1 week of Syrian Rue Tea

[northape]

Did you feel this is part of a progression, or part of a kind of lockout? From my experience the interactive nature of the Harmala + DMT experience is one of the most fascinating aspects. Did you live according to the plan and what you are supposed to be doing? If not you would know why the visions could have stopped. Visions and somatic can be different modalities of the same thing I would say and often cannot be separated.

I feel like my lack of visions is part of the plan. It's not that I'm locked out of the experience, but rather that my visual center works at a highly reduced capacity. Back in 2013, I had a session where my 3rd eye opened, and I saw dmt-like visions instead of dreams for three months. I was basically not ready, so a part of myself closed that opening. I even saw an image of a big eye on top of my skull closing. They have a nice name for it in the Tibetan tradition: the sky door. So, the plug has been pulled from my side, and I need to unravel my own knots to open the door again. I know about it, and medicine knows about it. I have no idea how I closed it, so nothing can be done about it right now. That's just the story my mind created around the issue. How much of it is true, I have no idea

Certain types of Buddhist practice or mystical paths yes, ethics, karma, rebirth, different planes of existence; but the total absense of discussion of God is a major omission to say the least from the Dharma, that and no mention of psychedelics, which is the most consistent direct path to communion with it.
Maybe Advaita. What about Kabbalah which Strassman and others go on about. The experience doesn't fit and seems to go beyond any established framework. Shocking but there it is.

Oh, they have God in Buddhism too. They just use different terms to avoid theism, such as karma, emptiness, dependent origination, dharmakaya, and rigpa, to name a few. We can see these terms as descriptions of the divine, the same way there are 108 names for Shiva or some other deity. Psychedelics are there too, but it's an oral tradition. I'm not in the inner circles of any school, so I have no idea how widespread they are nowadays.

I don't know about Advaita in general, but Sri Ramana's teachings work for any experience. He would always point to who is seeing it all and, by doing so, shift attention to what matters. Whatever we see is just a show anyway, similar to a dream. There is no dream without a dreamer. His actual philosophy is closer to Buddhism, imo. He just used the cultural container he was born into.

There is no creation, no destruction, no bondage, no longing to be freed from bondage, no striving to be free [from bondage], nor anyone who has attained [freedom from bondage]. Know that this is the ultimate truth.

 

[Panpsychic]

I feel like my lack of visions is part of the plan. It's not that I'm locked out of the experience, but rather that my visual center works at a highly reduced capacity. Back in 2013, I had a session where my 3rd eye opened, and I saw dmt-like visions instead of dreams for three months. I was basically not ready, so a part of myself closed that opening. I even saw an image of a big eye on top of my skull closing. They have a nice name for it in the Tibetan tradition: the sky door. So, the plug has been pulled from my side, and I need to unravel my own knots to open the door again. I know about it, and medicine knows about it. I have no idea how I closed it, so nothing can be done about it right now. That's just the story my mind created around the issue. How much of it is true, I have no idea

Your experience of the third eye opening sounds incredible, and must be frustrating then if you had essentially locked yourself out and now unable to find the key. If you are searching for the key again, possibly the path back to that if its something that you indeed feel ready for and want, can be shown through dreams.

Taking 4 or 5 harmala seeds chewed and held sublingually for a few minutes then eaten before going to bed can work, especially if combined with meditation and lucid dream practices. Dreams will be enhanced significantly but I have also found these harmala induced dreams can be a path of connection to that terrain and access to interacting with it more.

Oh, they have God in Buddhism too. They just use different terms to avoid theism, such as karma, emptiness, dependent origination, dharmakaya, and rigpa, to name a few. We can see these terms as descriptions of the divine, the same way there are 108 names for Shiva or some other deity. Psychedelics are there too, but it's an oral tradition. I'm not in the inner circles of any school, so I have no idea how widespread they are nowadays.

I don't know about Advaita in general, but Sri Ramana's teachings work for any experience. He would always point to who is seeing it all and, by doing so, shift attention to what matters. Whatever we see is just a show anyway, similar to a dream. There is no dream without a dreamer. His actual philosophy is closer to Buddhism, imo. He just used the cultural container he was born into.

Its not just a technical issue of terminology I am speaking about though. I do get that Dharmakaya and Ringpa are terms that can have some equivalency. Yet the path is generally one of self practice although there are teachers yes, but the Buddha’s last words were supposed to have been "All things that are put together come apart. Work to your own salvation with diligence".

This is great advice yes, but the emphasis is on the individual. Christians I had spoken to in the past would state that "the issue is you are relying only on yourself whereas I have God" and I would dismiss this as wishful thinking and just a belief. Psychedelics in particular Harmala and DMT have proven otherwise however, and for me it goes beyond Buddhism, unless they are saying the Dharmakaya can directly communicate with you?

There is direct precence of the Highest, not only directly communicating but even physically interacting with my system as well as directing consciousness to higher states well beyond my normal capability. So this is a challenge to the traditional Buddhist framework in my view, unless there are some hidden esoteric schools out there that acknowledge direct intervention from the Dharmakaya.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Ime any negativity from rue is caused by uncomfortable physical sensations, but the more you work with rue the more you will learn how to control these sensations, for example when i first started working with rue when i would take too much the rough body load would trigger pretty scary and overwhelming trips with a negative vibe, but after a while you get to have almost full control of those sensations, mainly by breathing, and some specific body movements.

Rue is a very gentle plant, but you might not percieve it as "gentle" if your not fully pure physically and spiritually, the side effects you might get at the beggining is just the rue cleaning you up.

Even the drowsiness and the lack of coordination, i know for a fact that this is also part of its healing, because after getting past the side effects of huge doses by taking them daily, the lack of coordination turns into full on athletisim and strength and agility and balance, i can take 8-10g right now and stand up from the floor with only one leg pretty easily, and run with really good balance while barely feeling tired.

Trust the rue and the reward is infinite.

Thanks for your feedback about Syrian Rue, it's reassuring. I've upped my dosage to 2.5g yesterday, slept from 9AM to 5PM, the noradrenergic effect from the MAO inhibition was quite harsh, my brain kept racing on things I'm afraid off but I'm pretty sure once the body adapts it has a lot of things to offer. I'm wondering if taking 1.5g twice a day will help reach that adaptation in a more gentle manner because each time I take a dose higher than 2g I feel like I'm loosing my mind.

Re: psychoemotional residues in the body - there have been some good discussions in @TransistorBass' yoga thread.

I took the time to read the thread, thanks

 

[Transform]

each time I take a dose higher than 2g I feel like I'm loosing my mind.

Not saying that you should take a higher dose, but I'd be intrigued to hear more on how you feel to be "losing your mind" with them. Having had higher harmala doses myself, in the form of 3.5g rue brews, it's relatable - but there was a lot of instructive stuff in those experiences, and not just in the form of learning to take less

I feel there's an element of burning up personal hubris, and some of the ways this happens may prove challenging to the ego.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Not saying that you should take a higher dose, but I'd be intrigued to hear more on how you feel to be "losing your mind" with them. Having had higher harmala doses myself, in the form of 3.5g rue brews, it's relatable - but there was a lot of instructive stuff in those experiences, and not just in the form of learning to take less

I feel there's an element of burning up personal hubris, and some of the ways this happens may prove challenging to the ego.

Even at 1.5g/2.0g, I get this feeling of losing my mind/going insane but not in a "bad trip" way. I get this feeling of diving deep into my body as if I were falling into the ocean with only the observer state that remains, during that process, I'll have all sorts of imagery coming up to the surface, sometimes of alien nature, the losing my mind feeling feels more like the natural ego attachments that dissolve, I'll also have feelings like maybe I wasted "my life", or that I was all wrong regarding how I perceive and experience reality, it's physically very unpleasant but It goes away.

It's related to my way of living too I think. I lost all personal will regarding achieving or attaining something. I truly think that everything in this reality is a distraction to the infinite self, even the sense of being someone which makes it quite "difficult" to operate in a day to day basis in current modern society where too much importance is given to the character, the individual, achieving things, constantly pursuing something "outside", constant actions aiming at maintaining the "false" self. And sometimes those thoughts and feeling I've mentioned earlier will arise, which I think are just normal, that's why I just observe and don't give that much importance even if it can be hard sometimes because most of the thing outside reflects the opposite, but it is what it is, it's part of Samsara.

 

[Panpsychic]

Even at 1.5g/2.0g, I get this feeling of losing my mind/going insane but not in a "bad trip" way. I get this feeling of diving deep into my body as if I were falling into the ocean with only the observer state that remains, during that process, I'll have all sorts of imagery coming up to the surface, sometimes of alien nature, the losing my mind feeling feels more like the natural ego attachments that dissolve, I'll also have feelings like maybe I wasted "my life", or that I was all wrong regarding how I perceive and experience reality, it's physically very unpleasant but It goes away.

Its very interesting to me hearing these very trippy reports with Harmala tea alone...its worth remembering that the Ayahuasca plant is actually the Caapi not the DMT and it is also considered active on its own. I have to say that I have never gone really deep with Harmala brew alone because of the nausea and body temperature fluctuations put me off, but it may be worth going back and seeing through what may be an adaptation phase, or at least significantly upping the Harmala dosage and placing less emphasis on the DMT subsequently.

It's related to my way of living too I think. I lost all personal will regarding achieving or attaining something. I truly think that everything in this reality is a distraction to the infinite self, even the sense of being someone which makes it quite "difficult" to operate in a day to day basis in current modern society where too much importance is given to the character, the individual, achieving things, constantly pursuing something "outside", constant actions aiming at maintaining the "false" self. And sometimes those thoughts and feeling I've mentioned earlier will arise, which I think are just normal, that's why I just observe and don't give that much importance even if it can be hard sometimes because most of the thing outside reflects the opposite, but it is what it is, it's part of Samsara.

This is ultimately true. However don't forget that there is always a grounding of some form be it a monastic community of support or similar network, for those who wanted to persue that to its extent. You will find much more resonance with spiritual practitioners in general than within psychedelic users I have found, all though there can obviously be overlap but people use psychedelics for various reasons. However Harmalas are already quite niche and a particular type of individual would be drawn to them.

Your 'character and identity' in the world is also necessary. You have something to fulfill and attachments to work through, otherwise you would already one with the Infinite and wouldn't have come here. So the task of participating and sustaining this individual identity can be reconciled with the larger quest of transcending it. It may that you are more drawn to solitude, quiet, old buildings, cathedrals and graveyards or helping the needy for example as this is aligned with this mindset and loss of major interest in worldly endeavours.

 

[northape]

Taking 4 or 5 harmala seeds chewed and held sublingually for a few minutes then eaten before going to bed can work, especially if combined with meditation and lucid dream practices. Dreams will be enhanced significantly but I have also found these harmala induced dreams can be a path of connection to that terrain and access to interacting with it more.

Thank you. Funny thing, my condition applies to the whole visual center, so the capacity to see dreams is diminished. I'm kind of fine with it at this point, but I still try different methods from time to time. My recent insights are to try a pranayama practice to clean my channels and buy an eye mask

Yet the path is generally one of self practice although there are teachers yes, but the Buddha’s last words were supposed to have been "All things that are put together come apart. Work to your own salvation with diligence".

Yes, yet that's just the first turn of the wheel of Dharma - Hinayana. They develop these ideas further down the road

This is great advice yes, but the emphasis is on the individual. Christians I had spoken to in the past would state that "the issue is you are relying only on yourself whereas I have God" and I would dismiss this as wishful thinking and just a belief. Psychedelics in particular Harmala and DMT have proven otherwise however, and for me it goes beyond Buddhism, unless they are saying the Dharmakaya can directly communicate with you?

I consider Sri Ramana my root guru because his teachings lit the flame of wisdom in me. Consequently, any other tradition looks like his teachings, hehe. God is yourself; that's the light that brings life to the ego. They have a term for it in Vajrayana, but I can't remember. Dharmakaya can manifest as whatever is needed. It's similar to avatars in the Hindu tradition. I'm not an expert in any of these, but I see commonalities everywhere. They say Sri Ramana manifested as God on Earth to guide his devotees. You see the pattern. All of it is just stories for us to relate to something beyond all names and forms

There is direct precence of the Highest, not only directly communicating but even physically interacting with my system as well as directing consciousness to higher states well beyond my normal capability. So this is a challenge to the traditional Buddhist framework in my view, unless there are some hidden esoteric schools out there that acknowledge direct intervention from the Dharmakaya.

There is a term in Buddhism - 84,000 dharma doors. There is also a famous Q&A between Sri Ramana and Yogananda:

Yogananda: How is the spiritual uplift of the people to be effected? What are the instructions to be given to them?
Maharshi: They differ according to the temperaments of the individuals and according to the spiritual ripeness of their minds. There cannot be any instruction en masse.

We all resonate with what fits our nature, and that's how it's supposed to be. There is no real truth on our level - just the means to get there. I remember reading that Buddhist philosophy is supreme (especially Madhyamaka, which emphasizes "my view is no view"), but practically Advaita is more relevant for the human psyche. Buddhists point to the same things, but they use too many terms to do it, imo. It took me a while to see that

Even at 1.5g/2.0g, I get this feeling of losing my mind/going insane but not in a "bad trip" way. I get this feeling of diving deep into my body as if I were falling into the ocean with only the observer state that remains, during that process, I'll have all sorts of imagery coming up to the surface, sometimes of alien nature, the losing my mind feeling feels more like the natural ego attachments that dissolve, I'll also have feelings like maybe I wasted "my life", or that I was all wrong regarding how I perceive and experience reality, it's physically very unpleasant but It goes away.

Rue is not that dangerous. It's an anxiolytic too, so getting a really bad trip on just rue is close to impossible. Your system seems to be sensitive, and that's a good thing. It shows that you're primed for this medicine. Go slow and explore

It's related to my way of living too I think. I lost all personal will regarding achieving or attaining something. I truly think that everything in this reality is a distraction to the infinite self, even the sense of being someone which makes it quite "difficult" to operate in a day to day basis in current modern society where too much importance is given to the character, the individual, achieving things, constantly pursuing something "outside", constant actions aiming at maintaining the "false" self. And sometimes those thoughts and feeling I've mentioned earlier will arise, which I think are just normal, that's why I just observe and don't give that much importance even if it can be hard sometimes because most of the thing outside reflects the opposite, but it is what it is, it's part of Samsara.

Yes and no. What you say is basically a story you've created. Samsara is just a story, too. In any esoteric tradition, they say that there is no difference between samsara and nirvana. These labels exist only on our level. Sri Ramana always advised people to work on themselves from within. It's a personal affair inside your own mind. Do your duty, live your life in society, but do investigate who is doing all these things. By investigate, we mean paying attention to your sense of self or being. That's it. Everything else is just stories that the mind tells.

To ask the mind to kill itself is like making the thief the policeman. He will go with you and pretend to catch the thief, but nothing will be gained. So you must turn inward and see where the mind rises from, and then it will cease to exist.

I have to say that I have never gone really deep with Harmala brew alone because of the nausea and body temperature fluctuations put me off, but it may be worth going back and seeing through what may be an adaptation phase, or at least significantly upping the Harmala dosage and placing less emphasis on the DMT subsequently.

Please do. I feel you'll be pleasantly surprised. After years of dmt-heavy brews, I came back to a simple rue tea. Lots of what I thought were dmt effects actually came from rue.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

I'm wondering if taking 1.5g twice a day will help reach that adaptation in a more gentle manner because each time I take a dose higher than 2g I feel like I'm loosing my mind.

Im not fully sure but i think spreading out the dose changes the alkaloid ratio, i believe it gives more harmine and less harmaline, not fully sure tho but i think it does because when redosing the effects feel different not just stronger or weaker, i would say tho imo its better to just take your full dose by daytime and not redose.

And i know what you mean by feeling like your going crazy, dont pay attention to it, harmalas are extremely forgiving if you dont keep fighting back, the feeling of going crazy is nothing like what you might get from psychedelics or even weed, when you feel like the dose is hitting too hard try to sit somewhere alone with no noise at all or anything distracting and just breathe slowly, dont touch your phone and just fully relax your body, its pretty easy on harmalas unlike psychedelics, youll find yourself forgetting the uncomfortable feeling pretty quickly.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Its very interesting to me hearing these very trippy reports with Harmala tea alone...its worth remembering that the Ayahuasca plant is actually the Caapi not the DMT and it is also considered active on its own. I have to say that I have never gone really deep with Harmala brew alone because of the nausea and body temperature fluctuations put me off, but it may be worth going back and seeing through what may be an adaptation phase, or at least significantly upping the Harmala dosage and placing less emphasis on the DMT subsequently.

Harmalas containing herbs are very good at integrating spiritual knowledge and energy in the physical body (that's what my wife and I felt), it is by itself very grounding and aid in maitaining a feeling of safety despite the circumstances. I do agree however that taking the brew everyday is very challenging, I reduce it to a shot that I'll swish before swallowing it. I truly believe that the bile released in consequence to the bitter taste plays a role in assisting the body at releasing stagnant emotions and energies, I've tried grounding the seeds and eating them but it didn't feel the same.

This is ultimately true. However don't forget that there is always a grounding of some form be it a monastic community of support or similar network, for those who wanted to persue that to its extent. You will find much more resonance with spiritual practitioners in general than within psychedelic users I have found, all though there can obviously be overlap but people use psychedelics for various reasons. However Harmalas are already quite niche and a particular type of individual would be drawn to them.

It's true that it is easier to connect/find resonance with spiritual practicioners as they are looking/seeking something greater than the self, however I noticed that for a lot it become part of their identity, a subtle form of attachment, it's just the ego disguised in another form, instead of sitting in pure presence. True enlightenement is so subtle and full of paradoxes, that even trying to explain it is "impossible", it goes way beyond what the human mind can perceive.

Your 'character and identity' in the world is also necessary. You have something to fulfill and attachments to work through, otherwise you would already one with the Infinite and wouldn't have come here. So the task of participating and sustaining this individual identity can be reconciled with the larger quest of transcending it. It may that you are more drawn to solitude, quiet, old buildings, cathedrals and graveyards or helping the needy for example as this is aligned with this mindset and loss of major interest in worldly endeavours.

I completely acknowledge your perspective. Who is the one fulfilling or doing the work? I think that the only fulfillement is presence as it allows thing to unfold as they are supposed to. Are we even truly separated with the infinite to begin with? Who is the one that is here/came here? Is there even a here and out there? True transcendance bring the realisation that there was nothing to truly transcend to begin with. That's why I was talking about the paradoxical depth of existence by itself, acknowleding and accepting the illusions of the self are also part of the liberation which include the "character", otherwise is it just spiritual bypassing, so yeah I agree with you on some points.

Yes and no. What you say is basically a story you've created. Samsara is just a story, too. In any esoteric tradition, they say that there is no difference between samsara and nirvana. These labels exist only on our level. Sri Ramana always advised people to work on themselves from within. It's a personal affair inside your own mind. Do your duty, live your life in society, but do investigate who is doing all these things. By investigate, we mean paying attention to your sense of self or being. That's it. Everything else is just stories that the mind tells.

The ego mind will always create stories, the key is just to be aware of it and shift the focus back to the eternal self, this is part of the human nature, the same thing can be applied to thoughts and emotions. Even the concept of inside/outside, within/without exist only through the mind perspective as it is not designed to perceive things beyond this realm.
The human langage is limited when it comes to describing/explaining things. What I tried to communicate was that I don't give too much attention/importance to wordly things, I spend most of my time either decocting and drinking herbs or laying down in tune with divine presence just smiling, observing, meditating (sometimes not eating for days), and sometimes there is those natural thoughts raising that maybe I'm insane or that I'/ wasting my life because I'm not doing what others are doing/pursuing which I just observe, they eventually subside and the focus goes back naturally to the eternal self.

Im not fully sure but i think spreading out the dose changes the alkaloid ratio, i believe it gives more harmine and less harmaline, not fully sure tho but i think it does because when redosing the effects feel different not just stronger or weaker, i would say tho imo its better to just take your full dose by daytime and not redose.

And i know what you mean by feeling like your going crazy, dont pay attention to it, harmalas are extremely forgiving if you dont keep fighting back, the feeling of going crazy is nothing like what you might get from psychedelics or even weed, when you feel like the dose is hitting too hard try to sit somewhere alone with no noise at all or anything distracting and just breathe slowly, dont touch your phone and just fully relax your body, its pretty easy on harmalas unlike psychedelics, youll find yourself forgetting the uncomfortable feeling pretty quickly.

Even the feeling of going crazy with psychedelics isn't that bad haha, I understand what you mean though, thanks

 

[northape]

What I tried to communicate was that I don't give too much attention/importance to wordly things, I spend most of my time either decocting and drinking herbs or laying down in tune with divine presence just smiling, observing, meditating (sometimes not eating for days), and sometimes there is those natural thoughts raising that maybe I'm insane or that I'/ wasting my life because I'm not doing what others are doing/pursuing which I just observe, they eventually subside and the focus goes back naturally to the eternal self.

Oh, I see. More power to you then, if you have the karma for such a life. Who said that we should follow social programming? It's just here for control and to make a select few extremely rich. Culture is not your friend, as Terence used to say. I've a favorite quote about it that I've posted on Nexus many times:

‘It Is No Measure of Health To Be Well-Adjusted to a Profoundly Sick Society’
- Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

[Panpsychic]

Harmalas containing herbs are very good at integrating spiritual knowledge and energy in the physical body (that's what my wife and I felt), it is by itself very grounding and aid in maitaining a feeling of safety despite the circumstances.

I would agree. It seems Harmalas are a 'path' unto themselves comparative with other spiritual disciplines.

I completely acknowledge your perspective. Who is the one fulfilling or doing the work? I think that the only fulfillement is presence as it allows thing to unfold as they are supposed to. Are we even truly separated with the infinite to begin with? Who is the one that is here/came here? Is there even a here and out there? True transcendance bring the realisation that there was nothing to truly transcend to begin with.

I don't fully agree with this, although I get where you are coming from. However to me there is no comparison between what is experienced in the depths/peaks of Harmala and DMT to the ordinary baseline consciousness. To me it is clearly a snapshot of where we are supposed to be 'going'. The everyday personality is the working ground but we need to transcend by letting go of attachments, this is the framework that has been handed down by the spiritual traditions and I see no need to fully abandon it. Paradoxical yes, but when it is said "there is nothing to transcend" could this be in fact a form of unconscious clininging to the ego and bodily identity? The path is fraught with pitfall, wrong turns and false awakening, so we need to be vigilant as to where we are and the views that form and what drives them.

Yes, yet that's just the first turn of the wheel of Dharma - Hinayana. They develop these ideas further down the road

I consider Sri Ramana my root guru because his teachings lit the flame of wisdom in me. Consequently, any other tradition looks like his teachings, hehe. God is yourself; that's the light that brings life to the ego. They have a term for it in Vajrayana, but I can't remember. Dharmakaya can manifest as whatever is needed. It's similar to avatars in the Hindu tradition. I'm not an expert in any of these, but I see commonalities everywhere. They say Sri Ramana manifested as God on Earth to guide his devotees. You see the pattern. All of it is just stories for us to relate to something beyond all names and forms

There is a term in Buddhism - 84,000 dharma doors. There is also a famous Q&A between Sri Ramana and Yogananda:

We all resonate with what fits our nature, and that's how it's supposed to be. There is no real truth on our level - just the means to get there. I remember reading that Buddhist philosophy is supreme (especially Madhyamaka, which emphasizes "my view is no view"), but practically Advaita is more relevant for the human psyche. Buddhists point to the same things, but they use too many terms to do it, imo. It took me a while to see that

Thats all very well to say, "they developed it later" but when the Buddha himself is totaly silent on "God" and speaks solely on self reliance, one has to question why or how he omitted to mention the divine guiding presence that is so apparant and directly involved in the psychedelic experience. It doesn't make much sense to me. I do get that some of the other frameworks are put in other ways, for example karma and divine providence, it has an intelligence about it not blind.

Yet still, the guidance aspect and direct intervention from Harmala and DMT is not the same thing as standard meditation as I am famillar, at least within the Buddhist framework. I get the appeal of perrenialism 'all roads' but I am honestly more of the view nowadays that 'Brahman' or God Consciousness is something beyond what the Buddha was teaching during his actual lifetime. Most people I have spoken to feel the psychedelic experience affirms ideas like Advaita more closely than Buddhism for this reason, and Mystic traditions more generally. Its good that people can find a way to reconcile Dharma teachings with this, but fundamentally it appears to me its not the closest framework for describing what is experienced, as unsettling as that may be for some, myself included.

Please do. I feel you'll be pleasantly surprised. After years of dmt-heavy brews, I came back to a simple rue tea.

Since drinking the Harmala tea before smoking DMT is my standard way, it shouldnt be too much of a challenge to just up the dosage before the smoke, or perhaps the smoke wont be needed. I have been working with Harmalas before I ever got hold of DMT, but as stated when many years ago I tried big Harmala tea doses, I got only mild effects but major physiologic changes which lent me to generally characterize it as an adjunctive sacrament rather than a stand alone one. This can be revisited and I am actually excited to see what pure Harmala tea, or even ground seeds directly at stronger doses when one gets more adapted to it, can bring forth.

Lots of what I thought were dmt effects actually came from rue.

Can you elaborate on some of the effects you say you previously attibuted to the DMT but now realize are the Rue tea?

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

I don't fully agree with this, although I get where you are coming from. However to me there is no comparison between what is experienced in the depths/peaks of Harmala and DMT to the ordinary baseline consciousness. To me it is clearly a snapshot of where we are supposed to be 'going'. The everyday personality is the working ground but we need to transcend by letting go of attachments, this is the framework that has been handed down by the spiritual traditions and I see no need to fully abandon it. Paradoxical yes, but when it is said "there is nothing to transcend" could this be in fact a form of unconscious clininging to the ego and bodily identity? The path is fraught with pitfall, wrong turns and false awakening, so we need to be vigilant as to where we are and the views that form and what drives them.

The line between ego illusion's and truth is indeed very thin.

 

[northape]

I don't fully agree with this, although I get where you are coming from. However to me there is no comparison between what is experienced in the depths/peaks of Harmala and DMT to the ordinary baseline consciousness. To me it is clearly a snapshot of where we are supposed to be 'going'. The everyday personality is the working ground but we need to transcend by letting go of attachments, this is the framework that has been handed down by the spiritual traditions and I see no need to fully abandon it. Paradoxical yes, but when it is said "there is nothing to transcend" could this be in fact a form of unconscious clininging to the ego and bodily identity? The path is fraught with pitfall, wrong turns and false awakening, so we need to be vigilant as to where we are and the views that form and what drives them.

Any view will lead you astray. They are all mind stories in the end. You're presenting one more fairy tale here, imo.
The only truth within my reach that I can fall back on is Being. That's real and here all the time. This state is unmistakable, and is the base of every sentient being.

Thats all very well to say, "they developed it later" but when the Buddha himself is totaly silent on "God" and speaks solely on self reliance, one has to question why or how he omitted to mention the divine guiding presence that is so apparant and directly involved in the psychedelic experience. It doesn't make much sense to me. I do get that some of the other frameworks are put in other ways, for example karma and divine providence, it has an intelligence about it not blind.

The teaching ought to be according to the taught! It's not like there is no God, but Buddha tells you what you need to hear at your level of maturity. Read "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi" if you want to see how it functions. Sri Ramana advised a multitude of different practices, and his take on the truth shifted from person to person.

"Later development" is just that. People were ready to hear a deeper truth. Shakyamuni laid a foundation for that to happen, though.
We can't show the truth to another, only point to it

Yet still, the guidance aspect and direct intervention from Harmala and DMT is not the same thing as standard meditation as I am famillar, at least within the Buddhist framework. I get the appeal of perrenialism 'all roads' but I am honestly more of the view nowadays that 'Brahman' or God Consciousness is something beyond what the Buddha was teaching during his actual lifetime. Most people I have spoken to feel the psychedelic experience affirms ideas like Advaita more closely than Buddhism for this reason, and Mystic traditions more generally. Its good that people can find a way to reconcile Dharma teachings with this, but fundamentally it appears to me its not the closest framework for describing what is experienced, as unsettling as that may be for some, myself included.

You're writing like there are a bunch of truths out there. The truth is One and God is One. Only this One exists no matter what name-form you put on it. All of them are just road signs. The teaching ought to be according to the taught! You resonate with a certain view and use it to go beyond any view, so yeah "all roads" lead to the same place. Your depiction and relation to the place may differ, but there is only One reality.

Can you elaborate on some of the effects you say you previously attibuted to the DMT but now realize are the Rue tea?

The first main thing is the spiritual opening. I thought that it was mostly from the rue & dmt combo, but a simple rue tea easily connects you to divine. It does so in a different manner than dmt, but the bridge is more stable and this connection is easier to bring into everyday life. The second one for me was the antidepressant effect. Rue is actually even better on this front than dmt. It slowly changes your physiology and attunes you to a higher vibration.

 

[somanaut]

guidance aspect and direct intervention from Harmala and DMT is not the same thing as standard meditation as I am famillar, at least within the Buddhist framework

I love that you're wrangling with this and I'm so glad you found a path to the living wisdom. I would say Vajrayana and much of Buddhism is helping pop the bubble of reification. The mind has a strong tendency toward certainty, solidity. But there is no ground to stand on. Awareness is completely transparent, it can't be seen yet somehow it's the most luminous thing. Entering through the gate of emptiness effectively disarms the habitual Doer.

But what I think I hear you're exclaiming is that at its core, there seems to be an infinite compassionate intelligence that wants to awaken, wants to guide us into higher consciousness. Who knows but that seems to be part of my experience too. Cool stuff huh?

"I teach suffering and the end of suffering."

 

[northape]

Please watch the full movie if you haven't already. It speaks about the same themes.
The truth is simple and will forever remain so.

 

[rkba]

Exactly, don't focus on the 'name plates'. Focus and examine on what is behind them. Every individual will 'see' something else, something that will fit their Being.

Ram Dass said it beautifully: "We're fascinated by the words, but where we meet is in the silence behind them."

 

[Panpsychic]

I love that you're wrangling with this and I'm so glad you found a path to the living wisdom. I would say Vajrayana and much of Buddhism is helping pop the bubble of reification. The mind has a strong tendency toward certainty, solidity. But there is no ground to stand on. Awareness is completely transparent, it can't be seen yet somehow it's the most luminous thing. Entering through the gate of emptiness effectively disarms the habitual Doer.

But what I think I hear you're exclaiming is that at its core, there seems to be an infinite compassionate intelligence that wants to awaken, wants to guide us into higher consciousness. Who knows but that seems to be part of my experience too. Cool stuff huh?

"I teach suffering and the end of suffering."

I am yes. The Buddhist teachings are very clear systematic and complete. And yet God has just come in and superceeded all in a matchless way.

I am not interested in philosophical conjecture, I am talking about reference points for direct experience of these things.
The Eternal Glory of God is what is unmistakable and undeniable on Rue tea and DMT, consistent with Mystic traditions in Christianity, Advaita and others, and the direct intervention alluded to earlier guiding the path.

The Buddha didn't acknowledge this or encourage paying homage to or seeking this as support. Once again psychedelics have a power to reveal but go beyond different traditions and show their limitations, even the most venerated and authoritative, and in historic religious terms the Buddha pretty much tops that list I would say and the teachings make sense.

Yet it seems God Consciousness says "sure, but now let me show you this. "

What in the name of God is that, and how is it even possible?? Yet it is, as you and I and many others know.

I can say I have had dialogue with experienced Buddhist meditators with many years of practice who even lead retreats who have fundamentally said the experiences have meant they can no longer identify as 'Buddhist', but they generally keep this to themselves because the Buddhist path is otherwise great and very complete in itself - barring this omission of the Infinite Intelligence we can commune with that gives direct guidence and endows some of the higher meditation states effortlessly.

This is only an issue when you know about it though, which is why I generally don't introduce my Buddhist friends who are well on their path to psychedelics, to avoid this unsettling knowledge of a back door to the Ultimate guided by the Most High.

Any view will lead you astray. They are all mind stories in the end.

Yet how does the application of this square with our current life experience and the psychedelic enterprise?

According to Buddhist, and indeed perennialism which seeks unitive understanding between commonalities across tradition, there is right view, and there are wrong views.
So it isn't true to say "all views lead astray". Many do, but some don't which is the point.

Yes, views need to ultimately be transcended after we have walked the path they point to. Since we have not yet walked the path to completion ( I make no claim to Enlightenment), views are necessary at this level.

You're presenting one more fairy tale here, imo.
The only truth within my reach that I can fall back on is Being. That's real and here all the time. This state is unmistakable, and is the base of every sentient being.

Your fairytale is likewise that "just be, and all will take care of itself" and is imo, one that works for you now.

Perhaps all you want to point to is the here and now. This doesn't answer or resolve these issues for me but it is a major and fundamental part of the process. If you are satisfied with this and have a "I'll leave it there, and then hope for the best when life comes to an end" then thats fine and that is your view and your approach. It's not a universal panacea however that applies to others, and isnt necessarily what the Buddhists are teaching either, at the beginning or later, aside from maybe Zen.

The teaching ought to be according to the taught! It's not like there is no God, but Buddha tells you what you need to hear at your level of maturity. Read "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi" if you want to see how it functions. Sri Ramana advised a multitude of different practices, and his take on the truth shifted from person to person.

"Later development" is just that. People were ready to hear a deeper truth. Shakyamuni laid a foundation for that to happen, though.
We can't show the truth to another, only point to it

Regards the Dharmakaya or "The Godless God of Buddhism", I know that the narrative of some later traditions is that it developed later...but again I have a hard time reconciling the Buddha's silence on direct intervention and guidance from On High as experienced with psychedelics, which he also isnt recorded as talking about much if at all.
I also struggle with what, to me could be a form of conceit, to say that those who were born at the time of the Buddha himself including his direct disciples were somehow at a 'less level of maturity' than later generations and not ready for the more advanced teachings. Surely they were more advanced, so needed less.

So the absence of mention of God by the Buddha, something that not only is felt but even directs experience for me psychically and physically during trips is not a small issue but if you have reconciled it in a way satisfactory to you then good for you. To me yes, I can reconcile it in that they are perhaps different paths on different sides of the mountain. Which is why I said that as I see it, Buddhism is not the best framework for understanding what occurs in this central aspect, although overall there are a lot of very relevant teachings there.

 

[northape]

Your fairytale is likewise that "just be, and all will take care of itself" and is imo, one that works for you now.

Exactly. I see that we're more in agreement than I initially thought. Holding anything too tightly will only make you suffer later on.

My view is still conceptual even if I have faith in it. That's why I wrote that "any view will lead you astray." Being is kind of hard to deny, but I sense that I do not approach it in an exactly direct manner either. I like Zen instruction to just open your tight hand and let everything be. That's how I feel Being is too. You just are. Let all the mess fix itself. The mud in a glass of water tends to settle at the bottom in the end.

I can't say if that's the right direction from my perspective. Excessive thinking and complex frameworks just keep me trapped. In the end, I'm a simple guy.