*Water Only* Tek -- work in progress

[amor_fati]

but how do you propose that, amorfati, if sodium carb isnt yet working well with precipitating dmt directly out of mimosa-tea water?

Maybe a bit cryptic, but my statement is not limited to reference of this tek. Removing lye and hazardous solvents from extraction is nothing new, but if this tek could be done without lye, that'd be great too. My question is that there's plenty of reason to not use any hazardous chemicals, so why not go all out? Why would one choose this tek over another that doesn't incorporate lye is the question. Separation of polar from nonpolar layers is a cinch with freezing.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

KOH is also pretty caustic and it could hurt you bad too without propper precautions (for example if a solution with it drops in your eyes.

It just doesn't seem to be as aggressive on the skin, is my meaning behind not as strong as NaOH.

Hmmm... I'm not at all convinced of this latter claim. Nor would I recommend testing it.

It's still a good base, though.

 

[Wanderer]

Lots of great discussion everyone! I've found the amount of lye I use in this process is pretty minimal (maybe 6 rounded teaspoons for 100g extraction). And I've got some of the lye-saturated solutions on my hands and in a cut, and didn't really experience any dramatic injury or burn, which isn't really a risk if you wash it off pretty quickly. The only big risk here is the eyes, so make sure to wear eye protection.

Lye has been used for hundreds of years, and I don't really get a bad vibe from it (as I would from petrochemicals) -- if you don't like that it's made from chemical processes, you can extract your own from wood ash. It's not that difficult to do.

I will update as I get more crystallization. The big 100g batch is beginning to crystallize now. Should be a couple more days.

-- Wanderer

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This tek looks very promising. It might be good to do a run through an espresso coffee maker for making the brew.

 

[FiorSirtheoir]

I made some from wood ash, it has to hard wood, no conifers or pines, hickory is best from what I have been told and read. This process creates KOH, has a redish-orange color to it. You can strengthen it by multiple ash washes and then evaporation - it will form crystals if completely dehydrated.

 

[Opiyum]

Currently going through the filtering process.

The lye batches did not change after three days. The ph was just tested and was shown to be 12.40. Additional lye was added and, with both the first and second boil, at the moment the ph reached 13 an orange oily substance was seen floating on top. They have been put back in the fridge in hopes that now crystals will grow.

The first and second boil of the sodium carbonate solutions is being filtered. In both cases there was a large amount of brown particulate resting at the bottom of the container. The first boil had, as seen in one pic, a black crusty substance on top. The second boil, also pictured earlier, had a brown oily substance floating on top. I don't have much confidence in these two batches. Nothing about these makes me think spice.
In both the sodium carbonate batches the ph is at ten.

Is there any reason that the sodium carbonate would be what has precipetated out? Sodium carbonate should stay in solution in DH20 even if it's refridgerated right?
It may be worth noting I filtered the hell out of the mimosa tea before basifying. I first ran it through a t-shirt, then coffee filters, then I let it sit for a few hours, decanted and then ran it through a vacuum filter (huge pain in the ass as the filters clogged almost immediately and I went through about 10 of them.

In the pictures you can see the filtrate from the Na2CO3 batches. It was a grey sludge and I've been running warm water over it. It is leaving behind brown/black waxy.... ...stuff? Not sure how comfortable I am with bio-assaying this material.
Can anyone tell me what this stuff could be theoretically?
The only things entering into the equation are heat, water, MHRB and Na2CO3.

 

[logos2012]

Sorry, The Green Entity sounds a bit of an ass in his post. He must refrain from posting when he is that stoned and drunk. All very good points that have been brought up.

Anyways his aversion to lye is just a personal preference. The big question would be that if one were to get this tek to work with sodium carb instead of lye and it pretty much just worked just as good, how many people would still use lye instead?

For those who would prefer to not use lye it would be nice to find a way for this to work with sodium carb. He is not totally opposed to using lye, he may just try it with this tek to see the difference of quality and experience from other teks. He would rather brainstorm ways of making sodium carb work than debate whether lye is not good to use...... and yes as stated, there is not really any right or wrongs just different perspectives in the polarities and it is up to the individuals free will to decide what is best for them although a good debate always brings better understanding for the individuals to decide.

check the cake extraction from spiceman, it works on this idea of making a freebased mimosa dry cake, pulling with some kind of alcohol and then evapping. But it will be very impure, and adding to sodium carb water wont make it crystallize because it will be already in freebase form. Maybe if you redissolve it in FASW and then add sodium carb saturated solution it could work. But this also brings me to:

Please forgive him he is not a chemist yet he does have some ingenuity.

So after the evaporation of the IPA it would already be in crystallized form, and it wouldn't get refined anymore by placing it in sodium carb water?

What if one were to pull with IPA from the drytek sodium carb mixture, then drop some FASIPA and collect the precips for freebasing? Is that just the standard FASA method or is that different in some way? Would it still be pretty impure?

 

[FiorSirtheoir]

Can anyone tell me what this stuff could be theoretically?

Maybe it is Jungle?

 

[Opiyum]

Can anyone tell me what this stuff could be theoretically?

Maybe it is Jungle?

hmmm...could be i suppose.

Only problem now is that warm water isn't removing any more of the grey gunk from the brown stuff(possibly jungle?). Most of what was there initially dissolved in the water and flowed through the filter. Unfortunately not all of it has so I'm left with those dark brown chunks mixed with this grey crap. No idea what the grey stuff is...my guess is sodium carbonate or some byproduct thereof.

 

[endlessness]

Opium do you have fumaric acid? You could try using warm FASW to wash/redissolve at least part of that precipitated goo, and then using sodium carb to precip it again (like in BLAB water freebase crystalization). But wash your precipitates now with plain water (or dilute sodium carb solution) a couple of times before doing the FASW thing, to remove sodium carb excess if there is any, otherwise the sodium carb excess might be too much and immediately neutralize the FASW and not dissolve the dmt/convert it to salt.

Thanks for the tests, dont throw anything away and keep us informed!

 

[Wanderer]

Thanks for all the tests Opiyum! The reason the Na2CO3 precipitated out is because solubility of a compound is affected by temperature (hot water will "hold" more salt than cold water). With semi-soluble compounds like Na2CO3, this can be rather dramatic.

I'm not sure exactly what that brown sludge is. Carbonate shouldn't react with acids period, and the sodium ion wouldn't make any insoluble salts with the natural acids (tannic, oxalic, etc.). It may be DMT... I suppose the only way to know is to try and clean it as much as possible and "burn" a little bit to see what sort of odor it gives off. If it smells like indole (old-people breath, new-shoe smell, cheap cologne, floral, etc), it's probably DMT.

And I'm glad to hear you got the lye solution going! Yeah, it seems like the pH needs to be pretty high. You'll see crystals forming in a few days

-- Wanderer

 

[Opiyum]

I do have fumaric acid so I may try that out.

I was able to separate some of the brown gunk and I tried to vaporize it but it wouldn't. Used a torch and it just didn't do anything. At first I thought this brown/black stuff was just mimosa contamination that got through regardless of very thorough filtering. Now I think it's all just sodium carbonate crystals that has varying degrees of the mimosa tea soaked into it.

I might try this again but I think someone more experienced than me should probably run some tests with Na2CO3. Wanderer are you planning on doing a sodium carbonate batch?

Also I had one idea and I'm curious where if at all the flaw is in this thinking... If you could get DMT to precipitate along with the Na2CO3 as the temperature decreased, couldn't you then slowly increase the temperature until the Na2CO3 dissolves again leaving behind the water insoluble DMT that could be captured in a filter?

 

[Wanderer]

Opiyum -- I personally don't plan to use Sodium Carbonate again; I don't believe the pH is sufficiently high enough to break the tryptamine alkaloids from their respective acid ions (tannic, oxalic, phenolic, etc). That brown sludge might just be carbonate which encapsulated the colored-solution within pockets of its crystalline structure (hence the non-combustability). I personally feel lye is fine to use, and I've had great success with it. It might be less-safe to use than dehydrated baking soda, but it is just as natural (if not more-so). And if one can't practice the precaution necessary to handle lye safely, I'm not sure the use of potent psychedelics is advocated either. Additionally, lye can be made anywhere in the world using incredibly simple processes (this is how most Yopo is made, I believe), whereas making or extracting Na2CO3 requires either specific mineral deposits or industrial chemical processes.

Nothing against Na2CO3, I just prefer lye over it. Indeed, heating the solution should increase the solubility of Na2CO3, which may very well liberate the DMT (I've read anecdotal reports that it does). Keeping the solution heated while filtering it might allow one to separate the DMT from solution, but I'm not sure how crystallization could be achieved.

------

Attached is a photo of the 100g lye-batch. One can clearly see crystallization occurring. The entire yellowish, opaque layer is liquid DMT. A pretty good yield is expected from this.

-- Wanderer

 

[jamie]

"Attached is a picture of the spice extracted from about 30-40 grams of MHRB on the first boil"

30-40g bark..not DMT

 

[SKA]

You should calculate how much percent the extract makes up of the total weight of the MHRB that was used to extract it from.
The average DMT content of any given amount MHRB can be expected to range from 0,5% to 1,5% of it's weight. It's DMT content is said to be rather consistent and usually doesn't deviate much from about 1% of it's weight.

I guess you'd have to perform a simple STB extraction(with Lye, Water and Diethyl Ether) on some of the same Batch of MHRB. If you have enough MHRB for that.
You should use the same amount of MHRB in the STB Tek as you used in your Water & Lye Tek.
Weigh the number of grams of the extract from the STB Tek and Calculate the Percentage that this weight makes up of the MHRB from which it was extracted.
Do exactly the same for your Water & Lye Tek.

Then you can compair the percentages and see if your Tek is equally efficient as the conventional STB Mimosa extraction Teks.
Then off course you should test the Potency of both the extract from the Water/Lye Tek and the extract from the STB Tek.
You could then determine if the extract from your Tek is less, equally or more potent than the extract from the STB Tek.

 

[Wanderer]

Well I have to wait for crystallization to finalize before I weight everything, but I will weigh it. Another option is to use an NP solvent to attempt to extract any remaining DMT from the lye-water batch. If more comes out, then we know it doesn't get everything.

-- Wanderer

 

[Ice House]

OK so this thread was started on the 12 Feb today is the 20 Feb. I have yet to see any definative results posted.

Wanderer you got my hopes up. Whats going on here? I really want to see this thing work.I am seeing mixed results with no final yeilds. I'm not understanding why.

I have some supplies. Stay tuned. Tomorrow I will begin a new thread documenting this tek in detail begin to end. I would like to lay this to rest in my mind.

Does it work? I'm not talking about what looks like some crystals forming on the surface of some mimosa tea. Does this tek work? does it result in an clean dry usable end product.

I'm not saying I can do it any better. What I am saying is that this tek needs to be started and finished as the instructions outline.

or is that possible?

Am I missing something here? Does this tek just take a long time to complete and I am being impatient asking for results?

How long does crystallization take to finalize? Is that the unknown part of this tek?

Respectfully

IH

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Can anyone tell me what this stuff could be theoretically?

Na2CO3 crystals coated in a thin layer of DMT + sodium tannates? Or, more likely, sodium bicarbonate crystals so coated. The CO2 formed when the Na2CO3 reacts with DMT tannate has to go somewhere. It reacts with the nearby Na2CO3:

Na2CO3+CO2+H2O -> 2NaHCO3

NaHCO3 has a much lower solubility in water than Na2CO3 does. Try boiling your sludge with a little water, it will cause the NaHCO3 - if that's what it is - to break down into Na2CO3 and increase its solubility. You might then be able to skim off DMT.

What this actually suggests is, in order to make a Na2CO3 water tek work, the tea should be boiled again after the addition of the Na2CO3, thus driving off the excess CO2 and pushing the equilibrium in favour of freebase formation. It's probably worth using a lid to minimise loss of alkaloid.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Well I have to wait for crystallization to finalize before I weight everything, but I will weigh it. Another option is to use an NP solvent to attempt to extract any remaining DMT from the lye-water batch. If more comes out, then we know it doesn't get everything.

-- Wanderer

So...it's been 2.5 weeks, what were your results?

 

[moyshekapoyre]

Well it's odd that no one else is posting definitive results. I wonder why? Here are mine. Maybe I did it wrong, but my quick appraisal is that this tek gives the very purest, clearest DMT crystals I've ever seen, yet the yield leaves much to be desired when the volumes are scaled up from the little ones others were talking about, and it is extremely difficult to collect all of the crystals.

I used 1kg of bark (yes, i know, that's a lot). I boiled it and filtered many times. Amazing how many times gunk starts forming. Anyway as per the tek I decided not to reduce too much as I wanted it to be very liquid. With the 2 gallons of liquid, I basified til it got dark as the tek said to do, using 100g lye (adding more lye did not change the color anymore). Left it in basement for 3 days. Came down and saw that no crystals formed. Decided to throw in a bunch more lye, probably way too much (altogether I used ~500g of lye). By the time I had swirled only 100g of those 500g into the liquid it was at ph 13+, and I saw the crystals forming all over the place! In a minute the entire thing was full of these crystals. I caught a few of them in a coffee filter and after washing, they were so incredibly clear, I knew I had never seen DMT this pure before. Not white, but clear. The only problem remaining was how to really harvest the crystals. The only thing I could think of was to pass the entire 2 gallons through a cotton filter. Unfortunately, though it seems crystals could not get through the filter (they were not found in the liquid coming out the other side), the filter at the end had definitely less than 2g of crystals, probably much less, as most of that 2g seemed to be bark or something. I ended up having to soak that stuff in acetone as the only way I could think of to get the spice out of it. The acetone is still drying (I didn't put it in the dehydrator, thought it would dry by itself but I was wrong I guess). But it can't possibly have much more than a 1g of spice in it.

I am now in the process of reducing all of the liquid with no crystals in it. I am going to get it down to a gunky consistency and then do acetone soaks til i get all the spice out. I'm thinking theoretically this tek should have worked perfectly. I don't understand where all the spice went, but I imagine that for some reason it is still in this liquid, as it could not have simply disappeared into thin air. I'll report final yields hopefully within a week.