What is poison?

[jbark]

not poison by any useable or practical definition.

Cheers,

JBArk

Key words. Thanks JBark

Sorry brokenChild but I think this crowd would rather not discuss your absolutist beliefs and claim that 7g of mushrooms almost killed you

And here I was thinking brokenChild was genuinely thanking me. To be clear (as if it isn't!) , "useable or practical" means that anyone defining it as poison is in error from the point of view of pragmatism and from within the purview of any meaningful definition. So calling it poison is both meaningless and wrong. I can find a few other ways of writing it if it still isn't clear. 8)

JBArk

 

[jbark]

“All things are poisons, for there is nothing without poisonous qualities. It is only the dose which makes a thing poison.”


― Paracelsus

Paracelsus was wrong.

If the poisonous quality of a substance is expressed as a sufficient quantity ("dose" ), then when there is an insufficient quantity there is by definition not "sufficient quantity" present and thus no poison. So a thing is not a poison, as he states in the first premise, but becomes one when a sufficient quantity is present, asserted in the second premise. The second premise contradicts the first and is unnecessary. The second is true if it stands alone. Just squabbling with the greats again.

JBArk

 

[adam]

Whether something is poison or medicine depends on how and when you use it. Your intentions and awareness of the situation within which you are taking the substance. For example scorpion venom can be a lethal poison, it can also be used as a medicine to boost the immune system.

Mushrooms can be used as medicine if you are careful and cautious and work you way up with dosing. Doing something like eating 7g of mushrooms can be poison probably more psychologically then physically, especially if you haven't taken the time to work up to such a heroic dose.

Nothing is purely medicine or purely poison, rather I believe these qualities become realities based on how we use them, this includes understanding your sensitivity to said substances so you know how to dose them properly, thus not making them poisonous.

 

[brokenChild]

^^true story, tho some things are pure poisons. Cigarettes, for example. Sure nicotine may have some useful medical stimulatory application somewhere, but inhalation of tobacco smoke is purely poisoning to the entire body

I feel like the truer statement, when it comes to medicine and poison, is that all medicines are poisons also, just that some medicines counteract the effects of other greater poisons, and so are medical in their application.

If you take prescription drugs past the immediate need, they will be cumulatively toxic to the body. A little bit generally doesn't hurt, since a little bit of toxin can be easily removed. In the same way I do feel that all drugs on the whole, are subtle poisons, but a lot of them are simply not so to any significant degree when used in appropriate measure

 

[universecannon]

adam, psychological dangers/risks from 7g are completely different than something being literally poisonous. You are using poison in a more metaphorical way, which is completely different from the standard definition of poison that we are all talking about here. I know what you are saying here, but I don't think it does us any good to relate the two in that way.

brokenChild, i'd rather not get into it again because so far its been basically impossible to have any kind of productive or meaningful two-way dialog with you.

 

[jbark]

^^true story, tho some things are pure poisons. Cigarettes, for example. Sure nicotine may have some useful medical stimulatory application somewhere, but inhalation of tobacco smoke is purely poisoning to the entire body

I feel like the truer statement, when it comes to medicine and poison, is that all medicines are poisons also, just that some medicines counteract the effects of other greater poisons, and so are medical in their application.

If you take prescription drugs past the immediate need, they will be cumulatively toxic to the body. A little bit generally doesn't hurt, since a little bit of toxin can be easily removed. In the same way I do feel that all drugs on the whole, are subtle poisons, but a lot of them are simply not so to any significant degree when used in appropriate measure

I have to agree with universecannon here (or at least what I understand he is inferring). Every one of your statements is rife with misinformation and dangerous (and often erroneous) generalization. Please research, or at the very least qualify your statements so they appear as opinion and not indisputable fact from authority.

Cheers,

JBArk

 

[brokenChild]

I don't need research, I know it for a fact from 14 years of all kinds of drug use; pharmaceutical (pills, pain medication, anabolics), "natural" i.e. marijuana, mushrooms, opium, tobacco.

So, you can refer to books if you'd like, but I know the direct effect that it's had on my body, so I don't need to "look in a book" to varify. If you see something wrong with my statements, and would like to dispute it, by all means do. I'm ALWAYS open to constructive criticism and also capable of making mistakes

and just FYI, a psychological poison is still a poison. It has nothing to do with your dictionary definitions, it has everything to do with it's impact on your total system. Something can be physically damaging, something else can be damaging to the psyche, if the nature of the thing consistently contributes damage, it's a poison. The truth of the matter tho is that most medicines do both to varying degrees.

Pharmaceutical medications for example effect lipid profiles (contribute to liver toxins through hepatic breakdown, but they also have medicinal effects as well)

 

[jamie]

neither cannabis or the common psilocybes people grow and eat etc are poisons. 7 grams of cubensis is not poisonous.

 

[jbark]

I don't need research, I know it for a fact from 14 years of all kinds of drug use; pharmaceutical (pills, pain medication, anabolics), "natural" i.e. marijuana, mushrooms, opium, tobacco.

So, you can refer to books if you'd like, but I know the direct effect that it's had on my body, so I don't need to "look in a book" to varify. If you see something wrong with my statements, and would like to dispute it, by all means do. I'm ALWAYS open to constructive criticism and also capable of making mistakes

and just FYI, a psychological poison is still a poison. It has nothing to do with your dictionary definitions, it has everything to do with it's impact on your total system. Something can be physically damaging, something else can be damaging to the psyche, if the nature of the thing consistently contributes damage, it's a poison. The truth of the matter tho is that most medicines do both to varying degrees.

Pharmaceutical medications for example effect lipid profiles (contribute to liver toxins through hepatic breakdown, but they also have medicinal effects as well)

I repeat:

Every one of your statements is rife with misinformation and dangerous (and often erroneous) generalization. Please research, or at the very least qualify your statements so they appear as opinion and not indisputable fact from authority.


There is a low tolerance on this site to authoritative stances. You are parading anecdotal and personal experience as "fact", which is erroneous in and of itself. I'd just like to encourage you to call opinion opinion and to lay off the certainty. It does not encourage open and constructive debate, but rather polarizes everyone into camps.

JBArk

 

[jamie]

"and just FYI, a psychological poison is still a poison. It has nothing to do with your dictionary definitions, it has everything to do with it's impact on your total system. Something can be physically damaging, something else can be damaging to the psyche, if the nature of the thing consistently contributes damage, it's a poison. The truth of the matter tho is that most medicines do both to varying degrees."

The problem with that statement is that it just crumbles into ridiculousness when you consider that it implies that any experience is a poison. Even sex can be psychologically damaging if you are some guy who blows his load after like 8 humps every time you try.

This is like saying LSD causes flashbacks, without concidering that any experience with the possibility of trauma carries the possibility of flashbacks. Might as well just stay at home in bed.

 

[dreamer042]

@ brokenChild

You've been warned before about the preaching. You may want to review this section of the attitude as well:

Quality of information and discussion

If you post something as a fact, you have to be able to provide a reliable source for your argument. This depends contextually, but a peer-reviewed publication is an example of what could be a good source, and a random unknown website or what “someone said” could be an example of an unreliable source. If you state something as your opinion then please support that opinion with good reasoning. If you cannot do that then don't state your opinion at all since it's useless for others. This is not Facebook with like/dislike.

You are entitled to your opinions, but please state them as such.

 

[universecannon]

"I'm ALWAYS open to constructive criticism and also capable of making mistakes"

You've said this before, but as i think every single person who replied to your last thread would agree: this is not the case whatsoever.

"It has nothing to do with your dictionary definitions"

really ironic considering how in our last debate you championed the dictionary definition of mushrooms as being your proof that they are in fact illusory...LOL

your on a crusade to alert the forum that mushrooms are illusory and toxic- we get it man. But this place doesn't take kindly to preaching, especially when its absolutist, anecdotal, and based on completely illogical argument that ignore any evidence to the contrary.

 

[jamie]

hey people are full of all kinds of bullshit/projections/self fulfilling paradigms. Oh well. they can wallow in they're own conclusions. What is poison and illusion to one person obviously is not necessarily for another.

 

[jbark]

hey people are full of all kinds of bullshit/projections/self fulfilling paradigms. Oh well. they can wallow in they're own conclusions. What is poison and illusion to one person obviously is not necessarily for another.

Until it klls 'em!

(just lightening the tone a little )

 

[The Neural]

brokenChild, regardless of your name, past situation, pain, or what have you, you are not excused from being aggressive and dismissive of others in the manner that you were in your last post.

Tone your aggression and arrogance down please.

 

[brokenChild]

I repeat:

Every one of your statements is rife with misinformation and dangerous (and often erroneous) generalization. Please research, or at the very least qualify your statements so they appear as opinion and not indisputable fact from authority.


There is a low tolerance on this site to authoritative stances. You are parading anecdotal and personal experience as "fact", which is erroneous in and of itself. I'd just like to encourage you to call opinion opinion and to lay off the certainty. It does not encourage open and constructive debate, but rather polarizes everyone into camps.

JBArk

I see it, thanks for pointing it out

brokenChild, regardless of your name, past situation, pain, or what have you, you are not excused from being aggressive and dismissive of others in the manner that you were in your last post.

Tone your aggression and arrogance down please.

Ya I get it brother, just got caught up in own personal thought bubble

MUH BAD GUISE, will fix my own discombobulation, thanks all for the feedback

 

[brokenChild]

2 and a half years of military service; am actually physically nonviolent, but it seems like I certainly picked up some poor psychological habits and approaches from the wrong side of the track, hence the "militant" attitude, my bust ppl, will fix it. Just wrong conditioning, again wholehearted thanks to everyone for pointing it out

 

[brokenChild]

^^true story, tho some things are pure poisons. Cigarettes, for example. Sure nicotine may have some useful medical stimulatory application somewhere, but inhalation of tobacco smoke is purely poisoning to the entire body

I feel like the truer statement, when it comes to medicine and poison, is that all medicines are poisons also, just that some medicines counteract the effects of other greater poisons, and so are medical in their application.

If you take prescription drugs past the immediate need, they will be cumulatively toxic to the body. A little bit generally doesn't hurt, since a little bit of toxin can be easily removed. In the same way I do feel that all drugs on the whole, are subtle poisons, but a lot of them are simply not so to any significant degree when used in appropriate measure

Just to sort of fix this and put it in the proper light; this has been true to my experience with all of these substances;

even pot, in chronic use (both statement and pun intended) has been shown to lower fertility, at least in males, in the medical literature that I was presented. So even tho it has lots of medical applications in many scopes and areas, it has a minor negative impact. Again tho maybe I'm unclear in my information; or maybe there's certain strains that simply don't have that impact.

For the most part tho, every pharmaceutical medicine I've ever come across is damaging to some degree or another in extended use past the necessity of the immediate medical application (in other words, take it long enough and in high enough doses, it starts having destructive impact on health)

Hence the statement that most, if not all medicines are also subtle poisons. Even the same mushroom trip, in the right dose can be absolutely beneficial, but too much can most certainly be psychologically damaging. So ultimately it's just a matter of perspective. Hope that clears some of it up

 

[dreamer042]

even pot, in chronic use (both statement and pun intended) has been shown to lower fertility, at least in males, in the medical literature that I was presented.

Please reference your sources when you say things like this. It is customary on this forum to back up this kind of information with tangible evidence.

Btw, thank you for humbling your attitude and rephrasing your opinions and experiences as such. :thumb_up:

 

[brokenChild]

even pot, in chronic use (both statement and pun intended) has been shown to lower fertility, at least in males, in the medical literature that I was presented.

Please reference your sources when you say things like this. It is customary on this forum to back up this kind of information with tangible evidence.

Btw, thank you for humbling your attitude and rephrasing your opinions and experiences as such. :thumb_up:

Anabolic-androgenic steroids, marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamines, and opioid narcotics all negatively impact male fertility

The insults of illicit drug use on male fertility - PubMed

One-third of infertile couples may have a male factor present. Illicit drug use can be an important cause of male factor infertility and includes use of anabolic-androgenic steroids, marijuana, opioid narcotics, cocaine, and methamphetamines. The use of these illicit drugs is common in the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just one of many, many medical sources available through google.

By the way, thank you kindly for being patient enough to allow me to resolve my own personal shortcoming, and thanks for pointing it out. As mentioned before, am always open to constructive criticism, just sometimes still unaware of all the faults so if I cross a boundary it's generally unintentional, and appreciate the clarification