Buddhist Samadhi and Tryptamine Ecstasy

[pau]

OK, so I've been acquainted for many years with various, loosely Buddhist, "spiritual" practices and outlook on life. One night about 18 months back , San Pedro showed me a "spiritual" side of psychedelics: what (afterwards, of course) struck me as a few minutes experience in something close to the non-dual state led to a total change in the way I looked at these chemicals. That experience has changed my practice radically, as well as my minute-by-minute living. The spirit of the chemical may reward you if you treat it with honor and respect.

Since that time my experiences have been largely tryptamine-based, and they are progressively getting deeper. I can say honestly they have widened my understanding far more than anything I believed possible or have been able to achieve without chemical assistance. So I do believe that in some cases the use of chemicals can be consistent with and even helpful to one's practice.

I also know this can - and will - at change at some time ... no doubt the chemical part of my practice will drop off one day, perhaps soon.

 

[hoonsince89]

As I understand it psychedelics were used in the inception of these religions. In some yoga scripts there are mentions of it.

Feels a bit obvious that at least the states are more or less identical when you walk around in a temple that is more trippy than any well decorated goa party

Unfortunately I don't remember where I read it but somewhere it was claimed that these herbs are still used in the Himalayas, but very few disciples are seen as suitable for such a spiritual kick-start so it is a well kept secret. Bit different approach from that of Mr Leary.

Exactly what (kind of) herbs are you talking about? (and don't just say psychedelic ones)

Datura
Marijuana

Are the ones i have read that have been used by Buddhists. I would not recommend Datura tho without someone experienced.
the skript said something roughly along these lines.

"On some occasions Datura (the devils/angels trumpet) is used to quickly awaken an individual. This is an extremely dangerous
practice and should only be done under direct supervision. If the seeker is not worthy, he may encounter an agonizing death. If the seeker is worthy
His Kundilini will be awakened, and inner problems will surface and he will have to confront them."

Just going from memory so dont quote me lol If you would like to research yourself i think i tuped something like "awakening kundilini sumaddhi","awakening kundilini datura"

 

[hoonsince89]

I'd be very appreciative to hear other people's thoughts on DMT and
how it relates to Buddhist or other meditative experiences. Thank you.

The psychedelic experience is to be treated as all other experiences in Buddhism. It is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not you.

In fact psychedelics are an amazing way to practice insight meditation...on occasion. In fact it's perfect for it...on occasion. You have images and sensations rising and passing away at very rapid speed. Try and be aware of every single image or sensation you have while on psychedelics without being averse to the bad images/sensations and without grasping for the ecstatic images/sensations.

At the end of the day you have to realize the glaringly obvious fact: It's just an illusion as all other things are. The DMT experience can offer one a fleeting glimpse of the highest state of Samadhi, but in the end this experience is just like all other experiences. It is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and its not you.

I meditate and I use psychedelics, but without a doubt I'm certain that at some point my progress will not proceed if I don't give up psychedelics.

Remember the goal in Buddhism is to literally be here now. To be completely and total equal with life exactly as it is. Not to grasp for things to be better and not to lament how bad things are. Drugs by nature are not being here now. We chose to alter our state in hopes that it would be better or different than our current situation....


Peace

I do agree with you here, I believe Hallucinogens only help you so much, From then on you must stop the substances as you will not find anything more to gain.
I have slowly stopped using them myself and am working on personal development with out them.
In saying that tho... i would not be at my current stage of spirituality without these magical substances!!

 

[Dream2Awaken]

I have found it interesting that many of the ides or thoughts that dominate my mind while on DMT are very similar if not exactly the same as Buddhist beliefs. Before the substance I knew nothing about Buddhism, but after doing it somehow I've learned a vast amount of knowledge about the religion without any exterior influences or help. Out of all the world religions I personally believe it to be the one closest to be true and right. Maybe not in every way, but definitely most.

 

[joedirt]

I don’t understand these statements. It seems to me that “being here now” means just what it says. If one can “be here now” while experiencing the “normal” neuro-chemical state, then why can’t one be here now while experiencing an altered neuro-chemical state.

You say by choosing to alter our state, we cannot be here now. Why not?

Let me put it this way.

You can't be here now in both the drug induced state and the normal state. By taking the drug you have in a sense denied the 'truth' that was already present.

In Buddhism the goal is to realize that the ultimate truth is literally right here now. There is no need to take a drug to get closer to the truth. You are the truth now, alway's have been, and always will be.

Now obviously, you, me, and several other people believe that drug induced states can indeed approach Samadhi if not have the experience out right. BUT. How close would we be to enlightenment if our fancy tools were taken away? Can we (most of us) reach that state without the drug? I believe these drugs are an elevator of sorts that take us up to heightened states and let us look around. Then like all other things it is also impermanent and thus fades away. Why I think psychs are good tools is because they can inspire a life long spiritual pursuit in some people. At the end of the day though we cross the abode without our tools. In my humble opinion I think we'd be wise to make sure we are comfortable with the terrain sans drugs as well as with drugs.

This is all I was implying. Of course you can be here now on drugs or not. But you can't be here now on drugs and sober at the same time.

 

[gibran2]

Let me put it this way.

You can't be here now in both the drug induced state and the normal state. By taking the drug you have in a sense denied the 'truth' that was already present.

In Buddhism the goal is to realize that the ultimate truth is literally right here now. There is no need to take a drug to get closer to the truth. You are the truth now, alway's have been, and always will be.

Now obviously, you, me, and several other people believe that drug induced states can indeed approach Samadhi if not have the experience out right. BUT. How close would we be to enlightenment if our fancy tools were taken away? Can we (most of us) reach that state without the drug? I believe these drugs are an elevator of sorts that take us up to heightened states and let us look around. Then like all other things it is also impermanent and thus fades away. Why I think psychs are good tools is because they can inspire a life long spiritual pursuit in some people. At the end of the day though we cross the abode without our tools. In my humble opinion I think we'd be wise to make sure we are comfortable with the terrain sans drugs as well as with drugs.

This is all I was implying. Of course you can be here now on drugs or not. But you can't be here now on drugs and sober at the same time.

I know next to nothing about Buddhism, so excuse me if I venture too far off base:

We’ve discussed in other threads that the drug-induced state is really just another state of mind. The “normal” state is, after all, just another drug induced state. So you seem to be suggesting that one drug induced state is, with respect to “being here now”, preferable to another. I’m not sure I agree with that.

Also, you imply that those who ingest drugs such as DMT do so to “get closer to the truth” or to get closer to “enlightenment” or a “heightened state”. You imply that those who use DMT are trying to accomplish the same things that are ordinarily accomplished via meditation and other non-drug methods. I agree that those who attempt to achieve from DMT what is ordinarily achieved via non-drug methods may become disappointed over time and come to the correct conclusion that drugs can’t do for them what dedication to non-drug methods can.

But all of this really says more about an individual’s relationship with DMT (and other drugs) than it does about DMT: If you start using DMT because you believe it will give you super powers, eventually you’ll become disenchanted. Likewise, if you start using DMT because you believe it will give you what meditation yields, you’ll no doubt come to the conclusion that eventually you’ll have to seek non-drug methods to achieve what you desire.

I don’t take that approach. DMT provides something unique. It provides something that can’t be achieved via meditation or other means. Part of my ongoing relationship with DMT involves accepting whatever it has to offer, and I’m not always clear about what that might be.

One of the lessons that I’ve learned from DMT is quite simple and might even be another way of saying “You are the truth now, always have been, and always will be.” is this:

Everything is happening exactly as it must. The world – the universe – is developing and unfolding precisely as it must, and we are a part of that “unfolding”.

 

[Rising Spirit]

I know next to nothing about Buddhism, so excuse me if I venture too far off base:

There are easily more variants within the faith of Buddhism, than within Christianity, for example. So, preconceived knowledge about the fundamentals of contemporary thought about Buddhism in general, are subject to a tapestry of myriad branches and alternative theologies, spinning off the initial phenomenon of Lord Buddha, 2,500+ years ago.

Even if you were an erudite Buddhist scholar, you would still be challenged to define the term "Buddhism". There was the initial profound impact, that began with the awakening and subsequent revelations which the historical Siddhartha Gautama experienced. Much as with any indoctrination of mystical experiences, centuries of contemplation alter many of the realities behind the awakening of the Buddha-mind. Yet, all of the Buddhist branches, sects and tributaries hold unique and distinctly profound variations within the primary doctrine.

So, strictly speaking, Lord Buddha clearly defines his philosophy in the Four Noble Truths and his pragmatic methodology to free humankind from suffering and delusion, The Eightfold Path. This is seamlessly woven together as The Middle Way.

Buddhism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As to you points, you are most correct that all levels of human consciousness are essentially a chemical reaction and as organic entities, we exist always in the here and now. I believe we all perceive the level of awareness which we cultivate through training our attention, under the influence of a psychedelic or not. There is but the NOW, regardless of the veil which we perceive it through (veil = mind).

Nothing we think about either state of mind, tripping or naturally meditative should be polarized as mutually exclusive. Hey, I may never embrace an entheogen again, who can really say? Theoretically, I could die of old age without again imbibing... conversely, it could be later on tonight. I do plan to further my psychedelic voyages, however, I have no concept of a specific time-line involved with the process. But practicing being present is a continuum, regardless of state of mind.

For my personal Dharma, in this period of my life, I have need to go into levels of awareness which cause a lasting remembrance. This Remembrance is primary, the form and substance of the specific pathway is secondary. Yeah, the "drug" wears off... and reality re-crystallizes about oneself, within the sequencing of our interphases with the material rhythm of the time-space-continuum.

Meditation as a practice and a way of living, is always the central constant. Eventually, we are drawl towards immersions within our own personal fusion with Bodhi. So, if there exist a pure and immediate expression of what Buddhism aspires for, it is through our own challenge to fully awaken. Present, free of delusion and consciously awake.

 

[joedirt]

Gibran,

My answer was largely framed in the context of the original parents question. Forgive me for the line by line...it's easier for me to make sure I get all the points.

I'd be very appreciative to hear other people's thoughts on DMT and how it relates to Buddhist or other meditative experiences. Thank you.

So I tried to keep the answer in the context of Buddhism. However like Rising Spirit has noted Buddhism itself is pretty fragmented. However it we go back to the oldest complete doctrines (The Pali) cannon we get a pretty clear context of what Buddha was saying without a lot of the extraneous dogma...though there is still some. I recommend "In the Buddha's Words" if any one is interested in learning more.

So you seem to be suggesting that one drug induced state is, with respect to “being here now”, preferable to another. I’m not sure I agree with that.

Yes i do believe that in the context we are talking about. I believe one state can lead to lasting enlightenment (or at least lasting realization) and the other state largely produces disoriented states of confusions that when harnessed just right may lead to very temporary Samadhi like states. For some of us these glimpses are exactly what we need. For others probably not.

Also, you imply that those who ingest drugs such as DMT do so to “get closer to the truth” or to get closer to “enlightenment” or a “heightened state”. You imply that those who use DMT are trying to accomplish the same things that are ordinarily accomplished via meditation and other non-drug methods. I agree that those who attempt to achieve from DMT what is ordinarily achieved via non-drug methods may become disappointed over time and come to the correct conclusion that drugs can’t do for them what dedication to non-drug methods can.

It's all about the context. In this case the original parent was asking about Buddhism and tryptamines. So I think it was pretty logical to assume that he may be using, or thinking about, using these drugs for that purpose. BTW I do not know that meditation can't lead to DMT like states...actually I'm inclined to believe that since DMT is just interacting with your brain that it should be within the realm of possibility to access very similar states with concentration alone. I can now sit in meditation with marijuana and get deep enough to have full visuals. I can often times get glimpses of these visuals sober. Rising Spirit is someone that has reached very similar states.

But all of this really says more about an individual’s relationship with DMT (and other drugs) than it does about DMT: If you start using DMT because you believe it will give you super powers, eventually you’ll become disenchanted. Likewise, if you start using DMT because you believe it will give you what meditation yields, you’ll no doubt come to the conclusion that eventually you’ll have to seek non-drug methods to achieve what you desire./

Yes and no. Firstly I do believe that it's possible to reach the highest state of Samadhi on psychs. I believe these state will largely be one and the same. I also don't think it's easy and I don't think most people that reference this state have actually achieved it. I've done psychs 100's of times over a few decades and I've had exactly 2 such experiences. Both times I had a firm intention to try and reach that state. I wasn't using the drug for mental masturbation but for enlightenment. This isn't to say I don't have amazing experiences, but only twice have I experienced what I feel is described in ancient texts on Samadhi.

Lastly I don't believe it can be reached with the drugs alone. In my limited experience it's a combination of meditation, awareness, and drugs. Sort of like the stars aligning just right I guess. But I don't really know. I'm not enlightened. According to Buddha I am like a dreamer speculating on waking life.

Everything is happening exactly as it must. The world – the universe – is developing and unfolding precisely as it must, and we are a part of that “unfolding”.

And this hits at the very heart of Buddhist meditation. Insight (vipassana) meditation is the art of tuning into every sight, sound, sensation, smell, thought, and emotion in the right now. According to Buddha there is nothing more to do than fully realize this very moment. There is no need to take a drug for enlightenment would surely be Buddhas response.

So yes, for some of us, drugs have allowed us to taste it. But it's not lasting...but yet of course neither is Samadhi.

It's all impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not us.

 

[Shocktopus]

I don’t understand these statements. It seems to me that “being here now” means just what it says. If one can “be here now” while experiencing the “normal” neuro-chemical state, then why can’t one be here now while experiencing an altered neuro-chemical state.

You say by choosing to alter our state, we cannot be here now. Why not?

Let me put it this way.

You can't be here now in both the drug induced state and the normal state. By taking the drug you have in a sense denied the 'truth' that was already present.

In Buddhism the goal is to realize that the ultimate truth is literally right here now. There is no need to take a drug to get closer to the truth. You are the truth now, alway's have been, and always will be.

Why is it necessary to draw a line between the "drug induced" and the "normal" state? It is hard to explain the nature of the desire to experience altered states, but is that desire not part of the 'truth' that is present?
I guess this comes down to the intention, using psychedelics as a form of escape or with the notion that they will magically induce enlightenment is always going to be wholly unsatisfactory. In my own experience, denial of our own desires in hope that it will lead to "enlightenment" is just as silly.

We all have desires and to deny them is simply to desperately grasp in the other direction.
To use a metaphor, When the phone rings you should definitely answer, but do not dwell on the one call, hang up to keep the line clear because i can guarantee another call is always just about to arrive.

i have an enormous amount of respect for Buddhist teachings but i believe the methods are outdated and we need to interpret that differently for the time that we are living in

 

[TryptaTom]

"You can't be here now in both the drug induced state and the normal state. By taking the drug you have in a sense denied the 'truth' that was already present.

In Buddhism the goal is to realize that the ultimate truth is literally right here now. There is no need to take a drug to get closer to the truth. You are the truth now, alway's have been, and always will be."


You can be here and now even when in altered state, this is just about you. You will see another point of view of the here and now. These things are door opener, teacher on the way to awareness - they can help realise our connection to everything else - Respect - and to come to peace in mind and with that to here and now...

Many people have very low energy and got stuck in most emotional triggers, this will dont allow to be here and now - future or past...altered state means to get to another POV, out of this mindfuck circle - to realise the holyness of the moment and to get in conection again.

These are helpfull tools, they can show and open many doors...but in the end we have to go through it ourselves


Not that everybody needs...but in my opinion most of the western society should because of this crazy collective hallucination... xD

 

[joedirt]

Wow you guy's revived a seriously old thread!

I guess since I just reread it all and I was kinda tagged at the end I'll respond.

Sure on many drugs you can still "be here now". But anyone that has had a blackout experience from alcohol or any other drug knows that there comes a point when you can't be here now any longer.

I posed this question higher up in the thread and I'd like to pose it again. But first a frame. This is for people, like myself, who have found psychedelics interesting for their spiritual journey.

What happens to our drug induced epiphanies or ability to reach the so called enlightened states if our tools (the drugs) are taken away. Seems pretty obvious to me that if it's really possible to reach the states without tools then that would ultimately be a more desirable place to be. Again absolutely nothing wrong with the drugs. I love em myself.

Peace

 

[grollum]

I just wrote my answer to the initial post and by now realised that it is from 2011.

So instead of deleting it i post it anyway...

I am doing different Buddhist meditations for some time now and I must say that you can get into quite interesting psychedelic realms with just meditation. But we are not talking about hours. Its more about weeks and month. Its about really meaning it, its about all in, dying in your practice. Many people confound an hour relaxing medition with the technique. But it is much more the span of a live of meditation.
With buddhism its easy not to practice serious or in a right way. And its not easy to let your ego burn just by sitting on a pillow. But it is possible I think.

With yoga its a bit different, I had quite intense experiences with energetic Yoga practices like Kundalini and Kriya.

I thought about the connection between religion and the use of entheogens quite long.
I have some theories regarding that.

One idea is that many of the religions are more or less often based on shamanic cultures or try to imitate them or steel from them.
For example the Tibetan Buddhism is somehow based or mixed with the shamanic tradition which existed in Tibet before the Buddhism as far as I remember.

Many of the artworks we know from religions are quite old or the symbols and form has not changed to much over the centuries.
Thats possible because many religions are so static that they might not change a lot over a hundred of years.

I read from the christian religion that they changed aspects of the Christianity to simulate aspects of other religions or believe systems which they wanted to undermine. I remember an example where they created the trinity to simulate a trinity of other gods which existed in the Celtic culture.

So what I want to say is, many of the psychedelic things in religious art might be from a time where for example shamanism and plant use was a thing. So Religion in a way is maybe like a preservation of mystic experiences.

 

[TryptaTom]

Wow you guy's revived a seriously old thread!

I guess since I just reread it all and I was kinda tagged at the end I'll respond.

Sure on many drugs you can still "be here now". But anyone that has had a blackout experience from alcohol or any other drug knows that there comes a point when you can't be here now any longer.

I posed this question higher up in the thread and I'd like to pose it again. But first a frame. This is for people, like myself, who have found psychedelics interesting for their spiritual journey.

What happens to our drug induced epiphanies or ability to reach the so called enlightened states if our tools (the drugs) are taken away. Seems pretty obvious to me that if it's really possible to reach the states without tools then that would ultimately be a more desirable place to be. Again absolutely nothing wrong with the drugs. I love em myself.

Peace

Its funny that you mentioned alcohol, in tantra yoga there is kind of training the mind with alcohol To not get drifted away from here and now.

 

[mikeAtHome]

Hello everyone. It seems the root topic of this thread is about the miscibility of chemically induced POVs with different belief systems, specifically buddhism. Or maybe I've missed the point. In case I haven't let me offer this...

I am not a buddhist but have read much on the topic and have known many practicing buddhists. My experience is that just like many other sects, buddhists also differ in their beliefs when it comes to lifestyles and paths to enlightenment. Unlike other sects, they are accepting of of others' right to have their own beliefs (for the most part or unless you live in Myanmar). For example, some buddhist believe that the main element of that path requires suffering. And so on.

It just makes me wonder then if what we're really all wanting to know is whether or not psychedelics is a valid tool in discovering true insights into things like (mainly): inner honesty/self discovery and the way in which everything in existence is connected. These insights promote empathy which allows us to become a more positive force in the world than we would otherwise be.

I could just be projecting my own inner-struggles and have missed the point making my above comments totally off-topic for this thread. If so, I apologize. My personal belief is that psychedelics can be a useful tool. I mean, don't you think the world would be a better place if our current Commander-in-Chief gave it a few tries?