Becoming somewhat jaded

[joedirt]

I've noticed that over the last few years I've grown more and more jaded in some respects.

I find that I often times would rather just remain silent than speak up these days.
The reason is because after ~40 years I've sort of arrived at the subconscious conclusion
that there is no reason to discuss anything with most people as most people have already
made up their minds and have no interest in what you think...and in fact will most likely
judge you for thinking differently.

It's not only that, but I'm increasingly not even enjoying the kind of conversations I used to
such as spirituality, free will discussions, or even out there science topics. Why?
Well the reason is because I feel people by and large have become so polarized that for
the most part real discussion don't ever happen. By real discussion I mean conversations were
people take the time to really understand another persons point of view. Even at the Nexus this
rarely ever happens... Why?

I really do try and take a believe nothing, allow anything, question everything approach to life.
Perhaps because I take this path when few others do leads to me feeling jaded?

I honestly don't care if I'm right or wrong so long as I arrive at the truth? This is a personality
transformation that happened over a few years, but eventually I just found it so much more freeing
than digging in my heels...yet so few actually take this approach? Why?

I guess I'm kind of arriving at the point were I feel like it's almost impossible to relate to other
humans on any of the big topics like religion, politics, philosophy. But honestly it's beyond that.

When I go to my wife's house she always has a list of 'don't talk' about these topics....and I'm usually
like ok so you got rid of science, religion, politics, and philosophy? Are you sure you want me to come home with you?
I honestly don't talk much at her parents house...

You know one thing meditation has taught me is that we have very little control over the thoughts that pop in our minds at any given time.
I try to use this realization to cultivate compassion for others...
I can genuinely understand the hard mental states that most people are stuck in because I've free myself of some of them.

While this does increase my compassion for them, I still honestly feel like most people are just simple biological machines that are only slightly more aware than most animals. I know it's wrong to feel this way...and this is why I'm reaching out. how do you guy's over come this...if you do?

So I'm mostly asking this to the older members, but anyone that has felt this way feel free to answer.

How do you deal with this? Do you feel that as you get closer to middle age (or older) that you find it very hard to engage in conversations or discussions that you once found interesting?

BTW This isn't depression related in the least. I've been in very good spirits lately, great job...awesome wife. Just something that's been on my mind.

 

[dreamer042]

I'm going to re-post my dalai lama quote from the fitting in at college thread since I feel it's pertinent

...I always believe we are the same; we are all human beings. Of course, there may be differences in cultural background or way of life, there may be differences in our faith, or we may be of a different color, but we are human beings, consisting of the human body and the human mind. Our physical structure is the same, and our mind and emotional nature are also the same. Wherever I meet people, I always have the feeling that I am encountering another human being, just like myself. I find it is much easier to communicate with others on that level. If we emphasize specific characteristics, like I am Tibetan or I am Buddhist, then there are differences. But those things are secondary. If we can leave the differences aside, I think we can easily communicate, exchange ideas, and share experiences

If we focus on differences we tend to divide ourselves, we are all humans sharing the crazy experience of life on this little rock floating in infinity. As cliche as it sounds we are all in this together, and it's very helpful to approach others from that standpoint. Sure we all have different values, beliefs, ideas, and ideals and that's great, diversity is never a bad thing, the problem lies in dividing ourselves over our differences when we should in fact be celebrating them.

Personally I like to remind myself that I am but a lowly student of life and pretend that every other being in this world is a divinely enlightened master here for the sole purpose of helping me learn the lessons I need to grow and evolve. I try my best to set aside the different ideals and values of others and instead look for the qualities I admire in them and try to learn from them how I can begin to cultivate those qualities in myself. Not that it always works lol, but it is something I strive for and when I do manage to accomplish it, it really does seem to help me relate to others better.

-Namaste ♥

 

[mad_banshee]

Joedirt,
Very relevant topic for me.
I'm almost 60. I'm really feeling like most everyone on this planet is nucking futs.
Look at the Chinese crying and sobbing like nutjobs over the death of their leader, and this is the norm in China??? Really? Very freeky.
Just look at the long list of nutjobs ruinning for president...really? How can they colllect such a group of whackos, and then present them for nomination to the highest office in the nation?????
How many people that I know that I can even talk to about my use of entheogens and get anythings but a blank stare and disapproval? ( very few, almost nobody )
I quite often feel very alone and like maybe I'm one of the few aware in the land of the Stepford people. And ( for example) if I do share my true entheogen loving interests, will I be risking my very livelyhood and freedom and risk being put in a cage by the fedralis? Quite possible.

 

[amor_fati]

Look at the Chinese crying and sobbing like nutjobs over the death of their leader, and this is the norm in China??? Really? Very freeky.

Wrong country, dude. Read up on totalitarian societies: How it works is that if the person next to you doesn't see you sobbing, they drop the dime because if the person next to them knows that they know but don't report it, that person will, then they too will have scary men busting down their door in the middle of the night, disappearing completely from record and memory. Inevitably, everyone sobs for the dear leader.

 

[applebaum]

I find that I often times would rather just remain silent than speak up these days.
The reason is because after ~40 years I've sort of arrived at the subconscious conclusion
that there is no reason to discuss anything with most people as most people have already
made up their minds and have no interest in what you think...and in fact will most likely
judge you for thinking differently.

I've arrived at a similar conclusion, but not quite the same. I think most peoples minds are made up and there's no sense in trying to convince anyone of the positions you hold, but what you can do is get them to talk about the positions they hold and explain why they hold those positions. If you love understanding this is the way to gain it anyway. Have them talk and you listen. You don't have to agree. If they are willing to give you a lesson in their world view for free, and most everyone is because people love to hear themselves talk, don't force them to learn from you. If a bookstore offered its books for free and was offended by your offers to pay, you wouldn't be upset by that.

If you want to convince people to adopt your own world view on a particular issue, I'd say the best thing to do would be to accept that no matter if you went out and preached full time, most people would never agree with you. The next best thing to do is to listen quietly and attentively to their position and ask honest questions. If their position is irrational the best way for them to realize that is to hear it from their own mouths, not yours. If their point of view is not as irrational as you had believed it to be you will have enriched yourself with a broader point of view.

This has led me to a lot of discussions of subject matters I really care nothing about. But by controlling myself and being a good listener for them I discipline my own mind and I can tell the other person gets a lot more joy out of the conversation than when I would dominate it. And it helps me to understand them, to know who they are, and that IS interesting to me.

 

[Lichen]

People do not have enough self doubt. It's one of greatest personal attributes you can have; to think that you yourself are wrong.

 

[dtrypt]

Pushing 40 as well... also jaded and feel like I've thought about and said everything there is to think and say. I used to alternate between being the class clown and the deep philosopher. Now I just feel lame and shallow...

Things change and I am tired of changing along with it...

 

[nexalizer]

Joedirt,
Very relevant topic for me.
I'm almost 60. I'm really feeling like most everyone on this planet is nucking futs.

I'm only 26 and I feel the same. The witnessing of so much injustice (war on drugs, war on terror, julian assange, megaupload.com, Lisbon Treaty, austerity measures, loss of civil rights, SOPA/PIPA etc), coverups, manipulation and lies in my short life, coupled with 99 out of 100 people not having a clue and apparently not caring as long as by the end of the day the TV works and the room is warm and Friday you can go out and get wasted.

I've come to realize society is not what they try to teach you in school. The whole damn thing is rotten. It makes me sick.

 

[dromedary]

I don't think you're becoming jaded, any of you, or if you are, I don't think it's such a bad thing. You are right about most of your points. People - especially young people - really are less amenable to truly open discussion when it comes to opinions about science, philosophy, politics and so on. We are living in the age of cynicism. You are not jaded to think so. It is the truth.

The same virtues of character that enabled the kind of discussion you fondly remember are responsible for your feelings of negativity towards the kind of polarised discussion that disturbs you today. To "become jaded" to me suggests that the source is something negative within you - I usually think of call centre workers becoming jaded by the misanthropy that dealing with angry people all day brings out in them. What I see when I read your post is the reaction from something positive in you to a world increasingly distant from your values. The difference is admittedly subtle, but I think that it is important.

Having said all that, please allow me an opportunity on behalf of the cynical younger generation (who I think might be the worst offenders!) to explain why we are the way we are.

The first thing is that many of us grew up with the internet. A few years from now, people who were born after the creation of Wikipedia will be old enough to vote in some jurisdictions. For the first time kids and teens are able to get answers to all their little curiosities immediately, comprehensively, and more reliably than any parent, friend or authority figure can hope to provide. Clicking through page after page on Wikipedia is the new 'why?' game that younger kids annoy their parents with, only Wikipedia essentially always has the answer and never gets tired. I use younger, developing minds as an example here because of their heightened impressionability but millions of adults have been sucked into the same world of seemingly infinite high-quality information.

It changes a person. What fun is speculating about how the universe works with friends if you know that the reasons why you're probably wrong could be had within seconds by checking on the internet? You can't believe everything you read on the internet (so they say), but usually it's reliable enough that even the smartest friend is simply not particularly credible any longer. So we shy away from in-depth discussions about things about which we haven't grasped what can be easily found on the web. Just as you wouldn't speculate about the best route to take while driving in a new city if you had a mapbook in front of you, we don't like to speculate about a new area of knowledge when we know there are much better answers just a few moments at a computer away.

There is a duality to the way this changes our approach to knowledge. We are thoroughly used to being absolutely wrong, and we are thoroughly used to most things we hear being absolutely wrong. Especially on the internet, fallacy overwhelms wisdom a billion to one. Except for a few bastions of high quality information - and even those are sometimes wrong - the internet is full of worthless answers. We've all had the experience of trying to solve a computer problem by googling it and finding discussion forums full of bad information spoken as truth. This repeated experience has primed us to treat all new information as dubious until supported by credible evidence, or at least a more credible authority consensus. I only mention this because I often hear that young people are often more willing to believe what they read on the internet than what they hear from real people. In reality, we usually put a lot more faith in what a reasonably trustworthy person tells us than what any given person on the internet says, but that one trustworthy person is still competing with a very large sample of other knowledgeable people. What comes off as cynicism in face to face contact is actually a wider trust in the consensus of humanity.

The other side of the same coin is that we are thoroughly used to being wrong about something we believed. It happens all the time, perhaps tens of times a day for the particularly voracious readers. Mostly for small or trivial things, but sometimes we'll realise that we've followed a train of thought and built up a whole understanding of a topic based on a false premise and all that thought must simply be tossed out and rethought from scratch. It was painful for the first few times - and for big things it it still is - but by and large we are very much desensitised to the pain of being entirely and completely wrong. We can still be stubborn and proud and dig in our heels, and we often do because a lot of us are young and relatively immature. I don't mean to suggest we accept new information better than our older peers, but that we project this idealised version of ourselves onto everyone we come in contact with. If we believe it then we'll tell you that you're wrong, straight up, no dressing it up at all, because we don't think of it as a hurtful remark. Insofar as we treat people in the manner that we think that we wish to be treated, we just don't have that bit of learned neural wiring that tells us that being wrong sucks and that it is bad etiquette to put someone in that position. We burned that old circuit out years ago. We are still open-minded, we're just not very tactful. And we don't mean mean any disrespect by it.

I think you might be surprised if you saw the way that we talk to each other. I have noticed that a lot of the less cynical generation seem to assume that all these arrogant young people treat each other with more respect than they treat their elders. Maybe it's true for some of us. Maybe it's a lot of us, I don't know, but I can personally vouch for most young people I know still treating those older than them with more respect than we treat each other. As a result of constantly knocking back each other's opinions the opinions we are left with are often very resilient and when we express them we can come off as if we are willing to accept no compromise at all on our beliefs. It's a different way of building knowledge to the old method of sharing and contemplating. It's a colder and less social method for sure. I can understand why anyone would feel alienated by it, we certainly do.

I've been meaning to type out something like this for a while. I hope someone finds it helpful.

 

[joedirt]

I find that I often times would rather just remain silent than speak up these days.
The reason is because after ~40 years I've sort of arrived at the subconscious conclusion
that there is no reason to discuss anything with most people as most people have already
made up their minds and have no interest in what you think...and in fact will most likely
judge you for thinking differently.

I've arrived at a similar conclusion, but not quite the same. I think most peoples minds are made up and there's no sense in trying to convince anyone of the positions you hold, but what you can do is get them to talk about the positions they hold and explain why they hold those positions. If you love understanding this is the way to gain it anyway. Have them talk and you listen. You don't have to agree. If they are willing to give you a lesson in their world view for free, and most everyone is because people love to hear themselves talk, don't force them to learn from you. If a bookstore offered its books for free and was offended by your offers to pay, you wouldn't be upset by that.

If you want to convince people to adopt your own world view on a particular issue, I'd say the best thing to do would be to accept that no matter if you went out and preached full time, most people would never agree with you. The next best thing to do is to listen quietly and attentively to their position and ask honest questions. If their position is irrational the best way for them to realize that is to hear it from their own mouths, not yours. If their point of view is not as irrational as you had believed it to be you will have enriched yourself with a broader point of view.

This has led me to a lot of discussions of subject matters I really care nothing about. But by controlling myself and being a good listener for them I discipline my own mind and I can tell the other person gets a lot more joy out of the conversation than when I would dominate it. And it helps me to understand them, to know who they are, and that IS interesting to me.

Very solid advice. Lots to think about in this post for sure.

Thank you.

 

[joedirt]

I don't think you're becoming jaded, any of you, or if you are, I don't think it's such a bad thing. You are right about most of your points. People - especially young people - really are less amenable to truly open discussion when it comes to opinions about science, philosophy, politics and so on. We are living in the age of cynicism. You are not jaded to think so. It is the truth.

The same virtues of character that enabled the kind of discussion you fondly remember are responsible for your feelings of negativity towards the kind of polarised discussion that disturbs you today. To "become jaded" to me suggests that the source is something negative within you - I usually think of call centre workers becoming jaded by the misanthropy that dealing with angry people all day brings out in them. What I see when I read your post is the reaction from something positive in you to a world increasingly distant from your values. The difference is admittedly subtle, but I think that it is important.

Having said all that, please allow me an opportunity on behalf of the cynical younger generation (who I think might be the worst offenders!) to explain why we are the way we are.

The first thing is that many of us grew up with the internet. A few years from now, people who were born after the creation of Wikipedia will be old enough to vote in some jurisdictions. For the first time kids and teens are able to get answers to all their little curiosities immediately, comprehensively, and more reliably than any parent, friend or authority figure can hope to provide. Clicking through page after page on Wikipedia is the new 'why?' game that younger kids annoy their parents with, only Wikipedia essentially always has the answer and never gets tired. I use younger, developing minds as an example here because of their heightened impressionability but millions of adults have been sucked into the same world of seemingly infinite high-quality information.

It changes a person. What fun is speculating about how the universe works with friends if you know that the reasons why you're probably wrong could be had within seconds by checking on the internet? You can't believe everything you read on the internet (so they say), but usually it's reliable enough that even the smartest friend is simply not particularly credible any longer. So we shy away from in-depth discussions about things about which we haven't grasped what can be easily found on the web. Just as you wouldn't speculate about the best route to take while driving in a new city if you had a mapbook in front of you, we don't like to speculate about a new area of knowledge when we know there are much better answers just a few moments at a computer away.

There is a duality to the way this changes our approach to knowledge. We are thoroughly used to being absolutely wrong, and we are thoroughly used to most things we hear being absolutely wrong. Especially on the internet, fallacy overwhelms wisdom a billion to one. Except for a few bastions of high quality information - and even those are sometimes wrong - the internet is full of worthless answers. We've all had the experience of trying to solve a computer problem by googling it and finding discussion forums full of bad information spoken as truth. This repeated experience has primed us to treat all new information as dubious until supported by credible evidence, or at least a more credible authority consensus. I only mention this because I often hear that young people are often more willing to believe what they read on the internet than what they hear from real people. In reality, we usually put a lot more faith in what a reasonably trustworthy person tells us than what any given person on the internet says, but that one trustworthy person is still competing with a very large sample of other knowledgeable people. What comes off as cynicism in face to face contact is actually a wider trust in the consensus of humanity.

The other side of the same coin is that we are thoroughly used to being wrong about something we believed. It happens all the time, perhaps tens of times a day for the particularly voracious readers. Mostly for small or trivial things, but sometimes we'll realise that we've followed a train of thought and built up a whole understanding of a topic based on a false premise and all that thought must simply be tossed out and rethought from scratch. It was painful for the first few times - and for big things it it still is - but by and large we are very much desensitised to the pain of being entirely and completely wrong. We can still be stubborn and proud and dig in our heels, and we often do because a lot of us are young and relatively immature. I don't mean to suggest we accept new information better than our older peers, but that we project this idealised version of ourselves onto everyone we come in contact with. If we believe it then we'll tell you that you're wrong, straight up, no dressing it up at all, because we don't think of it as a hurtful remark. Insofar as we treat people in the manner that we think that we wish to be treated, we just don't have that bit of learned neural wiring that tells us that being wrong sucks and that it is bad etiquette to put someone in that position. We burned that old circuit out years ago. We are still open-minded, we're just not very tactful. And we don't mean mean any disrespect by it.

I think you might be surprised if you saw the way that we talk to each other. I have noticed that a lot of the less cynical generation seem to assume that all these arrogant young people treat each other with more respect than they treat their elders. Maybe it's true for some of us. Maybe it's a lot of us, I don't know, but I can personally vouch for most young people I know still treating those older than them with more respect than we treat each other. As a result of constantly knocking back each other's opinions the opinions we are left with are often very resilient and when we express them we can come off as if we are willing to accept no compromise at all on our beliefs. It's a different way of building knowledge to the old method of sharing and contemplating. It's a colder and less social method for sure. I can understand why anyone would feel alienated by it, we certainly do.

I've been meaning to type out something like this for a while. I hope someone finds it helpful.

Interesting perspective here.

I have one point I hope some in your generation take to heart.

Quick scanning of information will never enable the kind of deep thought on a subject that sincere studying will.
Reading a book will allow a much greater depth of knowledge on a subject that internet searches....not to say you can't gleam a lot from internet searches. Honestly I approach a new topic on the internet first to get a broad coverage of it...then I will usually order a few books to go deeper. Best of both worlds.

Also for what it's worth. I actually find it much easier to deal with your generation. I like the fact that your generation will question everything. That's the point. You can't google the answer to any of the really deep questions out there. Google why the big bang happened? Google what is consciousness. Google is their free will?

Wiki is awesome...but it won't replace deep thought. I mean people have to think deeply in order to acquire NEW information that can then be shared with the world via internet. You know it does sometimes feel like people just assume that the internet is the huge reservoir of free knowledge, but that knowledge had to come form some where... deep thinking.

 

[dromedary]

Quick scanning of information will never enable the kind of deep thought on a subject that sincere studying will.
Reading a book will allow a much greater depth of knowledge on a subject that internet searches....not to say you can't gleam a lot from internet searches. Honestly I approach a new topic on the internet first to get a broad coverage of it...then I will usually order a few books to go deeper. Best of both worlds.

Also for what it's worth. I actually find it much easier to deal with your generation. I like the fact that your generation will question everything. That's the point. You can't google the answer to any of the really deep questions out there. Google why the big bang happened? Google what is consciousness. Google is their free will?

Wiki is awesome...but it won't replace deep thought. I mean people have to think deeply in order to acquire NEW information that can then be shared with the world via internet. You know it does sometimes feel like people just assume that the internet is the huge reservoir of free knowledge, but that knowledge had to come form some where... deep thinking.

Agree wholeheartedly on all counts. I'm not sure that the lack of appreciation of 'deep thought' is a generational issue though. I certainly see a lot of people who think they've got it all figured out when they really only have a superficial understanding, but I see the 'thinking' kind too. In all age groups. Perhaps there are a lot more late teens/twentysomethings doing it right now, but I don't think it'll stick. Young people have always been arrogant. (Even me.)

 

[Xt]

The whole damn thing is rotten. It makes me sick.

:roll:

 

[obliguhl]

Oh yes.
I tend to think that everyone is on their own journey ...what am i to judge, waht am i to care ?
I sure tend to think in a certain way...but then, after hearing other viewpoints i'm like "oh ok..." without really comprehending the full consequences.
A lot of things seem so arbitrary. Why is Jesus called Jesus and not Pete? Why do so many people stop eating meat? Why are there people who murder? Why is there any kindness at all. Is there? I have no clue.

At a younger age it was easier to relate to people through illusion.

Ideas, concepts, people ...they were all awesome.

No, they aren't.

 

[SHroomtroll]

this is funny cause ive been thinking alot like this for the last months.

Ive always been the one to get into discussions about all kinds of things and been the one to try to teach people stuff, but nowadays i´m sick of being "that guy" and barely wan´t to talk about anything that used to interest me or still does.

Now i talk more about feelings than actual information which is a very good thing since that is something ive been having a hard time getting out before.

 

[bodhi]

Perhaps on a broader scale, fear and compliance have become the social norm...

 

[SHroomtroll]

For me it´s more of becoming more humble, i don´t feel the need to shove the truth in peoples throats, it´s better if people feel the need to ask for it instead.

 

[original_sessions]

"The young, if they are at all alive, are full of hope and discontent; they must be, otherwise they are already old and dead. And the old are those who were once discontented, but who have successfully smothered the flame and have found security and comfort in various ways." - Jiddu Krishnamurti, from Education and the Significance of Life, pp. 41

Hope this helps. Best wishes.

 

[joedirt]

For me it´s more of becoming more humble, i don´t feel the need to shove the truth in peoples throats, it´s better if people feel the need to ask for it instead.

Humility. I need more of it.

The truth will set you free, but only if you discover the truth for your self.

Thank you for this.

Peace.

 

[52-dsl]

joedirt,

I have to agree with you on this. I'm 37, and have had to keep those types of conversations on the downlow since I was about 20 to keep people from talking about me. Not that I really care but why bother? I only have 1 friend in my life still I can engage in deep, interesting conversations with. I live in Wisconsin. You drink, watch football, fish, hunt, or you ain't right boy! You know what I mean. I used to live in Arkansas and it was even more narrowminded down their.

Even back in the day, most the people I knew that tripped were'nt spiritual at all even then. It would be like drop some acid, crank some heavy metal, and get in fights. So alot of times I'd trip alone, or with my girl, even my dad. He was an old hippy and I could have good enlightful conversations with him.

We're not old. Age is just a number to me. I just hope I can stay out of society's rut. So to me your post was encouraging.