the ayahuasca scene. Mapacho smoking is there not only for shamanic purposes, but also to mitigate the blood pressure drop that caapi can produce. Your experience sounds extreme. Glad you made it through.

I actually quit smoking long ago, but after starting with rue i started smoking again, even though rue helped me stop all harmful habits, like masturbation and junk food etc, i find it abit hard to not smoke a cigg when on rue.

I'll do just that when I have a proper opportunity in life. Thank you for your account. It was a fascinating read

Your welcome my friend, im sure if your intention is right rue will only do you good.

Okay. My experience with the tolerance is different I guess. I don’t doubt what you claim to have experienced at these doses. I can come off sounding harsh often so please don’t take it personally. I have experienced a lot of profound stuff on higher doses as well but getting there is different for me. I never experienced a reversal of the tolerance when taking them daily. Especially rue/vine only brews felt extra energized if I was just drinking weekly.

I won’t claim that more frequent use doesn’t have its benefits. You can def learn to work with that energy more.

Rue is probably the most unpredictable and context dependant plant ive ever used, you really never know if its going to be stoning or stimulating or if youll build tolerance or reverse tolerance, i think intention plays the biggest role on the effects you will get, but all i know is that rue is a powerful intelligent being, and it will give you some of those powers if you fully agree with what its trying to tell you.

 

[Espurrr]

hes not wrong, but you have to also consider the way this affects whoever is reading it, maybe put some effort in seeing things from the perspective of many different people dealing with their unique circumstance and issues reading something like this with virtually no talk about the delicate balance needed for consuming high doses of a monoamine inhibitor on a daily basis, if not then why talk about it with other people ?

yes there are some types of substances namely beta-carbolines and cannabinoids, that are so metabolically benign its possible to consume amounts that are similar to how much of a essential mineral you consume , and can continue to have the "proper" effect with increasing dosage unlike most substances

but this works for someone who has navigated the possibility step by step through sometimes years of experimentation and forming a wide - expansive understanding of the pitfalls and dynamics of how it works

anyway my 2 cents

 

[blig-blug]

I would still encourage someone taking such high doses to extract their seeds to estimate potency and to then try a supposedly equivalent dose of pure alkaloids. Not only out of curiosity, but also because if e.g. the seeds that the person has been taking so far are unusually weak, taking the same dose of stronger seeds could be dangerous, particularly if it happens unexpectedly.

 

[Panpsychic]

I would still encourage someone taking such high doses to extract their seeds to estimate potency and to then try a supposedly equivalent dose of pure alkaloids. Not only out of curiosity, but also because if e.g. the seeds that the person has been taking so far are unusually weak, taking the same dose of stronger seeds could be dangerous, particularly if it happens unexpectedly.

Yes, this is an advantage of brewing the tea over consuming seeds directly, the color will give you a fairly good indicator of Harmala concentration.

There is a difference between going up to a high dosage slowly over weeks or months, and taking a high dose in a day or a few.

The first 2 months i was taking 4-5g, i couldnt take more than that at the time, by the end of the second month i have found that the drowsiness and nausea were pretty much fully gone, so i jumped to 7g then 8g, the effects and the "vibe" of 8g makes it feel like a completely diff substance than 4g imo, its like i learnt all of what i learnt taking 4-5g for 2 months, then jumping up to 8g and realizing i knew nothing about rue till now, the spirit had a way more powerful presence and at first starting on 8g it felt like it was guiding through every single thing im doing, seeing, hearing etc, after some time, i jumped to 12g, and at that dose things started getting pretty crazy,

Few cross these thresholds, and it looks like its designed that way.

i have read about @embracethevoid description about heavy doses daily and i think theyre pretty accurate,

His posts are definately worth checking I agree, he is not active anymore it seems but its good you have found resonance there with a fellow heavy Rue eater/drinker.

when i would take 12g, my whole vision would be shaking and wobbling and doing all kinds of strange stuff, but at the same time it felt like i had the eyes of the truth, and i had soo much power inside of me i could break walls (i actually did it btw haha) no one could really look into my eyes, and just a small insignificant word i would say would change the whole vibe of the room and would make everyone look at me, the state i was in on 12g felt like how monks and gurus describe life, it felt like i was vibrating at the same frequency they were vibrating in, life was as smooth as the smoothest thing you can think off, i have manifested alot of things in that state.

These levels I would say require serious spiritual disciplines alongside them to properly direct and channel the forces being opened up and avoid your system getting out of whack otherwise it would be unsustainable.

There were lots of things that happened when i was taking 12gs, i kinda forgot most of them now, and im not sure how or what really happened but im certain rue can give you IMMENSE power, you just have to know how to harness it.

Its worth recording just brief notes the day after a powerful experience as memory prompts as you will be suprised how much can be missed otherwise. Still what you have shared is very deep already and beckons those who want to venture forth with the right attitude to do so.

Now about the 30g trip i talked about, i have no idea how i got there, i just had the thought of exploring these mysterious seeds, so i kept taking teaspoon after teaspoon the whole day, and by night time i opened a veil that wasnt meant to be opened in this lifetime, i was in heaven, but the way heaven was layered in this 3rd dimensional world was the most mindblowing thing for me, the visuals and the emotions and feelings were something that felt so divine, and i feel incredibly thankful for such an experience, it really healed me more than anything else, it felt like gaining access to the dmt dimension while being fully clear headed and not confused.

It is not an exaggeration, infact im oversimplifying it way too much, those experiences have to be felt and not described, if your still in doubt, try working your way up to 12g seeds (wether in a day or in a year) and tell me what happens, rue has ALOT to offer.

It will take me some time and I'm not sure I will ever get to 12 g but 7 -8 g may be feasable in time.

Im not good at describing experiences like that, but a simple description on how rue changes from 7g+ is that the rue spirit shows its true character (and power) and its true character is something not from this dimension, when it shows itself, there is no dimensional laws or physical laws, its like a VIP ticket beyond the veil, unlike with dmt it isnt really VIP, imo.

There's actually a lot of misinformation out there in the literature on Rue, and it looks like its because people hadn't gone through the rigour and acclimatized to it and not really worked with it properly with right intent over a long period, just assuming it was the same as any psychedelic and that you just take it and thats it.

This was myself included when I first had a very strong Rue tea a decade ago now, nausea and body temperature fluctuations with some minimal mental effects combined with the literature saying that Rue usually wasnt particularly active on its own at least compared to classic psychedelics, combined with unwarranted scare mongering over tyramines comined with people generally wanting instant gratification has all contributed to the underappreciation and under exploration of this sacred plant. Descriptions by those such as yourself go a long way to clarifying what is possible so thanks it is very valuable.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Yes, this is an advantage of brewing the tea over consuming seeds directly, the color will give you a fairly good indicator of Harmala concentration.

I think the taste is a more reliable indicator for tea strength. The more bitter the tea, the higher the alkaloids content, the stronger the effects. This indicator has never been wrong for me when having rue teas. Color might be affected by other things than just the alkaloids content, among them the filtration or seeds origin. I've had strong as well as weak teas with differently looking ones.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

hes not wrong, but you have to also consider the way this affects whoever is reading it, maybe put some effort in seeing things from the perspective of many different people dealing with their unique circumstance and issues reading something like this with virtually no talk about the delicate balance needed for consuming high doses of a monoamine inhibitor on a daily basis, if not then why talk about it with other people ?

I mean, i was sure everyone here knows that rue is a maoi and can have alot of interactions, and that you need to be careful with dosing, i didnt really think i had to state this.

Infact, rue is so safe that even the claims about food interactions and other serotonergics, is completely overblown, i eat whatever i want whenever i want, never once did i experience any side effect, also, i combined high doses of tryptophan with it, nothing happened, and i also microdosed dxm a few times, still 0 side effects, obv im not telling anyone to take dxm and rue, but the rue stigma really needs to die, the plant is wayy more than just safe.

The only thing imo that one needs to focus on when starting to work with rue (considering one doesnt take any other medications) is intention, full stop.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

and it looks like its designed that way.

Yep, exactly.

These levels I would say require serious spiritual disciplines alongside them to properly direct and channel the forces being opened up and avoid your system getting out of whack otherwise it would be unsustainable.

Yeah, i eventually had to go down, even tho i was functioning very well on it, it is not a state one can easily maintain.

Its worth recording just brief notes the day after a powerful experience as memory prompts as you will be suprised how much can be missed otherwise. Still what you have shared is very deep already and beckons those who want to venture forth with the right attitude to do so.

Funny thing is, i considered doing it many times, but i always felt like the harmala was telling me not to, because it could give me an ego boost later.

There's actually a lot of misinformation out there in the literature on Rue, and it looks like its because people hadn't gone through the rigour and acclimatized to it and not really worked with it properly with right intent over a long period, just assuming it was the same as any psychedelic and that you just take it and thats it.

Yea, the information about rue online barely describes anything about it, infact alot of what i read about it online turned out to be false and the full opposite was true.

 

[Espurrr]

I mean, i was sure everyone here knows that rue is a maoi and can have alot of interactions, and that you need to be careful with dosing, i didnt really think i had to state this.

Infact, rue is so safe that even the claims about food interactions and other serotonergics, is completely overblown, i eat whatever i want whenever i want, never once did i experience any side effect, also, i combined high doses of tryptophan with it, nothing happened, and i also microdosed dxm a few times, still 0 side effects, obv im not telling anyone to take dxm and rue, but the rue stigma really needs to die, the plant is wayy more than just safe.

The only thing imo that one needs to focus on when starting to work with rue (considering one doesnt take any other medications) is intention, full stop.

i have worked with many people who wanted to consume harmalas and my experience has not been what you're describing, harmalas can go extremely wrong and do go extremely wrong and when they do its not a pretty sight

also there is the case with us humans where we live our life time with the notion that nothing is going extremely wrong in our life and believe everything is just how it should be while objectively something IS going extremely wrong and we are completely blind to the fact

the only safe things are inert, drinking water is safe, "harmalas" would be useless if they were "safe"

 

[harmala_afficianado]

i have worked with many people who wanted to consume harmalas and my experience has not been what you're describing, harmalas can go extremely wrong and do go extremely wrong and when they do its not a pretty sight

Thats why i said intention at the end, if harmalas did you wrong then your intention wasnt right, simple as that.

also there is the case with us humans where we live our life time with the notion that nothing is going extremely wrong in our life and believe everything is just how it should be while objectively something IS going extremely wrong and we are completely blind to the fact

And what is one supposed to do in this situation? To ignore all the positives and keep searching for negatives just in case one is completely blind (for some reason)?

No one is blind completely beyond his control, we choose to blind ourselves.