*Water Only* Tek -- work in progress

[Opiyum]

I got really interested in this earlier tonight so I decided to give it a shot. I recorded all the measurements and took a couple pics(don't think they will really be necessary though) and I am now at the point where the tea will be basified.

I did a 100 gram batch and followed the steps as directed but then decided to do a second water boil. I have kept the first and second boils separate to see if a second boil is necessary or not.
I'm also thinking maybe I will split the two pulls in half. So it will be two halves of the first boil and two of the second. I was then going to basify one half with NaOH and basify the other half with Na2CO3.
If I do decide to do half with Na2CO3 I will do it with by titrating a saturated solution of Na2CO3 into WARM tea. That would be nice to see similar yields with sodium carbonate.
Nothing beats a tek that only needs water, baking soda, and oven and a pot.

Really interesting work Wanderer!

 

[Wanderer]

Why thank you Opiyum, and it's fantastic you're also doing another test-run (and with Na2CO3 no less!). I hope this works well for everyone, and that yields prove high (I think they will be).

Excellent work everyone! :d

-- Wanderer

 

[Opiyum]

Figured I would post a couple pics of everything I did that I mentioned in the above post. Everything seemed to go as expected up until the NaOH was added. It went cream colored and cloudy then turned black but I'm not seeing any separation of layers. Just a solid black liquid.

The Na2CO3 batches did exactly the same thing. Creamy white then black. One now is more gray and has an orange oily layer on top. The other is black and has a lot of solids forming on the bottom and sides of the container.

The first pic is of the 1st boil, based with Na2CO3, in which a lot of precipatate is sinking and building up on the sides.
Number two is from the second boil with NA2CO3. Looks a lot like what is described from NaOH.

 

[moyshekapoyre]

just wondering--i don't know much chem yet but do you guys think KOH would work just as well as NaOH? i've heard KOH is less toxic.

 

[Malaclypse]

Indeed Malaclypse, it doesn't really look dark enough to have freebased, but if SWIY can see floating and liquified DMT, he may be on the right path. Heating the solution might make more of the lime soluble, and so increase the pH. SWIY may also want to try sodium carbonate, but from SWIM's own experiment there, it doesn't seem to be a strong enough base (without heat).

Just an update. After over 4 days not much more appeared to happen with whatever precipitated out and floated in SWIM's test. SWIM did spoon up what was there and let it dry out and it looks/smells like a flaky DMT but the amount was negligible. With SWIM's limited understanding of the chemistry at this point he assumes that whatever small amount of Calcium Hydroxide that did dissolve in the solution precipitated a tiny bit of freebase, but most of it should still be in the liquid in salt form still. Does that sound reasonable?

So SWIM just re-filtered the liquid off the top of the lime which had settled to the bottom of the jar. It's now actually more of a yellowy/orange color compared to the mahogany of the MHRB solution. It's actually still really basic easily over 10 based on his test strip. He is thinking about creating a hot water bath for this and adding in some sodium carbonate while the jar sits in the bath.

Wanderer would you see any reason for SWIM to test out with Lime again only making sure that the water was warm to help the lime dissolve? He would be willing to donate another little batch of MHRB if it might be possible just to test it out.

 

[Wanderer]

Opiyum -- There won't be an immediate separation of layers. Wait 24 hours and you should definitely see some bits of almost pearly or oil-like sheen on the surface. If you don't, try adding more lye (that seemed to help get a bit more from my batch). That's interesting the Na2CO3 seemed to separate out an oily layer -- perhaps it will work after all, but to a lesser extent? Interesting developments!

moyshekapoyre -- Yes, you should be able to use Potassium Hydroxide (KOH). In fact, that's really what wood-ash lye is (10x more KOH than NaOH), and the difference in pH will be negligible in this case (it's like 13.6 compared to 14 for NaOH).

Malaclypse -- Well I don't think lime needs to be tested again. Seeing as it isn't very soluble and it didn't turn your solution black, I don't think it's quite basic enough. The only other variation would to try and heat up the solution to see if that increases solubility, but the total difference may be negligible. If you have lye, it would be interesting to see what sort of difference adding that to the newly filtered solution would make.

-- Wanderer

 

[Opiyum]

I took a couple more pics of the Na2CO3 batches. There's some strange stuff going on in these two jars. I won't even try speculating what is going on but I'll just post the pics and maybe more experienced minds than mine can say....

The second picture is the Na2CO3 from the first boil and has a black hard crusty top. I think I'm gonna give it all another day before I run it through a filter.
One of my lye batches is starting to form an oil on top but only a very small amount. I may try adding more lye tomorrow.

...Can't wait to test out the sodium carb batches.

 

[Eluna]

This is pretty interesting im keeping an eye on it, thanks to the people doing the experimenting!

 

[LawnMan]

I agree with previous post this is very interesting. I wonder if this would work with other plants.

 

[Wanderer]

New updates (images)!

So the Carbonate solution didn't seem to work well (as reported previously), so lye was added. After about 2-3 days, solid crystals can now be seen floating on top (see picture; those rainbow/colorful specks actually appear to the eye as well, DMT apparently has funny refractive properties). The other pictures attached are of the crystals drawn off a second draw off the first lye test solution (with 20-30 grams of MHRB), which produced more crystals -- quite a bit more -- after more lye was added. I washed the crystals with fresh water, and they are now pretty much clear (the yellow light gives them a yellow hue). The other picture is of the current 100 gram batch, with lye. As you can see, there is quite a bit of DMT floating on-top. Some good crystals should come out of this one.

Patience seems to be key here, guys. The good crystals shown in the image took a few days to form. But I think the final product is worth it (good, clean, clear crystals).

Opiyum -- strange! I look forward to seeing what happens with the Carbonate. Be patient with the lye one -- sometimes it can take a while.

-- Wanderer

 

[logos2012]

Nice very nice indeed! Although he doesn't like the idea of using lye.

The Green Entity wonders.....

He doesn't know if this would work but what if one were to do a dry tek freebase with sodium carbonate first to ensure freebase? Powder the bark, mix with sodium carbonate and minimum amount of water (probably in a blender as per armor_fati tek)

Then add more water (don't know how much) and filter the plant matter out. Then let sit in fridge for a few days.

If so it would be the easiest tek ever and most non toxic. Input please....or he might just have to try it.

 

[endlessness]

The potential problem I see with that, logos, is that when you freebase with sodium carb, once you add the water, the dmt freebase wont be moving to the water (because its insoluble in it, so unless you pull with a solvent, you cant discard the plant matter or you'll be discarding the goodies.

What is it about lye you dont like? The possibility of it in your final product? (in that case do a hot water wash)

or is it the fact that it can burn you? (then wear protection)

or is it that you dont want to buy it for being watched, expensive or unavaliable or not wanting to get industrial-grade products? (in that case you could make it yourself with sodium carb+calcium hydroxide)

 

[Enoon]

aaaaaah I want to know (final) yields!!!! let us know.. PLEASE!!!!

Also if yields are good will there be a final clean write-up of this tek? I hope so. It's awesome work! If I get a weekend off I will def. try this as well.

cheers & love
Enoon

 

[Shaolin]

Also if yields are good will there be a final clean write-up of this tek? I hope so. It's awesome work! If I get a weekend off I will def. try this as well.

If this method proves reliable and efficient, SWIM thinks he will write up a sort of formal outline of the process (despite its simplicity) as a PDF

(in that case you could make it yourself with sodium carb+calcium hydroxide)

Ca(OH)2 + Na2CO3 → CaCO3 + 2 NaOH

Scaling up can be problematic, Calcium Hydroxide is expensive is some parts of the world etc, what will actually be in your NaOH if you make it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate to sodium hydroxide, ...

I don't think this route is well researched on here.

 

[prottel]

aaaaaah I want to know (final) yields!!!! let us know.. PLEASE!!!!

I got about 0.8% yield from one batch. This was after reducing 20g to 40ml. The results were quite dirty, so not quite happy with it. My other batch, the one that is shown in my pictures looks much cleaner. I have yet to remove and weigh it.

 

[Ginkgo]

To the ones testing this tek: Could you do a test with a common extraction procedure - or multiple - side by side with the water approach, and post all the numbers here? This will allow us all to visualize the efficiency of this tek a lot better than just plain numbers (which are more or less meaningless without something to compare them against).

I might be testing this approach next week, just want to see the results from you guys first.

 

[Opiyum]

I'm using the same bark that has yielded 1.7-2.0% with various other teks recently...in fact I think I've posted about them.
So we'll see what kind of numbers I get and I did record the volumes and weights of everything I used.
Just not done yet.

It's really interesting watching this change day to day. The jar labeled 'second boil Na2CO3' now has crystals growing in that brown oily material floating on top. The others haven't changed yet.


EDIT: Starting to see the first couple crystals forming in the lye batches. Only the first boil, not the second.

 

[amor_fati]

Very cool guys! Again, another with an aversion to lye (for all of the reasons that have been listed, plus knowing someone who got some in his eye while cleaning a drain), and lime's worked consistently for SWIM, thus-far. Still though, anything to get folks away from using questionable and hazardous solvents is a giant leap forward. When SWIM used to use a wet technique to convert fumarates to freebase, collecting with naphtha, he would do it in a fairly chilly environment and crystals would form between layers. This reminded him of that.

Try using THP for filtering, rather than coffee filters, and it should be more expedient. Also, try manual crystallization to get a nice, easy to handle, solid product. Also, ditto to doing a more thorough wash...lye probably wouldn't be a great additive to pharma.

 

[logos2012]

The potential problem I see with that, logos, is that when you freebase with sodium carb, once you add the water, the dmt freebase wont be moving to the water (because its insoluble in it, so unless you pull with a solvent, you cant discard the plant matter or you'll be discarding the goodies.

Yeah he was thinking this but he figured that since it was freebased that it would be released from the plant matter and travel with the water, yet he sees the problem if one were to filter, it would probably get stuck in the filter right? Perhaps filtering while hot might help it migrate to the water?

He would rather use IPA than lye...So in that case, could one not just do IPA pulls on the drytek sodium carb mixture, then evaporate, then add to sodium carb water to crystallize?

What is it about lye you dont like? The possibility of it in your final product? (in that case do a hot water wash)

or is it the fact that it can burn you? (then wear protection)

or is it that you dont want to buy it for being watched, expensive or unavaliable or not wanting to get industrial-grade products? (in that case you could make it yourself with sodium carb+calcium hydroxide)

This is just their opinion but the entities are of the understanding that the final result retains the energies of whatever chems were used in the process of making it. Even if it is fully washed and chemical analysis shows no traces, it still had to go through the process of being in that harsh environment to achieve the final result.

He has no problem with buying lye from a local store.

He doesn't like to have to wear goggles, gloves, solvent mask to protect face, etc.. if he doesn't have to.

He is also concerned a bit about it being in the final product.

If one was too concerned about it being in there and willing to use IPA, one could always salt the final result using FASA/FASIPA, then do some washes with IPA and then freebase again.

 

[endlessness]

Yeah he was thinking this but he figured that since it was freebased that it would be released from the plant matter and travel with the water, yet he sees the problem if one were to filter, it would probably get stuck in the filter right? Perhaps filtering while hot might help it migrate to the water?

I really dont think it would work, freebase dmt might slightly dissolve in hot water, but i doubt all or most of it (though if you wanna try anyways, just dont throw anything away and have some solvent in case you need it)

He would rather use IPA than lye...So in that case, could one not just do IPA pulls on the drytek sodium carb mixture, then evaporate, then add to sodium carb water to crystallize?

check the cake extraction from spiceman, it works on this idea of making a freebased mimosa dry cake, pulling with some kind of alcohol and then evapping. But it will be very impure, and adding to sodium carb water wont make it crystallize because it will be already in freebase form. Maybe if you redissolve it in FASW and then add sodium carb saturated solution it could work. But this also brings me to:

This is just their opinion but the entities are of the understanding that the final result retains the energies of whatever chems were used in the process of making it. Even if it is fully washed and chemical analysis shows no traces, it still had to go through the process of being in that harsh environment to achieve the final result.

Ok I understand each one is free to have their opinion but:

Why is lye "harsh" ? Its just sodium and hydroxide ions. A lot of the common food you will eat can have come in contact with that too

Also what makes IPA any less harsh? It isnt a 'natural' solvent either, it involved a chemical synthesis to make it, which can have used chemicals such as sulfuric acid and also propene which comes from fossil fuels usually...

Maybe its rather your subjective ideas about it that is affecting the experience and not something objective about the chemical?

He doesn't like to have to wear goggles, gloves, solvent mask to protect face, etc.. if he doesn't have to.

I understand if you preffer a process where these risks are not there but, its just safety precautions, just like you wear seatbelt when driving a car and stop on redlights, or why you use shoes when walking on the streets or why electric sockets arent exposed metals to the outside but rather to the inside, whatever else. It doesnt necessarily make the whole thing bad, each thing we do in life has risks and we will measure whatever we feel is necessary and consider the risks and adapt to it, right?

Please dont take this all as an offense, Im just questioning because I feel its important to put our beliefs to test and to use other's feedback to make our ideas as reasonable as possible, but you should do exactly what you feel is right for you. Personally im all for finding teks that use the safest chemicals and I dont extract with petrochems for a long time, but I definitely dont think that objectively it makes the dmt worse if you used lye or something like this, as long as you make sure to follow safety precautions and clean up so that there arent traces of the chems. Lye is commonly used in a lot of food things, its just about being the right quantity and so on. But thats also just my opinion on the whole thing

He is also concerned a bit about it being in the final product.

What about the warm water wash?