Ayahuasca Seperatism

[obliguhl]

I don't know, but...it seems that a good portion of ayahuasca drinkers reside outside the psychedelic community in the sense that they are kinda elitist in their ways. I have no hard facts, this is my impression from reading related forums but they feel like a bunch of preachers at times. Perhaps this is because ayahuasca is strongly associated with all kinds of religious organisations? Perhaps it attracts people who need "justifications" such as "Oh it's an ancient brew and i'm just honoring an old tradition!". People who are highly moralistic and conservative at their core and need "higher power" to justify their drug use ?

Maybe i'm wrong about this...but this whole seperation really irks me. Why not mushrooms? Or San Pedro? What makes ayahuasca a better teacher? So many "experts" out there ...and film makers rehashing the old-old again and again...jungle hotels with charlatan-shamans - this just doesn't seem right. I don't have anything against shamans or religious groups for that matter, but i'd rather see the psychedelic community be more united. In some forums, you are not even allowed to mention smokable DMT...holy hyperspace elf!

Ist there anything that can be done about this? I don't want to experience the day "ayahuasqueros" are marching the streets demanding a stronger control on "horrible drugs" such as magic mushrooms ...

 

[Doodazzle]

I hear you.

I suspect this is a symptom of our society an it's attitudes towards drugs.

Many people in the counter culture see drugs as "naughty fun". How was lsd and mushrooms first presented to our society? Tune in turn on and drop out, man!....like, in the 60's, acid and rock and roll. Today, ayahuasca and church. I really won't offer any opinions on the matter, just that I find it interesting, watching western society, integrate the psychedelic experience. A slow and clumsy integration process, one might say.

The churchy people can be self-righteous with their medicine. The rave kids can be irresponsible/irreverent with theirs. I've been guilty of both, at times.

 

[DeDao]

I see it more as a group of people that separate themselves because some of the drug community make ill-considered decisions and are flat out painful to talk to sometimes. I am not saying that they are better; of course, there is no such thing as better.

What I am saying is that there are some people that feel safer and closer with what ever God is if they stick to a strict religious set and setting.

I can completely understand how people feel this way. For a while I wanted to make sure everything was right to the par. Only now am I realizing that I am my own shaman and can and should make alterations to diets, settings recommended and other things of the sort. This is what allows the practice to evolve for the individual.

Don't take offense to my post of think I am for one side or the other. I simply saw the topic and became interested because I have noticed the same thing you have.

I am not sure if we can or cannot mention the other forum, which I believe you are speaking about, on this forum or what, but I will refrain for now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my observation there does seem to be a line drawn between people who just use ayahuasca and perhaps san pedro and people that use mushrooms and then may drink booze and smoke opium on the weekends. It's all perception, some chemicals work for others and others just have their own style.

Honestly, I wouldn't and didn't think much of it. It's natural for groups or cliques to start within communities. Even if the thing that "brings us all together" is something reminds us that we are all one. Fishy business eh? Hehe.

Anyway. There is my observation and opinion on the subject.

DeDao

 

[DeDao]

The churchy people can be self-righteous with their medicine. The rave kids can be irresponsible/irreverent with theirs. I've been guilty of both, at times.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

I don't know, but...it seems that a good portion of ayahuasca drinkers reside outside the psychedelic community in the sense that they are kinda elitist in their ways. I have no hard facts, this is my impression from reading related forums but they feel like a bunch of preachers at times. Perhaps this is because ayahuasca is strongly associated with all kinds of religious organisations? Perhaps it attracts people who need "justifications" such as "Oh it's an ancient brew and i'm just honoring an old tradition!". People who are highly moralistic and conservative at their core and need "higher power" to justify their drug use ?

Elitism is common to human groups.
It is potentially unavoidable and usually pertains to common views or belief validation, like a mob.

You can find it anywhere you look.

 

[jamie]

I know what you are talking about and I just avoid it. There is alot of rationalism/reductionism(and moral absolutism) in that whole scene I find, which is ironic since many of the people I am referring to would claim they are the opposite of a rationalist or a reductionist..yet from my perspective I see a lot of it nonetheless. It's plants ve plant extractions, western ecclectic traditions vs amazonian traditions..at home vs with a "shaman"...bla bla bla.

I dont care really what people think, as long as to a certain degree they just keep it to themselves.

 

[jamie]

"In my observation there does seem to be a line drawn between people who just use ayahuasca and perhaps san pedro and people that use mushrooms and then may drink booze and smoke opium on the weekends"

There is the same thing with ayahuasca and san pedro though. I have met people who will smoke heroin on friday and eat san pedro on sunday..people who drink ayahuasca and then get hammered 3 days later..and I have known people who will use mushrooms ceremonially and not take any other substances.

Mushrooms are just more available..thats all. If san pedro was available in the same way you would see more of that same sort of use that you see with mushrooms, which is just a reflection of mushrooms being more widespread due to availability. We have already seen how DMT can be used by some people when it becomes easily available for too many people who would otherwise not put in the extra effort to obtain it like growing/harvesting plants or doing their own extractions.

Not to mention some tribes drink ayahuasca traditionally and get wildy drunk at the same time.

 

[universecannon]

as joebono said of the many forums...the shroomery is like getting high in high school...the nexus is like getting high in the matrix...and the ayahuasca forums is like getting high in church

 

[DeDao]

as joebono said of the many forums...the shroomery is like getting high in high school...the nexus is like getting high in the matrix...and the ayahuasca forums is like getting high in church

Funny stuff.

You can take the red pill or the blue pill Neo..

 

[Agave]

Mmmmm, I dunno. The way I see it is that there is also another factor at work here. For many on the aya forum it's percieved that the only argument for legal use is through religious freedom and it's also a fact that many of those people there are also S.D. members. I think that talk of extracting DMT is discouraged because it is an illegal activity while brewing is still more of a gray area. I think the mods over there want to want to at least appear more responsible. I think it is an important distinction if the argument for legal use is to be taken seriously. Anyone can go to youtube and watch high school kids vape DMT recreationally, the Aya forum wants no association with that. Plus using ayahuasca on a routine basis is just not that much fun, it requires some work and dedication.

That said, I believe that people from both forums (Aya and Nexus) are all over the place as far as psych use goes with the aya forum maybe a little more spiritual, conservative, and cautious. Maybe a bit older too but that's hard to say. As for myself, mushrooms are still my first love , Shroomery or no:roll: .

 

[jamie]

Being a member, I have a lot of love and respect for the ayahuasca forums..I do at times percieve an atmosphere of..well I dont know what to call it..not really elitism..it's not fair to call it that..

I just see things like this... DMT is all around is..beta carbolines are all around us. They always have been. Always will be most likely. DMT is important..it is amazing, but we have not always been able to "mine" it from the environment becasue sometimes it is in low ammounts in certain plants..other plants might have undsirable alkaloids..so the only solution was plants really easy to brew or extract with pure profiles..

..but now thats not so much an issue..we have teks to purify the extracts more so even .01% is usable..and seperation of undesirables is something we are learning..

So NOW is the time for a more true global DMT culture(based on local plants etc for those who are into this stuff)..for globalhuasca. Extracting, vaping etc..at home use especially becasue we are NOT talking about only amazonian traditions all play a role in this emerging understanding of these tryptamines and beta carbolines in the environment, and what it means for humans to relate to them. Science is making something new possible.

Things like the Daime are like the tip of the iceburg really. Our current level of intelligence is making way for a these things to reach far greater an audience than any existing ayahuasca church and I think out of that will emmerge new and unique folk traditions.

Working with local species like grasses etc even if you have to extract them is also far more sustainable..it brings us into closer working relation to the immediate environment around us in a very intimate way. I think ayahuasca is just what kickstarted this awareness.

..and you can extend this beyond just DMT to cacti, salvia and mushrooms etc..all are doable locally almost everywhere and more are doing this now than ever before..I think it is the mind of nature reaching out to us in this time like never before..extracting alkaloids or smoking them does not change that dialogue one bit..it's all valid and when it fits you just wear it.

 

[obliguhl]

First of all, it wasn't my aim to discredit the ayahuasca forums, this is why i omitted their name. I also have nothing against sites like the shroomery as I do think they offer fantastic information! That's exactly what i'm hinting at: Everyone got something unique to contribute. The shroomery shows us how to have fun with psychedelics, the ayahuasca forums how to be in ritual with them and the nexus how to discuss them in a scientific context. There is really no need to be split up. I also don't believe that elitism is "human nature" but i do believe that social groups form based on interest, nothing wrong with that.

It's the tone of moral self-righteousness that makes me worry that the ayahuasca world is drifting more and more away. Agave, you made a great point as to using a religious approach to appear legit to the regulatory bodies. But don't you think that there are quite a few people who consider ayahuasca the one and only legit medicine ?

Jamie has shared a very important vision concerning the establishment of a new psychedelic culture. That might be one of the reasons why i'm so sceptical of the way most people seem to treat ayahuasca. They're basically piggybacking on a old amazonian tradition. This tradition makes a whole lot of sense for these indigenous people, but for us Westerners ? I don't believe you can simply transplant this culture, it makes no sense! A shaman may give you a good feeling and he may even manipulate the hidden realms, but i bet it is a whole ton harder to understand and integrate what he is telling you about traveling to the belly of the snake to retrieve your lost soul etc...WTF does that mean to us ? This culture doesn't speak our language and even if we want it to be the only legit way to take ayahuasca, it is not and can never be...

 

[Silly(c)One]

I think there are all kinds of people out there, and it's tricky to make generalizations based on a few hundreds people chatting on the internet...

Just as an example, "my" shaman (spiritual teacher/master, what have you) is trained in both shipibo and mexican traditions. For my awakening ceremony, we drank mushrooms, he played drums, sang icaros and played native american flutes while applying ericksonnian hypnosis techniques...

At the end of the ceremony, I just asked him : "but but but, then, I mean, all the plant teachers have the same goal ?" and he answered : "of course, but they all have their own advantages and so everyone can bind with his prefered teacher... or learn from them all "

Something I'm certain about, is that it's not because I met with Ayahuasca that I'll stop my relationship with teonanacatl.
And that all that matters in MY universe, is how I feel about things.
I follow my heart, and try not to be disturbed by the feelings of others. (2nd toltech agreement)

 

[Mr.Peabody]

...That might be one of the reasons why i'm so sceptical of the way most people seem to treat ayahuasca. They're basically piggybacking on a old amazonian tradition. This tradition makes a whole lot of sense for these indigenous people, but for us Westerners ? I don't believe you can simply transplant this culture, it makes no sense! ...

I completely agree. I think that's why the Nexus exists. We are in the process of creating our own culture about it. The great thing is this site tries so hard to be respectable, presentable, understandable, and above all safe.

It was said earlier, but I think our society is clumsily integrating psychedelic use, and a fractured psychedelic community is probably a result of that.

There never will be one solid psychedelic alliance, though, and there really shouldn't be. People think in different ways, and are just plain different. Not better or worse, so there should be different shades to this whole thing. The real issue right now is just the way we go about bringing it into acceptance by society, and I think that's the big reason for such a split. Everyone has their own way they think it should be done.

 

[Jin]

That might be one of the reasons why i'm so sceptical of the way most people seem to treat ayahuasca. They're basically piggybacking on a old amazonian tradition. This tradition makes a whole lot of sense for these indigenous people, but for us Westerners ? I don't believe you can simply transplant this culture, it makes no sense! A shaman may give you a good feeling and he may even manipulate the hidden realms, but i bet it is a whole ton harder to understand and integrate what he is telling you about traveling to the belly of the snake to retrieve your lost soul etc...WTF does that mean to us ? This culture doesn't speak our language and even if we want it to be the only legit way to take ayahuasca, it is not and can never be...

i agree with this totally

At the end of the ceremony, I just asked him : "but but but, then, I mean, all the plant teachers have the same goal ?" and he answered : "of course, but they all have their own advantages and so everyone can bind with his prefered teacher... or learn from them all Pleased"

true , yet learning from your favourite teacher is truly a blessing and results in quite consistent results , i have in my past worked extensively with LSD , yet these days i only like smoking DMT and drinking mimohuasca and am working only with this

 

[obliguhl]

I completely agree. I think that's why the Nexus exists. We are in the process of creating our own culture about it.

Are we? I think the nexus has grown to be..well, perhaps not anti-symbolic, but more deeply rooted in the tradition of positivist science. How does this and ritual mix? Sure, western traditions have certain symbolic healing elements and rituals. The doctor (shaman) wears a white robe, he prescribes small colored stones full of healing energy (pills) etc but ritual is not something we really treasure consciously in our healing traditions.

 

[Silly(c)One]

Ritual must be one of the most difficult thing to express on a forum through internet...
Words are sooo limitative when it comes to THE Experience, don't you think ?
I already have huge difficulties in talking about what happened during my ceremonies with the people I communed with...

And before I had the chance to participate to my first ceremony, when you guys were talking about sage, purification etc, I would find it weird and "stupid"...
Nowadays, it's the basis of my Faith...

Damn Logos

Also, I have friends with festive psychedelic use history, but once I have one ritual/ceremony with them, their view on the matter changes completely... All my friends who had ceremonies are using entheogens as the basis of their spirituality, all the others are just still partying and living controlled by their ego. (LSD, MDMA, mostly... They usually can't stand anything with eyes closed, they like the pretty colours and the morphing walls)

And if you listen to icaros from the Amazon (Ayahuasca), songs by Maria Sabina (mushroom) and songs by native americans or Huichols (Peyotl/San Pedro), you can't help notice how similar they are... It's the same thing, really.

 

[jamie]

^you have obviousily been going to all the wrong festivals:thumb_up:

There are ones out there that are like mass 3 day long ceremonies, even complete with opening and closing ceremonies led by elders etc.

The psy festival culture and party culture are not necessarily the same thing IME..at least where I am there is a borad spectrum of them..and there are only certain ones I will bother to attend or dose at.

Mazatec mushroom chants, ayahuasca icaros and Huichol/NAC songs dont sound similar to me to be honest. I have listened to many of them. they are all beautiful but they dont all sound the same, at least to me.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

I completely agree. I think that's why the Nexus exists. We are in the process of creating our own culture about it.

Are we? I think the nexus has grown to be..well, perhaps not anti-symbolic, but more deeply rooted in the tradition of positivist science. How does this and ritual mix? Sure, western traditions have certain symbolic healing elements and rituals. The doctor (shaman) wears a white robe, he prescribes small colored stones full of healing energy (pills) etc but ritual is not something we really treasure consciously in our healing traditions.

You have a point. But what is a ritual anyway? Does it really connect one with spirits? Does it really remove bad energies? I respect anyone who believes in these types of ideas, and I do to some extent myself. But the main purpose of a ritual is to prepare the mind of the tripper for what they are about to do. Professional athletes have rituals for what they do. I have rituals for certain things, including tripping. Usually my pre-trip ritual is to clean the house, accomplish at least one task on my to-do list, and pseudo-ceremoniously consume my entheogen.

So, a lack of one set ritual is still a part of culture. And like Silly(c)One brought up, the internet changes things. I bet if we all regularly tripped together in a village type setting, we'd form very different ways about doing these things.

 

[jamie]

I think there is some confusion here as to what ceremony is and what ritual is. Shamanism from my perspective is not by nature ritualistic..I dont think shamanism is really ritual magick..though it can def be ceremonial magick. edit..well maybe-not sure if I even like the term ceremony in this context as it can imply a series of rituals but the way it is often applied to the ayahuasca context makes it hard to ignore.

Ritual implies symbolism. Shamanism moves beyond those symbols(well perhaps the use of a mesa makes that arguement more difficult)..Of course this is just my opinion.

Another working example is wicca and wtchcraft..wicca you see a lot of ritual magick..there is a structure there where the same things are done over and over again..same way eveyr time..these are rituals. Traditional witchcraft on the other hand from what we know did not necessarily work that way. There was is a lot of shamanic like trance work in trad craft and it can in some ways sort of be looked at as ceremonial but it doesnt require structured ritual the way wicca does..it is far more freeform and practical.

I would think something like the daime(which I dont think is shamanism) is far more ritualistic than the traditional context of ayahuasca use..which is more freeform..the ceremony flows in the direction that particular ceremony is going to flow..This would make sense also as the daime is known to use weaker brews, perhaps to maintain that order within the ritual. They do on occasion use stronger brews and I would imagine those sessions are far more chaotic.

My personal experience working with these different modalities and going off what I learned while studying anthropology I would say that with "shamanism"(or its counterparts) the structure of the ceremony is structured by the experience(the ayahuasca etc)..whereas in ritual magick the ritual is what implies the structure the experience unfolds into..

Shamanism is far more dynamic..less structured. It is not ritual. I guess I would say that shamanic "ceremonies" are beyond both ritual and ceremony. It is pure experience driven at it's core..where ritualistic and even ceremonial magic are driven first by the structure that requires ego stuctures to put in place. Often in shamanism one goes beyond those ego boundries, so ritual is irrelevant and meaningless.

You can always argue that they drink in the dark, they sing icaros, they might fast or w/e so thats ritual..and I wouldnt dissagree but there is still a very big distinction between ritual magick and what goes on within the shamanic world.

Sorry to go a bit off topic..anyway my point is that this stuff is not so cut and dry. There are people who would try to say otherwise but oh well..egos love to apply structure.