What do you think of the Santo Daime church?

[jmaxton]

First off, let me say that I hope this doesn't offend anyone- that's absolutely not my intention. Religion can be a touchy subject and I mean this in the most respectful way possible.

I think Electric.Sight alluded to the answer, but is Santo Daime a Christian sect? I was always under the impression it was a kind of Ancient Knowledge/Christianity hybrid and that's what personally turns me off to it. Not to say that all Christianity is necessarily bad, but its original messages have been perverted in so many terrible ways toward very non-Christian ends that I have a real hard time aligning myself with any of its organized branches. Humans have been proven to be quite prone to boondoggling at the hands of religious bait-and-switch tactics, so I'd hate to see some fringe branch of Christianity co-opting the use of Ayahasca as a means of indoctrination. Yes, I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to organized religion...

So anyway, I was actually hoping that someone with first-hand experience could shed light (pun intended ) on the Christianity-based aspects of SD ceremonies, if they exist, and to what extent they play a part. Are there facets to the Santo Daime rituals that would traditionally be considered non-Christian, apart from the ingestion of Ayahuasca? Thanks in advance for educating me!

-JM

 

[teotenakeltje]

well i personnaly wouldn't label the SD as a sect, since they do not really try to 'convert' people. Everybody is free to contact them and join, but they won't ask you. Maybe it's different when you happen to know some members, but that's not my case.
As for as the non-christian part: i think their religion is more like a mix between christian, brazilian indiginous and african elements.

 

[jmaxton]

Thanks for your response, teotenakeltje! I don't mean to hijack your thread.

well i personnaly wouldn't label the SD as a sect, since they do not really try to 'convert' people. ...

To be clear, I didn't mean to use the word sect disparagingly. I just meant it as a way to distinguish between the different 'branches' of religions.

 

[endlessness]

Nope. As of right now I'm fortunate to be able to attend sessions in Portugal, not far from its capital, Lisbon

EDIT: I can also the question you ask to enddlessness. In all sessions one attends to, if you do not feel like participating in the middle of the session you can lie down in a bed and stay there up to the end of the ritual. It has happened to different people in every session I've been. Occasionally people even sleep! However people are encouraged to take part of the ritual, it's the best way to get the most out of it. This encouragement is positive and if you really don't feel like it you do not have to do it. I've seen occasional members sit on their chairs for most of the session with their arms stretched and eyes closed in pure contemplation of the Divine, without singing (or dancing, when that is the case) and people just leave them there. This is an exception though.

What you can't do is to leave the session in the middle of it. many times you have to drive to return home, and even if you believe you can do it, it really not up to you to decide, as you generally are not within your full senses. This makes sense and it's for your protection, of others and of the church.

Hmm, I think this is a good example of how different it can be from church to church. Be glad that you are participating in a branch that is open enough like this, where people can sleep or lie down or whatever else. I've been in places where it was similar but I've also been in a main church where they were really really strict, where if you have your arms crossed a 'fiscal' will come and tell you you cant, or if you stand up and arent exactly like everybdy else (even if youre not disrupting anybody), someone is quickly coming to call your attention. So if you guys are gonna go to a daime church for first time, I would recommend asking about this, how 'free' you are.

I mean, its understandable that they dont want everybody dispersing and doing crazy stuff disrupting the ceremony, and of course they dont want people to run away while under the influence and have an accident, but it often happens that people will start taking the rules too strictly and not understanding that they are actually there for a reason and not just to follow blindly, and use arbitrary arguments like "oh you're disrupting the 'chain', your breaking the 'energy'".

What about the potency of the brew? you could assume that the brews aren't that strong if they can still dance and sing, or am i wrong there? Is it all about practice?

I never participated in a daime ceremony outside of Brazil so I dont know if this changes because of availability (and for those with daime experience in USA/europe/elsewhere, please do give your input), but brew potency isnt too much of an issue. They usually have a standard brew of which a 'dose' is a small glass, I would guess something around 50 ml maybe, but they serve it 3 times during the ceremony, so you're most likely not gonna have a problem with too-weak brew because you can just take again.

If one dose already is enough for you, you dont need to take the other doses. In certain ceremonies or special dates they may make a stronger brew, but for these dates usually are only experienced people, or they will probably give you less of it. I have also drank once the 'mel', or 'honey', which is very concentrated, you only need a tiny sip. With that being said, I must comment that I dont think its such a simple dose-effect relationship. I sometimes have had very strong effects from drinking little, and sometimes I didnt have amazing effects even drinking lots, but in the long run I must say I always got exactly what I needed

Regarding dancing, not all ceremonies are dancing. The dancing ones are the 'bailados', but there's also the 'concentration', which you basically just sit down the whole ceremony, often in silence, alternated with moments of singing. But even in the ones that are dancing, its still possible to be really strongly under the influence but be able to dance. It becomes somehow automatic, natural. Personally I preffered the 'concentration' ceremonies though.

You dont have to sing either, and I guess if you dont speak portuguese and they are singing in portuguese it will be hard to make sense, let alone sing together. But again, you can be really under the influence but be able to sing perfectly. Its interesting how the voice changes the tone somehow, its wonderful to sing on aya (or any psychedelics imo, I also love taking psychedelics by myself and sing/play guitar).

First off, let me say that I hope this doesn't offend anyone- that's absolutely not my intention. Religion can be a touchy subject and I mean this in the most respectful way possible.

I think Electric.Sight alluded to the answer, but is Santo Daime a Christian sect? I was always under the impression it was a kind of Ancient Knowledge/Christianity hybrid and that's what personally turns me off to it. Not to say that all Christianity is necessarily bad, but its original messages have been perverted in so many terrible ways toward very non-Christian ends that I have a real hard time aligning myself with any of its organized branches. Humans have been proven to be quite prone to boondoggling at the hands of religious bait-and-switch tactics, so I'd hate to see some fringe branch of Christianity co-opting the use of Ayahasca as a means of indoctrination. Yes, I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to organized religion...

So anyway, I was actually hoping that someone with first-hand experience could shed light (pun intended ) on the Christianity-based aspects of SD ceremonies, if they exist, and to what extent they play a part. Are there facets to the Santo Daime rituals that would traditionally be considered non-Christian, apart from the ingestion of Ayahuasca? Thanks in advance for educating me!

-JM

Daime is a somehow syncretic religion, it mixes a lot of christianity, indigenous knowledge, as well as esoteric western knowledge. There's a lot of symbolism in the songs and in the actual objects put in the altar or around the daime churches. Im also very critical of organized religion, and I am critical of daime as I mentioned before, but specifically regarding christianity I think its not really one of their problems. I think they try to rather take the spirit of christianity and symbolism, not really enforcing rules or 'preaching'. For example there is some kind of equivalent to Jesus, called Juramidan, which in many songs is mentioned. But (at least thats how I take it), its not meant to be a specific person but a somehow archetypical character that can serve as inspiration.

And yeah there's def lots of non-christian aspects. I mean, the ceremonies arent about one person preaching in front of you about the rules, its all music and your inner experience.

 

[picatris]

endlessness,

you sum up my answers perfectly, both in spirit and in describing the ceremony!

Just 2 more things. About the behaviour within ritual. Even in the Portuguese sessions there is a code of conduct. People are encouraged to stay in line and do as the others, but they are so encouraged very kindly. If someone is so "out there" that is totally alien to the ceremony, someone will gently correct him. If it is useless, s/he is encouraged to either leave the circle for resting a bit or they will try to put them in their place do they do not disturb others. It is always a very peaceful process. As a personal note I believe I now understand why these formalities are kept. It is not because of tradition or a commandment or whatever. It has to do with the Daime and one's own experience of it, that is better conveyed if the geometry and the energies are properly maintained.

Finally about the potency of the Tea. It is has you said, sometimes it is not so strong, others it is, and the strength of the drink is adequate for the ritual at hand. One thing I'd like to add is the refills. The 2nd (and occasionally 3rd) doses are the strongest. Your MAO system is still inhibited and when you take the 2nd dose, is when things really happen, and the Religious and Gnostic Experience blooms.

[as I'm talking about this I'm missing it - unfortunately I could not attend the December Festival! ]

 

[Ayawasqero]

Bunch of cool hip guys and gals. All of them. Peace.

 

[teotenakeltje]

thank you so much for all the valuable information guys..great!

I actually wrote to the SD in Amsterdam and they said that it's advisable to start with a concentration ceremony or a cura. I definatly will ask them how 'free' you are during a ceremony,good idea endlessness.

I just wanted to add that i think that the SD is a good way to gather experience with the brew, if you don't feel like drinking it alone. I have the impression that everyone's welcome without having to join. So you can just keep your own convictions.

But is it that easy to just continue to believe what you did after such a strong experience as ayahuasca? Could it be that, under the influence one automaticaly integrates parts the SD doctrine in his sub-conscience?

 

[endlessness]

As a personal note I believe I now understand why these formalities are kept. It is not because of tradition or a commandment or whatever. It has to do with the Daime and one's own experience of it, that is better conveyed if the geometry and the energies are properly maintained.

I completely respect your opinion on this, but I must say I disagree.. While I understand where you are coming from, I do not think the rules established by Daime necessarily make the experience better in any way. In the indigenous rituals that I've participated in, there was plenty more freedom (no specificity regarding body position, no need to separate men and women, etc) and I've had some of the most incredible transformative experiences ever, and I know it was the same for the people who were together with me. The freedom didnt interfere in any way, everybody was very respectful and reasonable and the shaman 'centered' all the energies very well (whatever that means), so there was no need for all sorts of rules to make it work.

So again, while I understand where this argument comes from and I think its important to respect the religion if you are taking a part in their ritual, I dont think that objectively the way they organize is in any way better than any other way. Each one to his own, though, I hope you have a wonderful experience when you participate with them

Finally about the potency of the Tea. It is has you said, sometimes it is not so strong, others it is, and the strength of the drink is adequate for the ritual at hand. One thing I'd like to add is the refills. The 2nd (and occasionally 3rd) doses are the strongest. Your MAO system is still inhibited and when you take the 2nd dose, is when things really happen, and the Religious and Gnostic Experience blooms.

Oh yeah thats definitely true! The first dose it can happen that one doesnt feel too much, but be careful being too impatient! The second dose will significantly increase the effects. I remember first time I went to daime, in my 'hubris' and impatience, I took the first dose and didnt feel anything so when time for second dose came, I took two doses instead of one, and oh boy did I get a big big hyperspacial slap for that

But is it that easy to just continue to believe what you did after such a strong experience as ayahuasca? Could it be that, under the influence one automaticaly integrates parts the SD doctrine in his sub-conscience?

Thats actually a very good question, and its one that I dont really have an answer for.. I would like to know what others who participated in Daime ceremonies think.

Here's what comes to my mind: Any psychedelic experience will open up your consciousness to the environment around you. Daime is an established religion for many decades, so they have developed their rituals and refined their techniques in several ways. Also, there have been some very special people who contributed to their knowledge and to their songs, so you will 'feel' that, you will hear the truths being sang (if you understand...?). Maybe this will impact you, with all the order that they have and how it all seems to flow very well.

I can totally understand that one might feel like "omg, this is it! they really got it!". And of course the more you show you are understanding and appreciating what they do, the more the community will open up to you. They have a very strong community, which is another plus, because the support from others can be really helpful with the integration and all. So with all this in mind, I think I can imagine someone really "converting" to it.

I can only say what happened with me though. You ask if it will change what you believe, but what do you believe in?

The thing with me, is that I dont 'believe' in things. I dont believe that there are spirits that you meet when you take ayahuasca, for example (but neither I believe that they dont exist). I just maintain an open perspective and think that independently of what model you use to explain, it is a very special experience that I can use for my own personal growth and consequently to help others.

Also, I have had my own experiences in other settings and dont think that objectively one is better than the other. I know I can have a very enlightening experience with purified dmt, for example, while that would most likely be frowned upon in Daime (at least officially). Same with lsd or whatever. But who is anybody to tell me whats right or wrong, if im being healthy and balanced and am not hurting anybody, right?

I think all religions are about the same thing, in the end, about these deep experiences and about developing one's inner self and helping the world. So I personally extract (pun not intended ) what I feel is valuable from all of the religions and incorporate in my own life, without having to follow any dogmas or rules, rather just following my own conscience. So in this sense I just cant get 'converted' because I wont 'believe' what others believe, I will always be me, with my critical thinking, with my skeptic side, etc...

Sorry I couldnt give a 'yes' or 'no' answer, I hope what I wrote somehow helps though

 

[OnthePath]

I've attended works over the last year with my wife. I must say that at least as far as our local group is concerned these are some of the nicest well grounded people that are in the front lines. What they are doing is truly helpful in the larger picture.

While not necessarily my cup of tea I had great experiences every time I have attended. The whole ceremony is very well grounded and will keep you from flying off the rails sort of speak. Lying down if necessary is encouraged but so is partaking in all of the singing and occasionally, dancing (fairly simple two steps - no running around). The only rules that are really important is to not disturb by either running around on your own or speaking out of context, and leaving before the ceremony is over.

The Daime itself in potency can vary quite a bit - it is what the chacruna has to offer I believe. Enough will be served usually however.

There is something to be said for the religious approach and if you are not at all religious/spiritual then don't bother going. For myself I prefer a more cozy atmosphere for my travels, with beers, music and friends usually but this is something else. My wife has found great benefit from attending. I can't say anything bad about the SD and only good.

I would however not enjoy being poked and prodded or otherwise physically adjusted (unless I can't look after myself :roll: ) by anyone as that just gets on my nerves no matter what I'm doing. If this were the case I probably would not go back. Prosthelytizing is a big no no so you can remove that ugly aspect of religion from SD which really does make a big difference. The world needs more people like this as far as religion goes. Getting into contact with yourself and the spirit world as opposed to looking for faults in everyone else is a big move forward (or backward) for organized religions.

Again this is coming from someone who enjoys hard edged music and a few pints with my journeys and I felt completley comfortable with the SD. If anythning I got a little bored after several hours - this was the drawback for me. Although the sense of peace and comradery afterwards was tangible.

I say go for it with a truly open mind/heart and you'll have safe and profitable journeys...Then the next day have a few drinks and blast off while integrating the experience .

 

[teotenakeltje]

endlessness, what you wrote is very helpfull...i mean it was a rather rethorical question you know so i do appreciate that you answered it!
You too OnthePath..thanks a lot. This forum rocks!

 

[picatris]

As a personal note I believe I now understand why these formalities are kept. It is not because of tradition or a commandment or whatever. It has to do with the Daime and one's own experience of it, that is better conveyed if the geometry and the energies are properly maintained.

I completely respect your opinion on this, but I must say I disagree.. While I understand where you are coming from, I do not think the rules established by Daime necessarily make the experience better in any way. In the indigenous rituals that I've participated in, there was plenty more freedom (no specificity regarding body position, no need to separate men and women, etc) and I've had some of the most incredible transformative experiences ever, and I know it was the same for the people who were together with me. The freedom didnt interfere in any way, everybody was very respectful and reasonable and the shaman 'centered' all the energies very well (whatever that means), so there was no need for all sorts of rules to make it work.

You are absolutely right. I expressed myself poorly. My defense of the geometry and the formalities within a SD ritual is because of the ritual and the Santo Daime religion, as it expresses itself and how it draws energies and channels it within the ceremony. I can totally understand that this is unnecessary in a different context, namely within indigenous rituals. And it is my firm conviction (although I have not any first hand experience) that a capable shaman is able to perform a powerful ritual without any formalities whatsoever!

 

[SKA]

Thanks for your accurate answer picatris!
I would attend one of the Amsterdam churches or The Hague, since they are both approx at the same distance of my home. Thanks for your reply SKA!! appreciate it...

What about the potency of the brew? you could assume that the brews aren't that strong if they can still dance and sing, or am i wrong there? Is it all about practice?

You're welcome.
I can honoustly say that whatever way Santo Daime brews their Ayahuasca; It is very potent.
Allthough I have no experience with other ayahuasca or anahuasca brews I cannot compair it's potency with anything else, but;
In this ceremony I was given 2 doses of 1 shotglass each. The kind of shot glass used for strong liquors and strong teas; I estimate about 500 MiliLiters.
First I received one +/- 500 ml glass of ayahuasca ( brewed from B. Caapi & P. Viridis ) and enter a very deep entheogenesis while chanting and meditating.
Then, about 2 hours later, I received another +/- 500 ml shotglass of Ayahuasca. This deepened and prolongued the allready powerfull experience.

For me it was a powerfull purge, healing and revitalisation, yet I was perfectly able to stand, sit or dance(had I wanted to)
The only "immobile" and rather Incapacitated part of the experience was the purging; the puking itself. Which lasted no more than perhaps 8 minutes.

My friend, sitting next to me, was clearly more blown away and awestruck then me. Some people were so overpowered by the exsperience that they had to lay down.
Others were dancing around and had no purging at all. Yet we, all men and women in the ceremony, all took exactly the same dose.

It could very well be that the Practice has ALOT to do with it. I've heard of friends who brewed Anahuasca( Mimosa Hostilis + Banistereopsis Caapi tea) that SHOULD have sent them millions of lightyears across the universe, but failed to produce a powerfull, meaningfull experience. The chanting around a central focal point; a table, and the meditation and company of so much likeminded people really did direct the power in that experience. I am very certain that the songs they chant and play, called Hinarios(hymns), are SO much more than just catchy melodies.

 

[picatris]

Hi SKA!

You're welcome.
I can honoustly say that whatever way Santo Daime brews their Ayahuasca; It is very potent.
Allthough I have no experience with other ayahuasca or anahuasca brews I cannot compair it's potency with anything else, but;
In this ceremony I was given 2 doses of 1 shotglass each. The kind of shot glass used for strong liquors and strong teas; I estimate about 500 MiliLiters.
(...)

before anyone jumps into conclusions, 500 ml is one half liter You mean naturally 50 ml, although I would go to probably for 20-30 ml which is the usual dose, I would guess in most SD churches. It can be as strong as the strongest Ayahuasca you've ever had!

 

[Dwhitty76]

Hey all.

I just got back to the U.S. from a 3 month trip to brazil with Santo Daime. I would love to help shed a little light to people who have questions about the religion, and our doctrine.

My participation as a member of the church is ironic, as i was pretty much anti-organized religion before i met the daime. One thing i can say about how the "daime works" (ceremonies) differ from other ayahuasca ceremonies that i have attended, is that the daime works require 100% of me being present within the collective energy, or current. In a daime work i am one spoke an a wheel, or a link in the chain, and if i can give myself completely to the experience, it opens up the astral unlike anything i've ever experienced in order for me to learn lessons in order to make myself more beneficial to my brothers and sisters, and just an all round better person ( in my opinion).

There are many, many facets to this religion, and it's easy to criticize it because it is a religion. Here is a good documentary that touches upon some good points. I hope you guys enjoy. Peace

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6845282007496115012#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6845282007496115012#docid=6979428637862001643

 

[teotenakeltje]

Thanks for posting those links Dwhitty76....i found the documentary very informative and inspiring

 

[sauroman1]

Nope. As of right now I'm fortunate to be able to attend sessions in Portugal, not far from its capital, Lisbon

Could you tell me more about place where you attended sessions near Lisbon? In Sintra? I'm lucky to be here and hope to attend ayahuasca ceremonies during my study period out here.