What do you think of the Santo Daime church?

[teotenakeltje]

Wonderfull evening to all of you!

I'm kind off curious how the members here think about the Santo Daime church.

I'm seriously considering to participate in a ceremony in Amsterdam, somewhere next year.

But doing the ritual with a bunch of people, in white costumes, singing portuguese hymns they maybe don't even understand, doing a silly litlle dance and sitting on hard uncomfortable chairs under bright church lights? I'm not sur frankly....

Christian Rätsch for instance says that you can't integrate ayahuasca in a church like context, but that it should be done in a shamanic kind of way.

I'm not sure about this though, since there are so many different types of ceremonies held by different shamans in South America, meaning that there is no standard ritual for ayahuasca.

I think the church is a good opportunity to drink in a protected setting, with experienced people. I really do not want to try this by myself at home...

So what's your view? I'd also like to hear from experienced drinkers (that maybe have experienced Santo Daime) what they think about this.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[actualfactual]

I don't knock anyone's religion, but it's not something I'd be interested in participating in.

To each their own.

You should use this medicine in a way that feels natural to *you*. There is no right and wrong way to use ayahuasca.

 

[Xt]

Not much to say other then it seems to me a combination of one thing i feel fondly of and another i feel not so fond off.
Not my cup of tea.

 

[soulfood]

I'd rather do coke with a Rabbi.

 

[Mindlusion]

I'd rather do coke with a Rabbi.

hahaha

 

[pau]

thanks to our comrades at Erowid, we have this very recent writeup of aya done the traditional way:
Ayahuasca - Erowid Exp - 'Alive Again'

To each his own?

 

[endlessness]

I dont think christian raetsch has the right to say what other people can and cant do with their own subjective experiences.

Im critical of daime from having first hand experiences with them and other kinds of rituals and settings, but I think each person has their own way and we have to respect. Here's what I said in another thread:

hope it helps give a bit more idea. If there's any question you want to ask, feel free

 

[obliguhl]

I agree with endlesness. While im not very interested in participating, it certainly is a unique way of dealing with ayahuasca. Perhaps santo daime members can share their views.

Oh, and i think they're on the frontline, fighting for the freedom of the brew. Thatz is nice.

 

[picatris]

Ok we've read opinions of people who have not participate and do not know what it is, here's a, necessarily biased, opinion of a church "member". In the first place let me tell you that I do consider myself a church member but I'm not "fardado", which means someone with a uniform, that is someone that has a larger responsibility and commitment to the church. I have not yet decided to take that step for many reasons, one being of my family (wife that is) not being supportive of the Santo Daime...

That being said, I LOVE the church. I love the Daime, I love the hymns, I love the people. I had within the church the most beautiful experiences of my life, and it's not just because I'm taking Ayahuasca. I've had Ayahuasca many times on my own, made my own decoctions, and my own rituals, took much higher and stronger dosages,and it does not matter how much I try, it's never the same thing. Actually I still struggle with DMT, on whatever ROA, to be a spiritual substance, as on my own it's not easy. I have had much stronger spiritual experiences with 5-MeO-DMT, 4-Aco-DMT, and even JWH-018(!). Yet nothing compares to a Santo Daime Ritual. If there ever was a Gnostic Church, that's the one. You feel Gnosis coming from everywhere. During the ritual we are dancing facing the Black Abyss of the Soul, to which the Daime opened its doors. And we dance fearlessly undaunted for hours and hours. We share that same feeling of victury and bliss and it is beauty everywhere. It is just unbelievable.

The hymns are deceptive in their apparent simplicity, for they show an unbelievable rich symbolism. Something capable of shaking the foundations of the regions from which our own takes it own images. I am very fortunate to be in a group with an outstanding Madrinha. She is an old soul and her presence is enough to transport us to another dimension.

It is my firm conviction that the real Religion of the Forest, if it ever existed, is right now embodied in the Santo Daime Doctrine. Mestre Irineu and Padrinho Sebastiao were inheritors of a dying world, the Indian Shamanic Religion, and made it happen for us in the "so called" modern world. I've heard horror stories of the "Ayahuasca tourism" where people go to unholy places meeting with so-called shamans, that in reality worship only the almighty dollar, and after the ceremonies, go to their flats and turn on their TV sets drinking budweiser...

I said it is a biased opinion, but at least I've been there and KNOW what I'm talking about. Of course it may not be your cup of tea, but it is so to many!

 

[Electric.Sight]

Associating Christianity with Ayahuasca is probably a really good thing as far as the public eye is concerned. It's being written in stone that Ayahuasca is more than some drug to get high from because of these churches. Similar to Peyote's exemption for Native churches in the US, and it's complete exemption in Canada. So for this I believe these churches deserve respect.

As far as actually attending; I can't see myself getting much from it. I'm not sure I'd enjoy the traditional shaman method either. Traditions change and evolve for a reason, what worked then may not be best now. I would consider the shaman method to get a feel for history, culture and to connect through experience to our ancestors.
However I'd still prefer my own methods to all of the above, I feel being in a church would really restrict from that.

 

[Ice House]

I would love to attend a service or work. I would love to experience it to see what its all about. I have read allot about it, I would like to experience it.

I couldnt judge DMT soley on what I read about it, I needed to experience it in order to really understand what its about.

Unfortunately I dont know anyone connected. I dont even think they have a church near me. Hmmm or maybe they do. I hope some day I get lucky and am invited to attend. My Portugese is decent that might help with the singing of the hymns.

Its on my to do list in life.

 

[endlessness]

picatris, why do you say that the indigenous culture is a dying world? There's still plenty of indigenous ayahuasca knowledge, and ayahuasca native knowledge isnt only iquitos-style mainstream cultures...

Btw, good that you have found a good madrinha and group. Did you participate in other groups too? I've found that the overall atmosphere can change a lot depending on the padrinhos or madrinhas and the people participating, fardados or not.

Electric.Sight, the methods of ayahuasca ingestion didnt 'evolve', there are just different branches but they have all evolved in their own way. I understand if you dont feel the traditional way can be for you but I guess one cant really know until one has tried it. But if you dont feel like trying in another way, by all means follow your intuition.

Personally I'll never think one substitutes the other. I've had some of the most amazing moments of my life with indigenous ceremonies, but same for my own lonely journeys. Both have a definite place in my heart. I dont know if I'll ever participate in a daime ritual again, but I wouldnt change anything in my past, im glad I've been there and found that its not my way, and I respect those that feel its a good way for them. As long as they arent claiming to be the owners of the Right Path

 

[Electric.Sight]

endlessness I am speaking of traditions in general, imo they evolve along with culture. Also when I say evolve I do not mean to improve, but to change. I would consider visiting a shaman for the cultural learning experience, but spiritually I feel there would be a conflict of interests which would put up barriers rather than knock them down (Moreso with Santo church than a shaman).
Like you said though no one can know for sure without experiencing it themselves. Maybe I should try it before forming pre-conceived notions.

 

[endlessness]

So you are saying that the indigenous tribes would be representing an 'old' way while psychonautic exploration would be the new way, evolved as we evolved, yes? I understand, I just think that even the indigenous knowledge has evolved a lot over time. Its not like it was once found and continued the exact same way. There was a lot of contact with other tribes and different experiences over the time, dynamic adapting to their lives and to all their experience. Also the contact with westerners lately (which is often negative but not always).

What I mean is, even though I understand that on one hand it might feel very external to one's culture and era, but one gets in contact with something beyond the intellectual 'tastes' us modern people might have, and reaches one's heart. Not to make it sound cheesy, but there is really this ineffable experience that one can go through in one of these rituals lead by some special person, and for this experience you dont need to believe in spirits or whatever, you just are. There is a shared connection that is hard to describe, but it's a very learning and humbling experience.

Again, I dont think it substitutes a modern psychonautic exploration, and I neither have a romantic idealized view about shamans or established ayahuasca rituals, but I would say its worth the experience if you ever have the chance and its a good setting

 

[picatris]

Hi endlessness,

picatris, why do you say that the indigenous culture is a dying world? There's still plenty of indigenous ayahuasca knowledge, and ayahuasca native knowledge isnt only iquitos-style mainstream cultures...

Unfortunately I do not see a bright future for the authentic currents that I know still exist. This is my opinion of course, but eventually our western culture will submerge whatever is left good from the amazonian cults. It has done so everywhere, and I'm truly pessimistic on this issue. They will perhaps survive as the Native American Indians, scattered and loose. Ayahuasca will perhaps become as restricted as peyote, for the religious use of the remaining few, which will be seen increasingly as freaks. It's a grim future, but I do not see an escape route as of today.

[Sorry on all this ranting, perhaps after the Solstice I will become a little more optimistic and be able to smile a bit more by seeing things in another perspective!]

 

[Electric.Sight]

Thank you endlessness, I think a seed was just planted in my mind for a future traditional ceremony to see what it's all about. Not anytime soon but if/when the time is right and the choice is available.

 

[teotenakeltje]

Thanks endlessness and picatris...good to hear from people with first hand experience. IMHO i can not judge the SD church without having tried it.
Amsterdam is only 3 hours driving from where i live, so i think it is worth the shot.
What holds me back the most is to drink with lots of other people, because i prefer taking psychedelics on my own, or with close friends.
I read that the SD is all about the collective ritual, and not really about the individuals....
that explains why there are helpers always checking that everyone is participating in a way that is supportive to the ritual.

Endlessness: don't you think it can be harmfull to force people to do something they don't want during an ayahuasca ceremony, like refusing that they lie down when they want to? Is it realy like that during a SD ritual? Or does it really depend on the church?

Picatris: can you tell me where you participate? is it in the Netherlands?

thanks for the feedback guys

 

[picatris]

Picatris: can you tell me where you participate? is it in the Netherlands?

Nope. As of right now I'm fortunate to be able to attend sessions in Portugal, not far from its capital, Lisbon

EDIT: I can also the question you ask to enddlessness. In all sessions one attends to, if you do not feel like participating in the middle of the session you can lie down in a bed and stay there up to the end of the ritual. It has happened to different people in every session I've been. Occasionally people even sleep! However people are encouraged to take part of the ritual, it's the best way to get the most out of it. This encouragement is positive and if you really don't feel like it you do not have to do it. I've seen occasional members sit on their chairs for most of the session with their arms stretched and eyes closed in pure contemplation of the Divine, without singing (or dancing, when that is the case) and people just leave them there. This is an exception though.

What you can't do is to leave the session in the middle of it. many times you have to drive to return home, and even if you believe you can do it, it really not up to you to decide, as you generally are not within your full senses. This makes sense and it's for your protection, of others and of the church.

 

[SKA]

I have participated in a Santo Daime ceremony some 2 years ago.
It was in The Hague, one of the 2 locations of the 2 Dutch Santo Daime churches.

I can honoustly say that these people perform a very powerfull, cleansing ritual with most pure intentions behind it.
From my experience there I would say these people REALLY know what they're doing. Very grounded, warm and caring.

The price for participation in a Ritual is 30 euros, which is understandable since they grow & harvest their own P.Viridis leaves and B.Caapi vines in Brazil
and then have it shipped to their various international churches. Also they are in an everlasting lawsuit against the states that seek to opress any form of Entheogenesis.


I have heard of strange new-age cults doing Ayahuasca rituals that sound like frauds, people that have no idea what they're really doing and enshrine Ayahuasca in some kind of rediculous fairytale context. These meetings look more like LARP meetings and often the participation price is 60 euros or more. Way to much.
To this I would say NO. Loud and clear.

I had a very insightfull, healing/cleansing experience with Ayahuasca in that Santo Daime ceremony some 2 years ago.
It's healing/cleansing is still unfolding now and I have found alot of, ever deepening, inner peace since.

 

[teotenakeltje]

Thanks for your accurate answer picatris!
I would attend one of the Amsterdam churches or The Hague, since they are both approx at the same distance of my home. Thanks for your reply SKA!! appreciate it...

What about the potency of the brew? you could assume that the brews aren't that strong if they can still dance and sing, or am i wrong there? Is it all about practice?