Can harmalas cause insomnia?

[reun]

Hi all,

I had my first harmalas experience last night, I took 110 mg at 4 pm, had a pleasant, meditative time, and I was mostly back by 10 pm. When I went to bed around 10:30, I was exhausted. I also took a Dayvigo sleeping pill (it's a DORA medication that I've been taking for a while, it has no contraindications with harmalas), but I was still unable to sleep at all. I've struggled with sleep historically, but I normally struggle to maintain sleep, I usually have no trouble falling asleep. That said, rarely, I do get nights where I just can't sleep at all, but this just feels like to much of a coincidence. When I went to bed, I was a little worried about the possible interactions between harmalas and things I ate or even the sleeping medication (which I double-checked and it was safe), so anxiety was definitely a factor as well.

But I do wonder if other people have experienced harmalas-induced insomnia. I am wondering about the following:

• Was this a one-off coincidence that may have been caused by my anxiety and it has nothing to do with harmalas?
• If I ever decided to take it again, would I be better off taking it in the morning, say 8-9 am, so that by nighttime it would let me sleep? But the trade-off here, I believe, is that I'll be out for the entire day

Would love to hear your experiences! If harmalas can indeed induce insomnia, then I will never touch them again, I'm afraid.

Thank you

 

[Nydex]

For me harmalas have caused sleep issues in the past pretty reliably, so if you already struggle with that, I would recommend taking them earlier in the day so your system has time to flush it all out by the time you go to bed. But also I would recommend against jumping to conclusions based on just a single experience. Experiment more and track your sleep to see if all things being equal, harmalas affect that in any way for you. I know they don't cause sleep issues for everyone, so judge this on the basis of your experience.

Good luck!

 

[reun]

For me harmalas have caused sleep issues in the past pretty reliably, so if you already struggle with that, I would recommend taking them earlier in the day so your system has time to flush it all out by the time you go to bed. But also I would recommend against jumping to conclusions based on just a single experience. Experiment more and track your sleep to see if all things being equal, harmalas affect that in any way for you. I know they don't cause sleep issues for everyone, so judge this on the basis of your experience.

Good luck!

Thank you for responding!

Yes, I don't want to write them off based on a single experience, but a sleepless night also isn't something to sneeze at. I will try them again in the morning, and if that still gives me trouble, then I will step away from them.

I'm also curious if changa has similar effects. I guess that smoking it in the evening is not recommended as well, do you happen to know anything about that?

 

[blig-blug]

Harmalas mess up my sleep if taken too late, although they wouldn't if I take them at 4 PM. Makes sense that it can happen, as they slow down the breakdown of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine.

The effects should last for a shorter time when smoked, as the total dose ingested will be much smaller and absorption almost instant.

 

[reun]

I will give them another go, but I will be cautious with the timing. From what I understand, a few things could be going on here (this may potentially be useful for others discovering harmalas for themselves):

• Harmalas really do seem to negatively impact sleep, even though the timing here may be questionable
• I heard that when taken in smaller quantities, harmalas can be genuinely stimulating. This may not be true though, since I personally haven't observed it (unless we call "tired but wired" stimulating). With this in mind, it is conceivable that if I would have taken a bigger dose, then I would have had easier time falling asleep. Just speculating here
• I already have a predisposition for insomnia and the sheer anxiety was a genuine factor. In the lead up to my experience, I researched harmalas quite extensively, and my takeaway was that they turn so many seemingly innocuous things into radioactive matter, so you should be very careful with them. Some more experienced members of this forum would probably attest that in practice, harmalas are not quite as restrictive as I may paint them out to be. Nonetheless, even when dealing with substances that aren't direct contraindications, like my DORA sleeping pills, I was wondering "what if?"

 

[dithyramb]

I have struggled with sleep issues all my life, and I am drinking rue very often since almost two decades. Rue can cause sleep problems but it's not a mechanistic/deterministic effect for me. Doing it as a proper ritual from beginning to end prevents sleep issues for me. Otherwise it can turn into a seemingly endless mental or even bodily stimulation.

About medications... I would recommend not taking anything after rue if possible. It can cause unexpected effects for sure, and they can be unpleasant even if not on the dangerous side.

I personally don't take any medications in general, it's my own approach to my life. For the management of sleep I have explored the effects of my diet and the timing of my eating, and breathwork, and also earthing. I have found all of these parameters to be related to the quality of my sleep. Not to mention screen time and artificial lighting, and finally, having a healthy regular sex life.

 

[reun]

I have struggled with sleep issues all my life, and I am drinking rue very often since almost two decades. Rue can cause sleep problems but it's not a mechanistic/deterministic effect for me. Doing it as a proper ritual from beginning to end prevents sleep issues for me. Otherwise it can turn into a seemingly endless mental or even bodily stimulation.

About medications... I would recommend not taking anything after rue if possible. It can cause unexpected effects for sure, and they can be unpleasant even if not on the dangerous side.

I personally don't take any medications in general, it's my own approach to my life. For the management of sleep I have explored the effects of my diet and the timing of my eating, and breathwork, and also earthing. I have found all of these parameters to be related to the quality of my sleep. Not to mention screen time and artificial lighting, and finally, having a healthy regular sex life.

Thank you for sharing your experience!

I've been dealing with sleep problems for nearly a decade now. In many ways, my sleep problems actually drove a lot of positive change in life, they prompted me to revise my diet, activity and many other aspects of my life. Nonetheless, my sleep remained poor. I effectively implemented CBT-i on 3 separate occasions, but over time I find myself slipping back into old patterns. It gets exhausting. Only about a month ago I discovered DORA sleep medications and I have decided to try them, because they seem to be non-addictive and they seem to not damage the architecture of your sleep. I feel like they have been genuinely helpful, even if not 100% effective. In general, I am also the kind of person who avoids all medications whenever possible. These sleep meds are the only exceptions I've made in my life and it's a recent development.

Still, I agree that with rue, it's probably better to avoid all medications, so I will keep this in mind.

 

[Jamie01]

Yeah they can cause insomnia for me as well.

 

[reun]

It sounds like harmalas can and do indeed induce insomnia. Those of you who have experienced this: how do you deal with it? Did you just stop taking harmalas for that reason? Do you just accept it as tax? Have you found ways to minimise the impact on sleep?

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Harmalas are weird, for me, sometimes they trigger insomnia and sometimes they help me sleep. However be careful as it seems that dayvigo (lemborexant) is mainly metabolized by CYP3A4 which is inhibited by Harmalas.

 

[northape]

Something people forget to mention is that you feel relatively well rested after rue insomnia.
I don't know how it works, but harmalas protect your body from the effects of sleep deprivation, ime.

 

[reun]

Something people forget to mention is that you feel relatively well rested after rue insomnia.
I don't know how it works, but harmalas protect your body from the effects of sleep deprivation, ime.

Ha! There may be some truth to that. I had pretty much a sleepless night, nonetheless, I did feel sorta alright today.

Nonetheless, if this is a regular side effect of harmalas, that will most certainly discourage me from using them. Next time I would like to try using them early in the morning with the idea that by the time I go to sleep, they will be mostly out of my system. Still, @Ra-Horakhty made an excellent point about lemborexant, so I will avoid taking any sleeping pills on the night after the experience

 

[northape]

Nothing is free in life, and you get so many benefits with rue that insomnia or nausea are small prices to pay. You can just use it in the day if you're worried about your sleep.
I usually ingest a high enough dose to explore the state, so I'm not that worried about my rest. Work with it some more, and you'll create your own relationship quite naturally.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Ha! There may be some truth to that. I had pretty much a sleepless night, nonetheless, I did feel sorta alright today.

Nonetheless, if this is a regular side effect of harmalas, that will most certainly discourage me from using them. Next time I would like to try using them early in the morning with the idea that by the time I go to sleep, they will be mostly out of my system. Still, @Ra-Horakhty made an excellent point about lemborexant, so I will avoid taking any sleeping pills on the night after the experience

I found a study where they used lemborexant with a CYP3A4 inhibitor (Itraconazole), the peak concentration of lemborexant increased by 1.4 to 1.6 fold, however the overall body exposures increased by 3.7 to 4.2 fold.

Evaluation of the CYP3A and CYP2B6 Drug‐Drug Interaction Potential of Lemborexant - PMC

Lemborexant is approved for treating insomnia and is under investigation for treating irregular sleep‐wake rhythm disorder. Based on in vitro drug‐drug interaction (DDI) characteristics, phase 1, open‐label DDI studies were conducted to evaluate ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The thing is, harmala alkaloids are not as strong as Itraconazole when it comes to CYP3A4 inhibition, in terms of Ki values, we are talking in micromolar for harmalas and nanomolar for Itraconazole. There is also a study on Syrian Rue extract that even show an increase in the genetic expression of CYP3A4

Is it really dangerous? In my humble opinion, I don't know. The maximum human approved dosage of lemborexant is 10mg. With Itraconazole, a solution in theory to stay "safe" would be to reduce the dosage to 1.25mg/2.5mg. But then again, the human body is complex, and you never know what to expect, an indicator of too much orexin antagonists like lemborexant would be to evaluate the increase of hypnagogic states as well as drowsiness the next day.

To be clear, everything I said is just theory, in practice things can vary a lot between each individual since genetics have a lot of impact when it comes to those kind of things. Harmalas with Lamborexant wont be as dangerous as mixing MAOI with SSRIs for example but it's better to be safe

 

[Transform]

Taking rue immediately before bed time has resulted in me getting to sleep but then waking up once the effects kick in. However, strong rue effects are quite akin to dreaming so IME it's possible to relax into them and sustain most of the benefits of having slept properly.

That being said, I still wouldn't recommend sacrificing ones sleep quality in that manner too often, especially if you have regular commitments that entail getting up in the morning. Having had the opportunity to explore harmalas in this manner I'd still say that it has been very useful in terms of personal development to have done so.

 

[Jamie01]

I also have a really bad sleep disorder due to auto immune issues, and taking any significant doses of harmalas at night will usually have me unable to sleep properly. It’s a broken sleep full of sleep paralysis(which I already get when I can’t sleep), weird dreams and micro OBEs. Essentially I’m “tripping” all night and don’t feel rested. I don’t feel rested if I lucid dream all night long either because it means broken sleep probly lots of weird REM and I miss the deeper states where I feel rested.

I prefer to go to bed at like 8pm and wake up at 3am and then take ayahuasca or pharma. If I take mescaline also I have to start at like 5am or sleep is impossible..or if the dose is big-sleep is impossible lol.

Mushrooms I find I can sleep okay after as long as the trip has ended. Same with Vaped DMT.

It’s not worth it IMO to loose sleep, unless you have a relaxed enough lifestyle where you don’t have to work much or have many responsibilities. I can’t really make up for the lost sleep later so I’m not going to do that.

 

[Jamie01]

I can get away with sublingual pharma in the afternoon also, but my doses are too low to be active orally so I imagine it’s cleared my system enough well before I go to sleep.

 

[dithyramb]

Just to make it clear: choosing an earlier time makes sense from the perspective of the actives clearing the system. But for me it doesn't work that way. In fact morning sessions give me insomnia consistently, whereas whatever sleep deficit I get from night sessions is from sleeping later than what's healthy for my body, if I sleep late. Perhaps I am a different beast, but for me sleeping right after a strong ending ritual to a session is quite easy and natural. It's a case of the power of suggestion/intention, and how energy works independently from pharmacological activity.

I think there is some truth to the idea that rue protects against the effects of sleep deprivation. I don't know if it is related to the hypnogogic dreamy states it can induce. In the end, you are nourished from a different source and have an extra well being/protection, but still it cannot replace natural sleep.

In my country, one of the rather superficial names of rue is "sleep herb." Superficial because of what rue actually is, but also superficial because the sleep inducing effect is temporary and in the beginning, and is followed by a solid mental stimulation. But perhaps most people's sleep isn't bothered by the stimulation and they just doze off the whole night without noticing anything unusual. And it probably happens with seeds that are not fully ripened, as it is traditionally harvested when the capsules are still green or have not cracked open yet.

 

[Jamie01]

It seems to differ between individuals because my wife uses it for sleep a lot and it works.

If I’m not trying to sleep and take it in the daytime I still feel sedated and it’s relaxing, and I can feel rested. I just can’t reach a deep dreamless sleep. I don’t know how to explain it but it’s similar to being awake all night on Iboga.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm curious, what is everyone's dosages that leads to your sleep issues?

I have noticed that when I go over the 2.5g range too close to bed that it's harder than usual to sleep (sleep is always hard). However, using only a gram or so before bed helps me get to sleep sooner, and wake up more refreshed.

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