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What's with the NDE analogy? It's getting a bit old...

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idtravlr

idtravlr

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I frequently still hear people speak of ties between the DMT experience and the "Near Death" or hospital room "Out of Body" experiences. Even though I've never read a single DMT experience report (outside of Strassman's patients) that even sounds remotely similar to what people who have had NDE's reported, there are still people out their trying to explain the psychopharmacology of DMT by reciting blurbs about how "studies have shown that X happens to the brain during an NDE or similar experience, so this is clearly (or more than likely) what happens during a DMT journey". This argument seems inexplicably short sited and just plain irrelevant to me, since the experiences are entirely different.

Aside from this comparison being irrelevant, it only serves to further the misconception of the general public's belief that NDE's and OBE's are the same phenomena as the DMT experience. IMO, we should be working to accurately portray the experience, as opposed to reinforcing old and outdated beliefs.

Anytime you hear about DMT in the public eye, you always here this reference to it activating the same mechanism in the brain that near death and high-stress situations activate, and it has no scientific backing what so ever. I guess this is just a pet peeve of mine that I would like to see change.

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong and lot's of people have NDE type experiences on DMT...:?

Peace,
-idt
 
I've never experienced anything like the classic NDE. IMO, I have experienced dying, death, and the after life many times during my spice voyages. I wouldnt associate anything I have ever experienced on DMT as a NDE in the classical sense.
 
same with dreaming imo.. sure dreams are weird but very rarely or never are they 10-dimensional inteligent semi-transparent coordinated fractal beings speaking escher-like cubes into existence... so how can people still be talking about how dreams are created by dmt, it just doesnt make sense
 
Is the point these people are trying to make that DMT may be a common ingredient in NDE, dreaming, OBE etc. In that the molecule itself is somehow involved in each phenomenon, but not that each yields the exact same experience.

Having never had a NDE etc, I can't comment on the similarity or lack of, that was just my understanding from what I have read.
 
benzyme said:
i had a real NDE... OD on pcp.
doctors had to revive me from what was basically an 8 hour coma.

dmt is nothing like a real NDE.
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It's funny that you say this benzyme. I was actually going to say something to the effect of "If there is one drug out there that appears to have the same mechanism as an NDE or OBE it's PCP", but I forgot! :p Glad you pointed it out! So is your story on "Untold Stories of the ER" or some show like that? ;)

1664 said:
Is the point these people are trying to make that DMT may be a common ingredient in NDE, dreaming, OBE etc. In that the molecule itself is somehow involved in each phenomenon, but not that each yields the exact same experience.
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1664 - Perhaps that is the case, but it's never called out as such. It's always generalizing, so hard to say...

Ice House Shaman makes a good point as well. Maybe the public is misreading experiences like "death and rebirth" to mean NDE's. Additionally OBE's. I leave my body frequently, but it's not the classic OBE where I'm up in a corner looking back down at myself in the real world, you know?

Endlessness - good point on the dreams as well. Definitely a huge difference between dreams and the DMT experience. Although the one time I had a DMT journey in a dream, it REALLY felt like DMT! :shock:

Sorry my quotes / reply's are all out of order. I'm writing as I'm thinking...

Peace,
-idt
 
Yea, I've had several drug dreams. Never had a dream anything like DMT. Or a classic NDE. Or an alien abduction (as long as we're on the "DMT explains..." thread).
 
I often have dreams about substances I've never tried, and they are probably amalgamations of what I've read/heard about the substances, or just subconscious guesswork based on experiences I have had.

Last night I had a dream I was on something, it felt like LSD (though I've only ever ingested LSA) and the hallucinations were stronger and more incredible than anything I've seen while awake. Overall, it was a frightening and wonderful dream.

The weirdest thing is when I have a drug dream, wake up, and still feel like I'm on whatever I took in the dream. Really promotes the whole meditation/endogenous DMT stuff :)
 
idtravlr said:
Even though I've never read a single DMT experience report (outside of Strassman's patients) that even sounds remotely similar to what people who have had NDE's reported, there are still people out their trying to explain the psychopharmacology of DMT by reciting blurbs about how "studies have shown that X happens to the brain during an NDE or similar experience, so this is clearly (or more than likely) what happens during a DMT journey".

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong and lot's of people have NDE type experiences on DMT...:?
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Did you perchance read a post I made earlier today containing the "Geography of Dead" chapter from a book entitled "Dreamtime and Inner Space"? The book is on the topic of shamanism, but the descriptions of so-called near-death states are uncannily similar to many of the classic aspects of Spice journeys. The book makes no mention of Spice and does not connect the phenomena with any bio-chemical activity, but the descriptions it gives of near-death states seems too similar to many of the classic aspects of Spice journeys to be the result of pure coincidence. There must be some sort of connection.

I think there's a similar connection between Spice and so-called alien-abduction experiences, on the basis of Strassman's work and various underground reports. The idea here is that some (all?) of the people who felt they were abducted by aliens actually had experienced a release of endogeneous Spice, and without realizing what had happened, assumed they'd been abducted or tested or violated by actual, physical aliens.

I don't know of any solid, physical proof of a connection between these types of experience, such as a machine connected to an alien abduction experiencer that gave indication of increased quantities of Spice in the person's bloodstream, but I think the marked similarities between the phenomena suggest there is a connection.
 
About a month ago, I had a DMT experience that was unlike any I had ever had. I had recently purchased a GVG and was unaware of how incredibly efficient it can be, and I ended up inhaling what is for me a strong dose (28mg) in about 10-15 seconds.

Prior to that experience, I had 200+ DMT journeys, maybe more. Some of them were intense beyond imagining. But this “death” experience was unlike any of the others. It was (and remains) orders of magnitude more intense, and I remained perfectly alert, aware, and clear-minded throughout (pre-dosed with THH, this may have contributed to the clarity?).

Leaving my body during an experience is nothing new, but this particular time I had left it further behind than ever before. I wondered why this experience was so different, so unlike any prior experience. I concluded (wrongly as it turned out) that I had died. I assumed that I had a heart attack (I’m almost 50, so it’s possible).

There was nothing about the experience that suggested the contrary to me. I wanted to go back, but my body was gone. There was no body to go back to. Eventually, (after the most difficult experience of my life), I “found” my body. But it was still unbelievably difficult to get back into it!

In hindsight, this was “just” a new level of DMT experience (huge understatement). Had I understood that at the time, it would have been very pleasant. As it was, it was such a struggle.

Anyhow, the experience wasn’t like a classic NDE – tunnel, white light, relatives, etc. but I can understand how people can think that they’ve died while in the throes of an intense DMT experience.
 
gibran2 - That sounds like it was a BIG one for sure! The GVG is amazingly effective, isn't it? Does the fact that this report makes me want to go get my pipe make me a bit twisted? :twisted:

Peace,
-idt
 
I've had an NDE and i find that there are similarities with DMT. But there are differences as well.

I had an NDE when i was 6 years old. And it was caused by something as trivial as an exploding appendix.

The first part was very much like a nitrogen-oxide rush. I got sucked upward into a spiraling vortex. It was a a dark vortex that seemed to have no depth and it's spirals where serated. There was also a carrier wave type of sound wich was a dark and lowpitched sort of roar. Once i was inside that vortex every sense of direction was gone: there was no up or down or left or right anymore, it seemed.

Then i was guided on a sort of tour through my life. That part was more dream-like and had more simmilarities with DMT. I also remembered the time before i was born.
The whole experience was in many ways different from a normal DMT-trip, but it had that weird unearthly touch as well as the spiritual dimension of it.

I also find that the higher the dose of DMT you take, the more it resembles that unearthly feeling.

From my perspective now, the biggest difference with that experience and my later experiences, is that i was just a kid then. I perceived the whole thing totally different then i would do now. I had not the fear of death and dying yet, that becomes part of you when you get older, yet i was intimidated by the unknown.
I found that vortex at that time a very unpleasant sensation, deeply intimidating. I can even say that i hated it. I also payed no attention to the entity that guided me around through my life.

I must say that i also find that the normal dreamstate has simmilarities with the state of being under the influence of psychedelic's in general(not specifically DMT). I've had dreams of being obducted by aliens but even when i dream of pretty 'normal' things, there is always something about it that is LSD-like or DMT-like. There is always something weird going on with the whole environment and peticularly with the perception of time. I don't realy know if this is so for me, since i started using psychedelic's or whether it has always been that way. But dreams have that 'texture' that is very much like tryptamine psychedelic's to me. There is always something epic and dramatic about dreams.
 
A little something to add on the whole dream/NDE topic...

Quite a few years ago now I did without a doubt the most stupid and reckless thing I have EVER done.

I ate 25g of powdered Iboga root. Whole root, I found out afterwards, contains all the nasties, with only traces of alkaloids. Traditionally it used as a diarrhea cure.

I broke several very important rules that night.

Firstly, I consumed a large quantity of nasty whole root as oppose to root bark

I ate it all immediately, in gel caps, without staggering the dosing

I consumed it while on my own

I also ate some 10x Syrian Rue and caapi extract with it. I am certain now, that despite the woods containing nasties, if I had consumed the much cleaner, more potent root bark, I would have definitely 'joined the ancestors' that night, so to speak.

What followed was 4 days of suffering (took me this long before I could walk again). The whole time I was fighting to remain conscious. Purging brought no relief and was incredibly unpleasant, and I ain't one to whine about a nice cleansing purge!

At one point I fell into a lucid dream state. I thought I was awake at the time...it was completely and utterly vivid. In this dream/vision/outer body experience I was downstairs, it was nighttime, and I was looking out the front door. I noticed this figure, walking towards the door, very close...darker than the night which enveloped it, like a black hole. This felt extremely menacing, and I awoke from this trance screaming. And I'm someone who likes to think they're not easily fazed by things. Back then I kinda assumed this figure was the spirit of Iboga approaching, but I was not ready/worthy.

Since that time, I have worked with Iboga twice and think this not the case. Weird as it sounds, I think that may have been some representation of death, 'the changer' as a presence. I know this might sounds crazy, but I can't begin to describe how vivid the experience was. Up there with my top 3 most harrowing drug experiences EVER (smoked DMT overdose on Syrian Rue...extreme terror beyond what I thought possible, extremely menacing, like being probed by a forceful alien intelligence + smoked Salvia 20x on LSD...experiencing being squashed between infinite dimensions...ouch!)

Still though learned a powerful lesson of respect through that experience…and Iboga whole root…no es bueno!! 😉
 
benzyme said:
i had a real NDE... OD on pcp.
doctors had to revive me from what was basically an 8 hour coma.

dmt is nothing like a real NDE.
Click to expand...
You were on PCP so it's not a classic NDE really, which I presume is one when you are sober... or is it? I wonder if many of the ones that happen to people already in hospital are tainted by their painkillers... So what happened? I'm glad you survived, anyway.

Polytrip, your NDE sounds crazy, a tour of your life with an entity as your guide?! What was the time before you were born like? Do you believe the experience to be a hallucination, or for real?

I think of DMT as being nearest to astral projection, except that it actually works, and it's rocket-powered!
 
I believe that it was real, but at the same time i am realistic enough to be highly sceptical towards my own beliefs.
I had lost counsciousnous, but i know that the doctors also injected a lot of stuff in my body. Some might have had an effect.

The time before my birth as was shown to me is hard to describe. It was as if i was part of a large energy field. It felt like i was floating around in a dark blue cloud or a haze. It was made clear to me by the entity that i had 'chosen' this life and once i had made that decission i was sucked inside another kind of vortex, like being flushed through a sort of drainpipe, towards this life.

I think people sometimes have NDE's without actually realizing it, or calling it that way: a friend of me caught a nasty malaria infection when he was in indonesia. At a certain moment he heard voices saying that if he would 'give in to the fever' it would bring him to the most beautyfull place...So i got shivers and goosebumps when i heared him tell this story because to me this sounds like death literally calling him. But to him this was just a sort of hallucination like in a delirium.
 
Those are things i don't realy recall in a very datailed manner. I don't believe i had a body in the normal sense, but i believe there was some sort of physical awareness.
I didn't pay much attention to the entity at that time. I believe it was definately a presence instead of just a voice but i don't recall what it looked like. Maybe i only félt it's presence without seeing it. But it did talk to me. I remember that it did feel very warm and pure, though.

Altoghether it was a strange mix of sensations. Very unpleasant and 'cold' feelings and pleasant 'warm' feelings. A bit like criminals must feel when they're interogated and it's 'good cop/bad cop' like you see in those cool tv-series.

I was too young to be able to realy make any sense of it. Maybe the fact that for so many years i didn't spent a moment thinking about it, was because in many ways it was quite a traumatic experience. Not that i completely supressed it. I knew it was there. But it was frightening in just the whole...scale of it. Life and death, when it comes to your own existence here on this planet is an incomprehensably big thing when it hits you in the face.

In the years that followed i distanced myself from that experience.
Even today i wouldn't realy be able to say how it has affected me in who i have become.

I spent years physically recovering from it. I couldn't run for 10 meters till my 11th or i would be hyperventilating heavily and feel an intense pain in my chest.

Maybe the whole thing has drawn me towards the use of psychedelic's later on. But there are plenty of other reasons why i felt curiousity towards these deep psychological journeys.
 
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