What it means to believe

[Bisy]

Isn't it great to believe and/or believe in something? Or even to feel like you've just become one piece of information closer to a final conclusion about something? I love the feeling, often becoming slightly overzealous and running a little faster than rationally practical..

Pursuing evidence to verify and confirm a new idea that would be pleasant to believe........
OOPS!!! Damn, there I go again, had myself almost convinced that everything supports my pleasant belief.

But then on the other hand, ive seen some confusing and complicated dilemmas through to a hidden truth by following a belief through a few obstacles exercising confirmation bias..

Are or aren't things as they seem? (Heres the rub) they are and they aren't, but they are ALWAYS neither. "Always" turns the statement into a belief, and the ability to discern truth becomes very weak, and the credibility of a declaration of truth unreliable.

If I BELIEVE heaven is a grassy field, and I have a genuine encounter with heaven, but it isn't a grassy field, I may dismiss the experience with disappointment..

OR, if the experience is much more pleasant than the grassy field, (12 beautiful virgins) then I might be ready to forget a lifetime of believing the grassy field idea.

So am I saying that believing is overrated? Absolutely not. If you dont believe then you are dead inside. Waiting to die and maybe hoping that everything will be fine..

If you dont believe, you cant pursue the belief. If you dont pursue the belief, you won't follow it to discover its not for you after all.

We must believe, but what we believe may or may not resonate with others, but as long as you believe, respect your self and others, and at least allow yourself to entertain others beliefs, its all good..

One way to know your belief structure is healthy is that it DOES change..

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I don't think we can have very well formulated beliefs about the things that you exist above our common level of existence. All revelations and visions are symbolic.

We can have hunches and by examining those hunches we can grow in intuition. Looking inside, questioning and honing your intuition can help you grow a faith. Many religious and philosophical beliefs mainly entertain curiosity, but the important ones are those which help you crystallize your values and provide a thread to follow in your everyday decisions.

 

[Bisy]

I don't think we can have very well formulated beliefs about the things that you exist above our common level of existence. All revelations and visions are symbolic.

You dont think so? Or do you believe we can't? Your beliefs are just as valid as mine or anyone else's, belief, as I am speaking of in this post encompasses everything, not just existence, if you think of your mom, sister, daughter, its pleasant to believe they only had as much sex as the number of babies they have. Some people take their beliefs that far. To protect themselves from unpleasant emotions..everyone is afraid of something..

Except!!! (And this takes me back to the example you chose) there are many who strongly believe otherwise. Saint Germaine, Buddha, Jesus, and many other ascended masters are believed to be exactly that which you doubt..

I have a friend, very well accomplished lady, professional, responsible, doesn't use any drugs, alcohol or anything. I dont speak to her often, but I shared my recent experience w her and she responded as though I was talking about any other everyday experience. She was almost surprised that I chose to live because she seems so familiar with what we are beyond this existence.
She absolutely believes in reincarnation, and all the things I've been experiencing are not at all strange to her.. her belief is so strong and certain that im much more inclined to lean toward her version than "I dont think we can know"

But who is right? Can we know? Does she know? Will we eventually know? Wouldn't it be great to believe? To have all the information you need to know the answer that fascinates you?

Where are you at seeingisbelieving? I would like to hear your thoughts, and prolly the 3 most important written resources on the subject that im thinking you've probably already cataloged for us

 

[Ramma]

I respond much like your friend when I read your posts. I dont think I believe these core observartions, I know them, and there is a difference in the english languahe between these two. I know Beethoven doesnt believe he is a good composer, I know he is a good (relative to X) composer. By approaching facts and what is observable, belief becomes obsolete. The philosophy expounded by the Buddha is 1 million times superior to that of Bertrand Russell. Why? Cause the latter deals with belief and liberty, the former has trancended both through the direct observation of all phenomena as it is. There is no belief in reeincarnation, there is only a knowing tnat there is no such thing as non existence, why? Cause I directly observe that I now exist (or not exist?). Either way, there is no belief, Im simply observing the fact of my existence. To asume there would be a thing as non existence when all Ive known is existence, that indeed is a belief, since it asumes the existence of a state (non existence) which one never directly experienced, therefore is imagination and conjecture; a belief system.


The Discourse about the Belief Systems
(Titthāyatanasuttaṁ Aṅg 3:61)

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I don't think we can have very well formulated beliefs about the things that you exist above our common level of existence. All revelations and visions are symbolic.

You dont think so? Or do you believe we can't? Your beliefs are just as valid as mine or anyone else's, belief

I think we should seek subjective affirmation and not objective validation in spiritual matters or matters concerning purpose and value. It's not a contest and not worth a debate. To go beyond symbols and images you need to have faith that connects you to the unseen world in a way that is beyond rational.

That is not to say that philosophy and speculation have no use, but faith transcends these.

 

[Ramma]

To go beyond symbols and images you need to have faith that connects you to the unseen world in a way that is beyond rational.

The intellectual inquiry is but one sixteenth to the oppening of the heart

 

[Bisy]

To go beyond symbols and images you need to have faith that connects you to the unseen world in a way that is beyond rational.

The intellectual inquiry is but one sixteenth to the oppening of the heart

What does this mean??

My response to this conversation as it pertains to life beyond death has always been that its kinda entertaining to ponder when bored, the reality of it is that we will all get to find out the answer to that someday, and meanwhile, without a means to prove anything, its almost a waste of time to wonder..

And then I had an experience, and now it would be a betrayal of my own self not to entertain curiosity of the nature of the experience.

 

[Ramma]

Rationality has nothing on feeling. You cant think your way out of disagreeable feelings into agreeable feelings. The spiritual path is an emotional mastery path one million times more than it is an intellectual exercise. The path even trancends consciousness & feeling itself, imagine how much more so thinking.

 

[shroombee]

One way to know your belief structure is healthy is that it DOES change..

:thumb_up:

If you believe the same today that you did yesterday, then you are probably not evolving.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Just ONE of a variety of personal thoughts on this topic.

Belief and the idea of knowing are intertwined: you know you believe that you know x,y,z.

Any system for acquiring "knowledge" or "truth" is predicated on faith in certain axioms of said system: religious/spiritual, logical, empirical, intuitive, etc. Thus at some point, a belief or a belief in a system or a system of belief become unjustified and unsubstantiated.

We aim to believe what is "true." Doesn't mean that what we believe is true...

In doing so, how do we mitigate confirmation bias? How much do our own heuristics get in the way? How can we be sure we have sufficiently ameliorated them?

The anthropic principle highlights how our aim at objectivity is limited by the type of beings we are.

The phenomenal world is, and all of our systems to explain appear to be poor reflections. There's always a divide between that which is "real" and our delineation of it.

Thought experiment: draw a dot on a piece of paper. The dot represents what you know you know. The paper represents what you know you don't know. everything outside the piece of paper is what you don't know you don't know...

We latch on to belief and percieved knowledge as psychological crutches for that which we are uncertain about. Our supposed certainty is a conviction, which, like "knowledge" and "belief" is predicated on unsubstantiated axioms.

Unjustified and unsubstantiated doesn't mean it's wrong or in error. But more so that at a certain point, we can't tell, despite how much it helps us move through the world.

My "beliefs" are conditional. I suspend absolute judgement.

One love

 

[Ramma]

Skeptical doubt is a hindrance, like anger or ill will, an impedement on the path.

If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized

The reality of vicikicchā is not the same as what we mean by doubt in conventional language. Vicikicchā is not doubt about someone's name or about the weather. Vicikicchā is doubt about realities, about nāma and rūpa, about cause and result, about the four noble Truths, about the “Dependent Origination”.

 

[Exitwound]

I understand "belief" as a "subconscious knowing". It's such a deep conviction, that it has departed conscious mind and settled in subconscious.

I think the whole point of having beliefs is that they persist even after conscious mind is disconnected.

For example: Belief is what I think can turn bad trip into a good trip, if you believe that god/angels/allies will save you, they will save you. Difference between hell and heaven is what your beliefs are and hows strong they are.

 

[Duncan Disorderly]

I respond much like your friend when I read your posts. I dont think I believe these core observartions, I know them, and there is a difference in the english languahe between these two. I know Beethoven doesnt believe he is a good composer, I know he is a good (relative to X) composer. By approaching facts and what is observable, belief becomes obsolete. The philosophy expounded by the Buddha is 1 million times superior to that of Bertrand Russell. Why? Cause the latter deals with belief and liberty, the former has trancended both through the direct observation of all phenomena as it is. There is no belief in reeincarnation, there is only a knowing tnat there is no such thing as non existence, why? Cause I directly observe that I now exist (or not exist?). Either way, there is no belief, Im simply observing the fact of my existence. To asume there would be a thing as non existence when all Ive known is existence, that indeed is a belief, since it asumes the existence of a state (non existence) which one never directly experienced, therefore is imagination and conjecture; a belief system.

Yes. There is a profound difference between thinking you are and knowing you are. A lesson I learned as a writer. After adopting it as a hobby, it developed into a passion. At a certain point, I reached self-realization. Fully aware of my strengths and weaknesses. There was no doubt in my capabilities. BAM! I went from thinking I was to knowing I was. It's amazing how powerful a subtle change of perspective can be.

In answer to the OP. What it means to believe. In general terms, you must first consider the broader picture. So, if you want to believe in anything, you have to begin with yourself. From there, you can embrace truth and more importantly, recognize it. Once I found truth, it was very hard to deny. This, I say as someone who questions everything. Only a fool believes something on a whim. I am no fool.

In my quest for truth, I realized that my spiritual faith was unproven, which meant I had doubts. It's hard to balance faith with doubt. But, it turns out this is precisely what you should do. Faith, with no doubt, is blind faith. Faith, with doubt, is true faith. Once you find truth, you eliminate doubt. Along the way, I've held on to what I believed. I had to. If you can't believe something exists, it won't exist.

Peace.

 

[Ramma]

Ye, who can doubt the fact of integrity and virtue? Or call it a belief system? Confidence of heart is founded upon the sense of goodness. Everywhere, a person of integrity stands apart. This is where the rubber of Post Moderninism--the mid to late 20th Century culturally popular and governmentally backed notion that all is subjective, meets the road of direct observation linked with correct interpretation. An evil doer is evil here and in the realm of abstraction. Why? Because evil is founded upon wrong actions, wrong views, wrong speech, wrong livelyhood. Imagine a prisoner of war was sentenced to torture and you were to witness how his captors lead 100 spears through him, and upon realizing he was still alive, methodically burned his wounds with acid admist the agonizing screams of the prisoner. Would one then believe these torturers evil or know them directly as evil? Would one believe it wise to not associate with them, or would one directly not associate with them? Would one believe they were going to a hellish realm upon the break up of the body, or would one know that that was their destiny given the understanding of the law of causation?

 

[Voidmatrix]

Ye, who can doubt the fact of integrity and virtue? Or call it a belief system? Confidence of heart is founded upon the sense of goodness. Everywhere, a person of integrity stands apart. This is where the rubber of Post Moderninism--the mid to late 20th Century culturally popular and governmentally backed notion that all is subjective, meets the road of direct observation linked with correct interpretation. An evil doer is evil here and in the realm of abstraction. Why? Because evil is founded upon wrong actions, wrong views, wrong speech, wrong livelyhood. Imagine a prisoner of war was sentenced to torture and you were to witness how his captors lead 100 spears through him, and upon realizing he was still alive, methodically burned his wounds with acid admist the agonizing screams of the prisoner. Would one then believe these torturers evil or know them directly as evil? Would one believe it wise to not associate with them, or would one directly not associate with them? Would one believe they were going to a hellish realm upon the break up of the body, or would one know that that was their destiny given the understanding of the law of causation?

Pretty solidified in your convictions...

One love

 

[Ramma]

Indeed. I have a question.

It is possible for one who has the conviction: may all beings be happy at heart
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
May all beings be happy at heart.
Let no one deceive another
or despise anyone anywhere,
or through anger or irritation
wish for another to suffer.

is it possible for one who holds such a conviction to suffer, fall into pain, lament, regret, and sorrow, as a direct result of that conviction?

 

[Voidmatrix]

Indeed. I have a question.

It is possible for one who has the conviction: may all beings be happy at heart
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
May all beings be happy at heart.
Let no one deceive another
or despise anyone anywhere,
or through anger or irritation
wish for another to suffer.

is it possible for one who holds such a conviction to suffer, fall into pain, lament, regret, and sorrow, as a direct result of that conviction?

I find that to be more of a beautiful intention (perhaps even a hope, wish, or directed sentiment) than a conviction, so can't answer your question. But I do love the altruism behind it.

One love

 

[Duncan Disorderly]

Ye, who can doubt the fact of integrity and virtue? Or call it a belief system? Confidence of heart is founded upon the sense of goodness. Everywhere, a person of integrity stands apart. This is where the rubber of Post Moderninism--the mid to late 20th Century culturally popular and governmentally backed notion that all is subjective, meets the road of direct observation linked with correct interpretation. An evil doer is evil here and in the realm of abstraction. Why? Because evil is founded upon wrong actions, wrong views, wrong speech, wrong livelyhood. Imagine a prisoner of war was sentenced to torture and you were to witness how his captors lead 100 spears through him, and upon realizing he was still alive, methodically burned his wounds with acid admist the agonizing screams of the prisoner. Would one then believe these torturers evil or know them directly as evil? Would one believe it wise to not associate with them, or would one directly not associate with them? Would one believe they were going to a hellish realm upon the break up of the body, or would one know that that was their destiny given the understanding of the law of causation?

Interesting. Recently, I've been pondering similar notions. The Mayans and Aztecs systematically cut the hearts out of people to appease their Gods. Priests would wear the skins of their victims! They saw nothing wrong in their actions. Are they burning in hell, whatever that is?

Great job if you were a serial killer, I suppose. And, that's the thing, we'll always have serial killers since we live in a chaotic multiverse. Are they evil? From the perspective of someone who isn't a serial killer, I'd say yes. But, does that mean they are evil? Now, that's tougher to answer because I prefer to leave the judging to someone far better qualified.

When I indulge, there are times the dodecahedron pixies, as I call them, send me messages located at the bottom of a deep pit. There are words at the bottom, that reveal my deepest secrets. Clearly, they are accusing me, taunting me. But, I remain firmly resolute in the belief I am destined to ascend. This has taught me a valuable lesson. Ultimately, you are the judge of your destiny. If you believe your ascendance is justified, it will be. There is no cosmic judge that rules over us.

By the way, do you see the dodecahedron pixes? I find it's generally where my journey begins. Odd landscapes made up of usually grey dodecahedrons fitted together, akin to Lego. The interesting thing is the writing that is written on many of the shapes. The ancient Egyptians believed there was power contained in the written word. It appears this is true. Then again, it makes sense. If I speak words, you hear them only one time. If I compose those words, something changes. Although those words are silent, they are perpetually conveying their message. They can remain hidden and unread for thousands of years and upon rediscovery, the message resonates.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Ye, who can doubt the fact of integrity and virtue? Or call it a belief system? Confidence of heart is founded upon the sense of goodness. Everywhere, a person of integrity stands apart. This is where the rubber of Post Moderninism--the mid to late 20th Century culturally popular and governmentally backed notion that all is subjective, meets the road of direct observation linked with correct interpretation. An evil doer is evil here and in the realm of abstraction. Why? Because evil is founded upon wrong actions, wrong views, wrong speech, wrong livelyhood. Imagine a prisoner of war was sentenced to torture and you were to witness how his captors lead 100 spears through him, and upon realizing he was still alive, methodically burned his wounds with acid admist the agonizing screams of the prisoner. Would one then believe these torturers evil or know them directly as evil? Would one believe it wise to not associate with them, or would one directly not associate with them? Would one believe they were going to a hellish realm upon the break up of the body, or would one know that that was their destiny given the understanding of the law of causation?

Interesting. Recently, I've been pondering similar notions. The Mayans and Aztecs systematically cut the hearts out of people to appease their Gods. Priests would wear the skins of their victims! They saw nothing wrong in their actions. Are they burning in hell, whatever that is?

Great job if you were a serial killer, I suppose. And, that's the thing, we'll always have serial killers since we live in a chaotic multiverse. Are they evil? From the perspective of someone who isn't a serial killer, I'd say yes. But, does that mean they are evil? Now, that's tougher to answer because I prefer to leave the judging to someone far better qualified.

When I indulge, there are times the dodecahedron pixies, as I call them, send me messages located at the bottom of a deep pit. There are words at the bottom, that reveal my deepest secrets. Clearly, they are accusing me, taunting me. But, I remain firmly resolute in the belief I am destined to ascend. This has taught me a valuable lesson. Ultimately, you are the judge of your destiny. If you believe your ascendance is justified, it will be. There is no cosmic judge that rules over us.

By the way, do you see the dodecahedron pixes? I find it's generally where my journey begins. Odd landscapes made up of usually grey dodecahedrons fitted together, akin to Lego. The interesting thing is the writing that is written on many of the shapes. The ancient Egyptians believed there was power contained in the written word. It appears this is true. Then again, it makes sense. If I speak words, you hear them only one time. If I compose those words, something changes. Although those words are silent, they are perpetually conveying their message. They can remain hidden and unread for thousands of years and upon rediscovery, the message resonates.

In my DMT experiences, I've largely learned to avoid connotating or associating certain types of binary meaning to things experienced; good/evil, etc.

There are many elements to our ideas surrounding good and evil. Relative to cultures that celebrated through sacrifice, it seems the question could be framed, "are they potentially evil, or are they perhaps misguided/mistaken in some way?" It seems hard to condone someone as evil if their intention doesn't support that. But how could we even assess if they are being forthcoming relative to their intention? Perhaps something we'll never know.

In regards to the serial killer example, in my mind: the construct of evil is coined to things not conducive to our (as community, groups, species etc) progress and survival, and is actually contrary to it. It seems almost primitive in it's mechanism. Not that it's good or bad, just an old behavior of the species.

I often see actions as bad, wrong, unbalanced, etc (which are all just my subjective stances), but no one is beyond redemption.

From my understanding of Zen, the analytical, word-based mind is what is to be transcended because it causes duality in reality when said duality does not actually exist (according to Zen). So there's a sort of escape from the attachment to words that is aimed at liberation in seeing the world as it really is. Such an idea brings Parmenedes to mind, who thought that reality is one, there is no change, and existence is sufficiently and necessarily extant.

I bring it in not as a counterpoint (because I enjoy egyptian esoterism as much as any other; they're all just paradigms to me), but to highlight another side of the coin from what was stated well about the Egyptian position. I find joy in engaging with contrary, powerful, equally (in)valid systems.

One love

 

[Duncan Disorderly]

@Voidmatrix. Trust me, I welcome the exploration of the contrary. What kind of a realist would I be if I didn't? Throughout my life, I have strived to avoid labels or defining what I can't define. Labels inevitably have the tendency to be biased and this is blinding.

Yes, the serial killer appears to feed a primitive need over an intellectual one, despite their motivations. As far as reality is concerned, for all I know, everything is an illusion. The only thing I know for certain is simple. I am. The holographic universe concept has become possible in my mind, post-DMT. Pre-DMT, I was a lost child.

My passion for the DMT experience taps into my natural human curiosity, with eagerness to explore further. On the whole, my mindset is to be a passive observer and try to maintain an impartial perspective. It works. For me. Thankfully, I am pragmatic by nature. It helps considerably as it influences my approach and keeps me calm. This is the key to the experience. A calm state, poised to expect the unexpected.

Peace.