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wikileaks: friend or foe?

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olympus mon said:
some times you gotta crack some eggs to make a cake.

sadly this will most likely directly cause loss of human life in some area such as encouraging kidnapping. thats a small drop in the bucket of lives lost compared to the way these goverments and agency's conduct themselves. that must be looked at.

its called fratricide and its a horrible thing but its also not 100% avoidable.

we want govt accountable to the ones they serve. if the current governance will not allow this then maybe its time for change. maybe change comes in the form of a devastating blow to the corrupt greedy liars exposing them for what they are.
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I don't see the necessety of revealing names of al-quaida informants, places that are of vital interest and fragile to terror attacks, etc.
That's just putting people's lives at risk for something abstract as a the 'idea of opennes'.

No matter how evil the government may be, this isn't good.

Hate is a very bad motivation.
The regime of the tsars wasn't right either, but the revolution gave russia a century of communism, costing more lives than the entire 2th world war did.
 
If opennes is so good, than why don't they post all the names of their informants, the names of everybody contributing to wikileaks and the codes with wich they log in?

Could that be because if wikileaks does this, this would certainly have consequences for them?

How do they know that?

Could that be because they know that people whith certain ideas would act according to those ideas?

So...what you're saying then ,is that you cannot be open about everything because you cannot trust everybody?
 
polytrip said:
olympus mon said:
some times you gotta crack some eggs to make a cake.

sadly this will most likely directly cause loss of human life in some area such as encouraging kidnapping. thats a small drop in the bucket of lives lost compared to the way these goverments and agency's conduct themselves. that must be looked at.

its called fratricide and its a horrible thing but its also not 100% avoidable.

we want govt accountable to the ones they serve. if the current governance will not allow this then maybe its time for change. maybe change comes in the form of a devastating blow to the corrupt greedy liars exposing them for what they are.
Click to expand...
I don't see the necessety of revealing names of al-quaida informants, places that are of vital interest and fragile to terror attacks, etc.
That's just putting people's lives at risk for something abstract as a the 'idea of opennes'.

No matter how evil the government may be, this isn't good.

Hate is a very bad motivation.
The regime of the tsars wasn't right either, but the revolution gave russia a century of communism, costing more lives than the entire 2th world war did.
Click to expand...


how do you figure this isn't good? you think global gov't perpetrating the disproportionate allocation of resources is?


pfff.

the cat is out of the bag, and the free-thinking world is glad. finally, the twisted agendas are being revealed. I don't know why you play devil's advocate, but you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided it may seem.
 
benzyme said:
how do you figure this isn't good? you think global gov't perpetrating the disproportionate allocation of resources is?
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I already told you that i totally agree with you on that.

But you can't say stalin was a nice guy either, just because he also happened to be against hitler.

I don't see how putting peoples lives at risk, many of whom have never agreed on anything evil their government does and have no responsibility in it whatsoever, could be justified when there is no necessity to do this.

Saddam's regime wasn't good either, but do you think the anarchy iraq currently is in, is an improvement in any way?

You are letting anger, wich is justified...can't make that clear enough, lead your opinions on what's right and wrong.
Anger is a usefull emotion, but dangerous as well.

The germans had all the right to be angry after the versailes treaty...and man where they angry.
Was it good that they've let that justified anger hijack their brains?
 
well polytrip, if the US and other countries would stop putting their noses where they arent called for (for example selling weapons to taliban and other groups/regimes behind the curtains, invading middle eastern countries and agressive foreign policy in general, etc etc), there wouldnt be the need for USA informers in al-qaeda or whatever else that you say is 'protecting us'.

Its a vicious cycle, the dog biting its own tail, all these secretive measures in the government are made to maintain itself and to keep those at top of the pyramid in their place while actually keeping the problems in their place (i.e. unfair foreign policies, social unbalance which creates hatred and problems, etc etc). I dont think for a moment that the western countries' position is for our safety, so Im not gonna buy into the 'oh but they need to keep informants secret for our safety' talk.. Imo they are the ones making the world unsafe in the first place.

Expose it all!


And the fact that you use stalin as an example isnt a valid argument imo because stalin just changed the leader but continued the same power-greedy actions, secrets and conspirations, violence and death. You cant compare that to wikileaks..

Nobody is saying to put the owner of wikileaks as the world leader, we're just happy all this crap is coming to light and hopefully that there will be a movement against the world leaders and the fake "democracy" (lol) they want us to believe we are living. Its about time we evolve as a species.

and your example of iraq is again bad one because USA and western countries are in big part the cause for the chaos there..

Its not about anger, its about realizing that the system we live in is unsustainable in so many ways and the direct cause of all the violence they are claiming to try to protect us from. Its the most logic conclusion one could reach, imo, that we need the dirt to be exposed, find a new way to organize ourselves socially and to rethink our objectives as a species.
 
polytrip said:
If opennes is so good, than why don't they post all the names of their informants, the names of everybody contributing to wikileaks and the codes with wich they log in?

Could that be because if wikileaks does this, this would certainly have consequences for them?

How do they know that?

Could that be because they know that people with certain ideas would act according to those ideas?

So...what you're saying then ,is that you cannot be open about everything because you cannot trust everybody?
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polytrip i hear you brother and i respect your view. all your points are valid and id agree with some. but heres why i think this is a good thing.

its not so much about the actual information being spread. this is where harm will be caused and its the part that i dont like. thats why i called it fratricide, no one is being targeted but lives will be lost. this is no little matter.
i think a whole bunch of the secrets being revealed the government has a right to keep.
however the government brought this on themselves with their repeated lies, secret wars, drug trafficking,war profiteering, allowing and knowing the poisoning its citizens, the oil game, scandals, back door corporate deals, the destruction of our planet being allowed because of big business ext.

to me this whole thing is s sign of something much bigger. the global paradigm change. these powers are fully aware their manner of conducting business is imploding in on itself. the current neo-political global paradigm is un sustainable self consuming cancer and at its end. these leaders of ours are well aware they have been consuming themselves starting at their tails and are now sitting there with heads in their mouths. the reason their time is coming to an end isnt because they plan on ever doing the right thing, its ending because either a planetary "peaceful" overthrow is coming, or their un checked methods succeed in completely collapsing society and destroying the surface of the planet. a total breakdown of basic services and economy, the end of life as we know it.

for me the wikileaks cables are a huge step tords a peaceful revolution that will save our species and planet from ist certain doom. the motivation so people will stand up together and say NO MORE!. what is so powerful about things like the 911 attacks and now cable-gate is once we have passed through that door there is no turning back. it must fully play out. its a history making event. this will hopefully be the catalyst for that change.

now you may be thinking "well thats great and all but people are still going to die". this is true but its my beliefs that so many more people have been killed and will continue to be killed because of the powerful lies and above mentioned corruption. in a way this is un fortunately a war the prize being our planet and way of life, a sustainable modern world. a new global paradigm.

im sorry that some will fall in this transition but much much more will fall if these people are allowed to continue hurtling us twords certain mass destruction. we are lead by the least amongst us this must change. this may be the spark for that change.
 
endlessness said:
well polytrip, if the US and other countries would stop putting their noses where they arent called for (for example selling weapons to taliban and other groups/regimes behind the curtains, invading middle eastern countries and agressive foreign policy in general, etc etc), there wouldnt be the need for USA informers in al-qaeda or whatever else that you say is 'protecting us'.
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be assured endlessnes this is so much bigger than just the untied states. its about all the corrupted powers coming down and the people rising up. not just what the u.s. is doing.

dont get me wrong im not at all defending america and i even served my country in the gulf war. i just think these cables expose the bullshit on a global scale. were just the example being shown.
 
They threw out all the files to the internet on Torrent sites. the Files are encrypted so you cant open them until they give you the key. I guess they claim if they are shut down they will put out the key and the files will be all over the world in seconds.
 
I also want the dirt to be exposed.
But for instance an inventory of locations that are of vital importance and fragile to terror attacks at the same time, is not in any way usefull.

I used stalin and iraq as examples to show that anger is a bad sentiment when it comes to decission making.
Even when the anger is justified.

I don't like it if people question my integrity, like as if i would not be appalled by war crimes or as if i would not mind our governments working for the interest of a few billionaires.

The actions of our governments and their level of coruption makes me want to cry.
And i also think, like i stated before that the government owes it to itself that all of this is happening.

But it does look like a crusade against the entire system, including the parts that áre necessary, that could also demand the lives of innocent people.
 
olympus mon said:
endlessness said:
well polytrip, if the US and other countries would stop putting their noses where they arent called for (for example selling weapons to taliban and other groups/regimes behind the curtains, invading middle eastern countries and agressive foreign policy in general, etc etc), there wouldnt be the need for USA informers in al-qaeda or whatever else that you say is 'protecting us'.
Click to expand...
be assured endlessnes this is so much bigger than just the untied states. its about all the corrupted powers coming down and the people rising up. not just what the u.s. is doing.

dont get me wrong im not at all defending america and i even served my country in the gulf war. i just think these cables expose the bullshit on a global scale. were just the example being shown.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah I agree.. Thats why I said "US and other countries". USA is just one more side of the whole unsustainable system that plagues our world. Its a global change that is necessary, so its fitting that the information being leaked is globally relevant ;)
 
I think now maybe they haven't put all the documents out there because they are trying to sort through it so as to not put out something that might endanger lives but the govt's pressure is going to force their hand. 250,000 documents is a lot for a handful of people to sort through and check out information on etc..
 
vovin said:
I think now maybe they haven't put all the documents out there because they are trying to sort through it so as to not put out something that might endanger lives but the govt's pressure is going to force their hand. 250,000 documents is a lot for a handful of people to sort through and check out information on etc..
Click to expand...
maybe they should have waited to release anything until their work was finished. im worried we aren't going to get the full collection of cables. it would be irresponsible to blindly release everything at once not knowing what is in all the transmissions. i feel the governments are going to go to unprecedented lengths to stop Julian and wikileaks. i can see this being an all bets are off kind of match. the gloves are most certainly coming off.

keep in mind the govt doesn't know what he has and what he doesn't have. they have to assume he has proof of the dirtiest of the dirty. so the question is....how far will the arguably most powerful govt on the planet go to shut him up?
 
If I get the gist correctly they basically got a copy of files that were sent through oversea cables from one date to another. I dont know enough of the details so I am guessing somone else might want to straighten the facts. But if they know what dates he had then they could look to their own archive if it has not been deleted to see what he has one them.
 
The knives are out for Mr Assange because although the various governments may not know exactly what dirt he has on them, their uneasy consciences are working on the assumption that his files are likely to contain info on the worst of their deeds.

I also suspect that at some point some 'backroom' negotiations will take place allowing Mr Assange to divert some of the flak heading his way with all the personal consequences that that entails; this will result in a less than complete expose of the info he has.Unless, of course, he really is prepared to be a 'martyr' to this cause.

I also dont believe that there is anything as a properly free society; freedom is best defined, on a practical level, as the right to do what the law allows.And we all know some laws are shite!

Politics has never had a 'moral' framework and the ruler who is governed by morals can never be a skilled politician; the most skilled political figures are masters of the art of cunning and make-believe.Personal qualities like frankness and honesty are vices in the political sphere and are probably as likely to cause defeat as the hardiest of opponents.How depressing.....
 
i hope he knew how this was going to go down and planned accordingly. if he was surprised by any of these actions against him he is a fool. i doubt that is the case.
 
we are living in some very very frightening times. the fact that julian assage had to exist to expose the corrupt world governments is mind-boggling. i cannot believe where this world is right now. corrupt and terrorist governments rule the world and the people get mowed down if they resist. i hate thinking like this, but i think they're going to murder him to set an example. they are exactly those sort of people. i commend mr. assage for what he's done.

sometimes i find it hard to keep from losing it completely. these are troubling times, but as scary as it all is, i absolutely believe it's necessary if things are to change for the better.
 
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