Datura VS Belladonna

[hellspawn1]

Those of you who have experience using tropane plants:

Would you say each plant is unique in terms of the experience? And what is the difference between Datura, Belladonna, Henbane, Mandrake etc. used either to enhance the effect of another plant, or when used on its own for inner travel & exploration or traditional "witchraft" purpose.

Obviously they are similar on a chemical level, but do they each have energies on their own in the same way dmt sources or mushroom species differs from one another? Is the delirium state affected depending specific plant used and in what way?

I am fully aware of the danger tropane alkaloids poses, and I am familiar on my own having experienced some nightshade mixtures, although I cannot at this point draw any conclusions.

Surely some of you could give input on the matter?

Travel safely, and thank you for being sensible and responsible human beings.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Those of you who have experience using tropane plants:

Would you say each plant is unique in terms of the experience? And what is the difference between Datura, Belladonna, Henbane, Mandrake etc. used either to enhance the effect of another plant, or when used on its own for inner travel & exploration or traditional "witchraft" purpose.

Obviously they are similar on a chemical level, but do they each have energies on their own in the same way dmt sources or mushroom species differs from one another? Is the delirium state affected depending specific plant used and in what way?

I am fully aware of the danger tropane alkaloids poses, and I am familiar on my own having experienced some nightshade mixtures, although I cannot at this point draw any conclusions.

Surely some of you could give input on the matter?

Travel safely, and thank you for being sensible and responsible human beings.

...if there are subtle differences they are not perceptible, it's always the same horrible feeling, regardless of the plant source.

I really could not tell belladonna from datura from brugmansia...

( a Dimenhydrinate over-dose also feels nearly identical to datura )

It's a "scrambled" and unpleasant mind state, a complete malfunction of the mind, it's intolerable, then there are the behaviors, you will smoke imaginary cigarettes, talk to people who are not there, experience scenes and events which feel real but which are only in the mind, there are blackouts and amnesia, there is urinary retention, blurred vision, restlessness, delirium, open and closed eye hallucination, ...it a terrible thing to go through.

...though somehow I don't have regrets, I can't believe that I ever explored these tropane alkaloid containing deliriant plants, it's seems insane looking back on it, but I don't have any regrets.

These plants have very little use for recreation, you are more likely to harm or traumatize yourself than anything else, these plants can kill you, the danger is very real, and in my opinion, these plants should be left alone.

-eg

 

[exquisitus]

i have a brugmansia. and tell you the truth fwtw i have NOT seen any ill effects from eating leaves... the only problem is that it taste like grass and i feel like a bull which is not particularly enjoyable

 

[OfTheVoid46]

Those of you who have experience using tropane plants:

Would you say each plant is unique in terms of the experience? And what is the difference between Datura, Belladonna, Henbane, Mandrake etc. used either to enhance the effect of another plant, or when used on its own for inner travel & exploration or traditional "witchraft" purpose.

Obviously they are similar on a chemical level, but do they each have energies on their own in the same way dmt sources or mushroom species differs from one another? Is the delirium state affected depending specific plant used and in what way?

I am fully aware of the danger tropane alkaloids poses, and I am familiar on my own having experienced some nightshade mixtures, although I cannot at this point draw any conclusions.

Surely some of you could give input on the matter?

Travel safely, and thank you for being sensible and responsible human beings.

Between Datura (flowers, seeds, leaves), Belladonna (roots) and Brugmansia I cannot say I notice a difference between them. Any time I've done them I did test doses starting low until I hit what I was aiming for.

They all had the "OMG what did I just do to myself" feel followed by hours of amusing confusion and life-like hallucinations.

Regarding spirit/energy, I always feel alone while using tropanes. There at least in my experience hasn't been any sort of "presence" like with tryptamines and alike.

As far as mixing with Ayahuasca, I'd say the same. The difference being is that anytime I used them in the brew it wasn't to the extent I'd use them solo. Generally speaking, they seemed to make the experience a bit more difficult and prone to time loops and such. If I had two brews made the same except one with belladonna and one with datura, I would not be able to tell the difference.

It's hard to gauge an accurate dose unless you were to have a decent amount which you could thoroughly mix up and test in small amounts to get a feel for. I'd never consider tossing them in a brew without knowing the solo dosage for a batch.

In aya you do not want an amount that would give you delirium. I would not suggest anyone mix them period really so there's my disclaimer but the best way I could describe how they all affect the brew is (to me) that it makes it stronger, potentially more negative and more "magic-like".

I figured I'd share what I could on the matter. Personally I've stopped using tropanes. I learned what I did about them as safe as possible but that's not something I intend to repeatedly push my luck with.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

i have a brugmansia. and tell you the truth fwtw i have NOT seen any ill effects from eating leaves... the only problem is that it taste like grass and i feel like a bull which is not particularly enjoyable

You are sure it's a brugmansia?

The seeds and leaf of brugmansia trees are rich in scopolamine, atropine, hyoscyamine, and other tropane alkaloids, and generally consumption of even small amounts of leaf or seed can cause poisoning.

Also, It should have a bitter taste...

-eg

 

[starway6]

No Belladonna is not for reecoration it is a witches brew!

I tryed some many years ago it was solid hallucinations and i was a helpless zombie while on it...

If you take anything in this class of substances ...you BETTER!.. have a sitter near by that you trust to stop you from wandering outside into the street!

I was lying on my bed after taking a teaspoon of the powder ..sudenly my bed stood upright on end!..and ..[in my mind]..i was sudenly in the back yard... every speck on my walls were crawling colorfull bugs..spiders ect...

I sat on the carpet staring into it ...and every fiber was a molecular world of its own...i was like a helpless child ..too much belladona can stop your heart...

There are far more safer substances to take than this .. witchs brew..



ashmadore powder..yuk! - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT ...
Welcome to the DMT-Nexus › ... › OTHER ENTHEOGENS › Other Psychoactives
Nov 30, 2013 - 1 post - ‎1 author
Many years ago .as a curious teen i tryed something called Ashmadore powder.. An old ashma remedy that worked to releive symtoms of the ...

 

[starway6]

ashmadore powder..yuk! - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT ...
Welcome to the DMT-Nexus › ... › OTHER ENTHEOGENS › Other Psychoactives
Nov 30, 2013 - 1 post - ‎1 author
Many years ago .as a curious teen i tryed something called Ashmadore powder.. An old ashma remedy that worked to releive symtoms of the ...

 

[Redguard]

I've experimented with many of these plants and haven't had one bad experience yet. One should never consume raw plant material but do a crude extraction on a medium where you can be sure of an even distribution of alkaloids. Start extremely low and titrate up. It's that simple. Although I find all these bad trip reports hilarious, I do hope people learn how to use these plants with the respect they diserve. Demonising them is really taking things a step too far, it really is the user's fault. Google is your friend, they have been successfully used for a millennia. They work as a great meditation aid and are very potent lucid dreaming tools. Make sure you limit your use to once or twice a month so that you don't risk building up alkaloids in your system. There really is no point to take yourself much beyond the threshold effects.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

How do you do your "crude" extraction and what medium you recommend? And how much material you need about? Just to have rough guessing ballpark dosage.

 

[Redguard]

I apologize in advance for being vague but I believe that if someone were to attempt to experiment with these plants then they should do be doing their own adequate levels of research on the subject, not just what they see some random guy post on the internet. That being said, I've use tinctures measured out to drops, olive oil used for topical administration and I've even made my own beer using henbane. Alkaloid content varies considerably between sources and once you factor in tolerance it can be quite difficult for me to recommend the dose. This is the inherent difficulty whilst working with this plant. I recommend you grow your own and start out extremely small. This is all I will say on the subject.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

We have plenty of them in our garden, so this wouldn't be a problem. But as I heard terrible stories about scopolamine (e.g. dust blown in face can even kill you), I never dared to make an extraction.

What would in your opinion be an extremely small dose to start with? E.g. relating to a flower?
I understand, if you don't wanna be more specific.

So you don't use it mainly orally, but administer it topically?
I read from someone before, who did use it that way, and said in his opinion it's the best method (he mixed it with a fat and administered it to his "lower parts").

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I've experimented with many of these plants and haven't had one bad experience yet. One should never consume raw plant material but do a crude extraction on a medium where you can be sure of an even distribution of alkaloids. Start extremely low and titrate up. It's that simple. Although I find all these bad trip reports hilarious, I do hope people learn how to use these plants with the respect they diserve. Demonising them is really taking things a step too far, it really is the user's fault. Google is your friend, they have been successfully used for a millennia. They work as a great meditation aid and are very potent lucid dreaming tools. Make sure you limit your use to once or twice a month so that you don't risk building up alkaloids in your system. There really is no point to take yourself much beyond the threshold effects.

(I have had a terrible cold, and as a result of antihistamines, decongestants, and a lack of sleep, I'm feeling pretty "groggy", I apologize if my posts reflect this.)

In my case, In every dose range there's never been anything pleasant about these plants, I do not like my brain completely malfunctioning, and that all these compounds seem to induce...

...then again, I've known people who enjoy overdosing on dramamine, so I can see how people could enjoy these plants as well, though personally I think they are poisons, and any benneficial potentials are far outweighed by the negative effects and high level of risk.

These are not recreational plants...

I can't say that eating raw plant matter is a common route of administration in my experience. A decoction is generally made by boiling plant matter in water. The leaf can be smoked and The seeds can be placed in alcohol. (Transdermal ointments, alcohol preperations/tinctures, and extracts have been reported, but are not common)

I love these plants history, and my ordeals involving these plants did ultimately have shamanic and spiritual value, so I can understand how shamans and witches could have found ways to incorporate these plants into their practice , but for the average individual I think these plants should be left alone, even for psychedelic enthusiasts I generally recommend that these plants be left alone. You are more likely to become traumatized, or injured, or killed than you are to have any positive or enjoyable effect.

Funny history:

It is said that witches are depicted as being "green skinned" and being associated with "flying brooms" because in the past witches would make ointments from tropane alkaloid containing plants and they would use broom sticks to rub the green plant salve onto their naked bodies...

Funny story:

In the United States, the plant is called "jimsonweed", or more rarely "Jamestown weed"; it got this name from the town of Jamestown, Virginia, where British soldiers consumed it while attempting to suppress Bacon's Rebellion. They spent 11 days in altered mental states:

The James-Town Weed (which resembles the Thorny Apple of Peru, and I take to be the plant so call'd) is supposed to be one of the greatest coolers in the world. This being an early plant, was gather'd very young for a boil'd salad, by some of the soldiers sent thither to quell the rebellion of Bacon (1676); and some of them ate plentifully of it, the effect of which was a very pleasant comedy, for they turned natural fools upon it for several days: one would blow up a feather in the air; another would dart straws at it with much fury; and another, stark naked, was sitting up in a corner like a monkey, grinning and making mows [grimaces] at them; a fourth would fondly kiss and paw his companions, and sneer in their faces with a countenance more antic than any in a Dutch droll.

In this frantic condition they were confined, lest they should, in their folly, destroy themselves—though it was observed that all their actions were full of innocence and good nature. Indeed, they were not very cleanly; for they would have wallowed in their own excrements, if they had not been prevented. A thousand such simple tricks they played, and after eleven days returned themselves again, not remembering anything that had passed.

— Robert Beverley, Jr., The History and Present State of Virginia, Book II: Of the Natural Product and Conveniencies in Its Unimprov'd State, Before the English Went Thither, 1705 -Wikipedia

-eg

 

[Redguard]

I've experimented with many of these plants and haven't had one bad experience yet. One should never consume raw plant material but do a crude extraction on a medium where you can be sure of an even distribution of alkaloids. Start extremely low and titrate up. It's that simple. Although I find all these bad trip reports hilarious, I do hope people learn how to use these plants with the respect they diserve. Demonising them is really taking things a step too far, it really is the user's fault. Google is your friend, they have been successfully used for a millennia. They work as a great meditation aid and are very potent lucid dreaming tools. Make sure you limit your use to once or twice a month so that you don't risk building up alkaloids in your system. There really is no point to take yourself much beyond the threshold effects.

(I have had a terrible cold, and as a result of antihistamines, decongestants, and a lack of sleep, I'm feeling pretty "groggy", I apologize if my posts reflect this.)

In my case, In every dose range there's never been anything pleasant about these plants, I do not like my brain completely malfunctioning, and that all these compounds seem to induce...

...then again, I've known people who enjoy overdosing on dramamine, so I can see how people could enjoy these plants as well, though personally I think they are poisons, and any benneficial potentials are far outweighed by the negative effects and high level of risk.

These are not recreational plants...

I can't say that eating raw plant matter is a common route of administration in my experience. A decoction is generally made by boiling plant matter in water. The leaf can be smoked and The seeds can be placed in alcohol. (Transdermal ointments, alcohol preperations/tinctures, and extracts have been reported, but are not common)

I love these plants history, and my ordeals involving these plants did ultimately have shamanic and spiritual value, so I can understand how shamans and witches could have found ways to incorporate these plants into their practice , but for the average individual I think these plants should be left alone, even for psychedelic enthusiasts I generally recommend that these plants be left alone. You are more likely to become traumatized, or injured, or killed than you are to have any positive or enjoyable effect.

Funny history:

It is said that witches are depicted as being "green skinned" and being associated with "flying brooms" because in the past witches would make ointments from tropane alkaloid containing plants and they would use broom sticks to rub the green plant salve onto their naked bodies...

Funny story:

In the United States, the plant is called "jimsonweed", or more rarely "Jamestown weed"; it got this name from the town of Jamestown, Virginia, where British soldiers consumed it while attempting to suppress Bacon's Rebellion. They spent 11 days in altered mental states:

The James-Town Weed (which resembles the Thorny Apple of Peru, and I take to be the plant so call'd) is supposed to be one of the greatest coolers in the world. This being an early plant, was gather'd very young for a boil'd salad, by some of the soldiers sent thither to quell the rebellion of Bacon (1676); and some of them ate plentifully of it, the effect of which was a very pleasant comedy, for they turned natural fools upon it for several days: one would blow up a feather in the air; another would dart straws at it with much fury; and another, stark naked, was sitting up in a corner like a monkey, grinning and making mows [grimaces] at them; a fourth would fondly kiss and paw his companions, and sneer in their faces with a countenance more antic than any in a Dutch droll.

In this frantic condition they were confined, lest they should, in their folly, destroy themselves—though it was observed that all their actions were full of innocence and good nature. Indeed, they were not very cleanly; for they would have wallowed in their own excrements, if they had not been prevented. A thousand such simple tricks they played, and after eleven days returned themselves again, not remembering anything that had passed.

— Robert Beverley, Jr., The History and Present State of Virginia, Book II: Of the Natural Product and Conveniencies in Its Unimprov'd State, Before the English Went Thither, 1705 -Wikipedia

-eg

Before I experimented with these plants I spent many weeks researching them. I would say making a tea is the second most dangerous approach. Tinctures and transdermal ointments when made correctly can deliver enough into your system for you to get a feel for the plant without experiencing its poisonous effects. The fact that you haven't experienced anything pleasurable from these plants is proof enough that your approach is flawed. You got to have some major cajones to ingest a tea. I'll give you that much EG.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

when made correctly can deliver enough into your system for you to get a feel for the plant without experiencing its poisonous effects

After reading this thread:

Questions about Datura? - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I basically got, that Datura is only something you wanna do in low non delirium doses, where you won't have any hallucinations.
Is that what you meant Redguard?
In the doses you do, you already experience the mouth dryness? It is said that this is very annoying.

 

[Swayambhu]

I've only had datura as an admixture in bhang= darkness, delirium and stupefaction, and as a section of flower as "prasad", which had no effect other than to make one of my hands feel weird, dead or belonging to some other version of myself, which actually may not have had anything to do with the datura.

Anecdotal evidence from the few people I know who have taken a committed dose of this class of drugs is mostly defined by delirium & memory loss.

We're all adults here and nobody likes to be told what to do, but one thing I think a lot of people don't realise when looking at historical or cultural precedents is that those people didn't/don't mess around. There is no limit because they really believe. It's not a metaphor for them, and true belief is not something many of us who operate in this post-modernist culture are blessed with.

 

[Swayambhu]

I've only had datura as an admixture in bhang= darkness, delirium and stupefaction, and as a section of flower as "prasad", which had no effect other than to make one of my hands feel weird, dead or belonging to some other version of myself, which actually may not have had anything to do with the datura.

Anecdotal evidence from the few people I know who have taken a committed dose of this class of drugs is mostly defined by delirium & memory loss.

We're all adults here and nobody likes to be told what to do, but one thing I think a lot of people don't realise when looking at historical or cultural precedents for using things like datura or belladonna is that those people didn't/don't mess around. There is no limit because they really believe. It's not a metaphor for them, and true belief is not something many of us who operate in this post-modernist culture are blessed with.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I've experimented with many of these plants and haven't had one bad experience yet. One should never consume raw plant material but do a crude extraction on a medium where you can be sure of an even distribution of alkaloids. Start extremely low and titrate up. It's that simple. Although I find all these bad trip reports hilarious, I do hope people learn how to use these plants with the respect they diserve. Demonising them is really taking things a step too far, it really is the user's fault. Google is your friend, they have been successfully used for a millennia. They work as a great meditation aid and are very potent lucid dreaming tools. Make sure you limit your use to once or twice a month so that you don't risk building up alkaloids in your system. There really is no point to take yourself much beyond the threshold effects.

(I have had a terrible cold, and as a result of antihistamines, decongestants, and a lack of sleep, I'm feeling pretty "groggy", I apologize if my posts reflect this.)

In my case, In every dose range there's never been anything pleasant about these plants, I do not like my brain completely malfunctioning, and that all these compounds seem to induce...

...then again, I've known people who enjoy overdosing on dramamine, so I can see how people could enjoy these plants as well, though personally I think they are poisons, and any benneficial potentials are far outweighed by the negative effects and high level of risk.

These are not recreational plants...

I can't say that eating raw plant matter is a common route of administration in my experience. A decoction is generally made by boiling plant matter in water. The leaf can be smoked and The seeds can be placed in alcohol. (Transdermal ointments, alcohol preperations/tinctures, and extracts have been reported, but are not common)

I love these plants history, and my ordeals involving these plants did ultimately have shamanic and spiritual value, so I can understand how shamans and witches could have found ways to incorporate these plants into their practice , but for the average individual I think these plants should be left alone, even for psychedelic enthusiasts I generally recommend that these plants be left alone. You are more likely to become traumatized, or injured, or killed than you are to have any positive or enjoyable effect.

Funny history:

It is said that witches are depicted as being "green skinned" and being associated with "flying brooms" because in the past witches would make ointments from tropane alkaloid containing plants and they would use broom sticks to rub the green plant salve onto their naked bodies...

Funny story:

In the United States, the plant is called "jimsonweed", or more rarely "Jamestown weed"; it got this name from the town of Jamestown, Virginia, where British soldiers consumed it while attempting to suppress Bacon's Rebellion. They spent 11 days in altered mental states:

The James-Town Weed (which resembles the Thorny Apple of Peru, and I take to be the plant so call'd) is supposed to be one of the greatest coolers in the world. This being an early plant, was gather'd very young for a boil'd salad, by some of the soldiers sent thither to quell the rebellion of Bacon (1676); and some of them ate plentifully of it, the effect of which was a very pleasant comedy, for they turned natural fools upon it for several days: one would blow up a feather in the air; another would dart straws at it with much fury; and another, stark naked, was sitting up in a corner like a monkey, grinning and making mows [grimaces] at them; a fourth would fondly kiss and paw his companions, and sneer in their faces with a countenance more antic than any in a Dutch droll.

In this frantic condition they were confined, lest they should, in their folly, destroy themselves—though it was observed that all their actions were full of innocence and good nature. Indeed, they were not very cleanly; for they would have wallowed in their own excrements, if they had not been prevented. A thousand such simple tricks they played, and after eleven days returned themselves again, not remembering anything that had passed.

— Robert Beverley, Jr., The History and Present State of Virginia, Book II: Of the Natural Product and Conveniencies in Its Unimprov'd State, Before the English Went Thither, 1705 -Wikipedia

-eg

Before I experimented with these plants I spent many weeks researching them. I would say making a tea is the second most dangerous approach. Tinctures and transdermal ointments when made correctly can deliver enough into your system for you to get a feel for the plant without experiencing its poisonous effects. The fact that you haven't experienced anything pleasurable from these plants is proof enough that your approach is flawed. You got to have some major cajones to ingest a tea. I'll give you that much EG.

I also had done my research before I experimented with these plants.

(Ever since I was in elementary school and found a copy of "Flowering Plants: Magic in Bloom" by P. Mick Richardson in my school library I have been fascinated by these plants, and from a very young age I have been aware of, and educated regarding, psychoactive plants of all sorts)

On one occasion I rolled a small amount of datura leaf into a "cigarette", I smoked the entire cigarette, and felt nothing at the time, I assumed the experiment to have been a failure and went to sleep, I woke up around six hours later in a delirious state...same horrible feeling, though at a much lower dose and a different route of administration.

It's this "horrible feeling" that these tropane alkaloid containing plants induce that the shamans have incorporated into their work. When the plant is used, it is this "horrible feeling" which is the desired effect, *I don't think it was ever meant to be an enjoyable experience*...

Tropane alkaloid containing plants could be seen as "shamanic ordeal poisons"...

Any way, I think I have already made my opinion clear, and will leave with some miscellaneous terence McKenna on the topic.

we find in Indian graves of the Tara Humara and so forth are the seeds of sophora secundiflora. sophora secundiflora is a highly poisonous legume which contains cytisine, this is an example of what we call not a psychedelic but an ordeal poision. In certain part of the world this approach to spiritual growth has been taken, most notably on the island of Madagascar off the coast of East Africa.

What is an ordeal poison? This is a plant where you take it and you are so convinced that you are dying that you have an experience of self-abandonment, getting straight, surrender, and then you live…and you’re fine.

But you are absolutely convinced that you are dying, your heart pounds or fibrulates, or you convulse, or you fall into deep coma, or you have tetnis in the limbs, and then you recover.

Anybody can tell you this is a kind of psychedelic experience because you are so damn glad you lived that you see everything in a new light, you can be kind to your children, and love your wife, and tolerate your relatives.

People say “Well it made a new man out of him!” Well yes because he came to close to dying that he shed neurotic behavior patterns, but this is not a true psychedelic.

What we’re assuming about 500 or 1,000 years ago, sometime in that span, the Sephora cult was replaced by the peyote cult which came from a much smaller usage area.

Then also in southern California there were what was called the toloache religions, religions of datura intoxication. Initiation of young men by intoxicating them with datura and then leaving them in the wilderness to fend for themselves.

Again this comes close to being an ordeal poison although it also has psychoactive properties but so confusing, such a delirient that it bears no relationship to the true hallucinogens.---terence McKenna

The below transcription is terrible, it's disorganized and full of errors, but I did not have the time to transcribe it myself, so I had to use the available transcription even though it's low quality...

it might be worthwhile to just talk for a minute about ordeal poisons. i said theres more than one way to skin a cat, theres more than one way to have this experience to shove your through to an awareness of the numinous, thats what we're trying to do, is have an awareness of the numinous, well in a certain part of the world where hallucinogens were not present in the biome people are concentrated on ordeal poisons, and what an ordeal poison is, is it's a chemical compound that you take it, and you think you're going to die, and you want to die, and you beg for death and you do not die, instead, you recover, you get better you're fine
and you're so damn glad to be alive that you undergo an aberration, you get straight,
you shed some of your complexes and you turn over a new leaf

in madagascar these ordeal poisons have been brought to a high state of perfection
also in malayia theres a poison complex that replaces a hullainogencic drug complex and these are horrific poisons, so, what apparently was going on in the rio grande valley was after centuries of this Sophora secundiflora cult someone discovered peyote and said my god
thank god!

...and the other the other plant which was big in the southern california northern mexico and across the southwest were the tropane containing daturas, the so called toloache religion of southern california, where these are deliriant confusants that unless you have a psychic constitution that is much different than my own, you can't take these things, they're too... i just found them confusing it was like a kind of madness and also physically they were very difficult to handle. I experimented, I had a phase with these things when I was in nepal because there are sadhus in the catnandu valley who swear by this stuff and if you're in catmanda you may notice in the gutter - well you'll notice plenty in the gutter
but you may also notice these detura pods, empty detura pods, and i noticed them and started asking questions and then out at the kings game preserve past pashupatina i found a bunch of these things and layer in a supply but it is an occult watery-

its a dimension of confusion not a dimension of high awareness and i think some of you have heard me tell the story about the reason i gave it up was an english men a friend of mine who lived in this little village in nepal where i lived he was also experimenting with this stuff
and one day i was buying potatoes and tomatoes in the market and i ran into him and we started having a conversation and in the course of the conversation he revealed that he believed we were in his apartment - and then i knew we were losing hold on our grounding
uh so i don't recommend that i don't have a whole lot to say about it
apparently its a thing for magic power magic
and i've never been particularly interested in that because I'm afraid of it
I'm uh I'm a watcher i like to look i like to get very close to it and watch it
but I'm not into grabbing it or doing anything with it
i have a feeling that would lead to a catastrophe
for me personally
-terence McKenna

-eg

 

[Bancopuma]

I thought I'd share my experience report of Brugmansia flower tea from quite a few years back, in case it is of interest. We all know here that use of these Solanaceous plants entails significant physical and psychological risk, so I don't condone or encourage use of these plants. I can also say that while the experience was quite interesting, I can't say it was particularly useful or enjoyable, it is very hard to bring back anything of use from that state. I think the classical psychedelics are much more useful in the sense you can have one foot in that world, and one foot in this one (most of the time). To be in a Solanaceous plant trance is to have the rug completely pulled from under your feet, and you topple backwards into a realm of pure hallucination, pure delirium.

Recently I acquired 10g of shredded Brugmansia, and having a gap between studies, wanted to try it out. Having experimented with a wide range of chemicals, psychedelics in particular, I was intrigued by what a 'deliriant' hallucinogen had to offer. I had experienced a threshold dose of Datura previous to this a few years ago, but I wanted to push the boat out a bit.

Two good friends would be taking this journey with me. I had very recently turned my friends onto the wonders of psychedelic chemicals: LSD, mescaline and mushrooms, which they had dug a lot. Besides that, we drink, and smoke my home grown ganja fairly often.

To prepare the concoction I simply boiled a kettle, let it sit for a while, and then poured the still hot water into a cup with the shredded Brugmasia flowers (there were just under 3, as I had smoked some of the material previously). This was stirred occasionally, the water was allowed to cool, and then the potion was filtered with kitchen roll. The resulting dark brown liquid was a lot less offensive to the palate than ayahuasca, but here was something nasty about it. This was split three ways and rapidly downed. We also took a few caps of dream herb, Calea zacatechichi to aid the dream effects of the Brugmansia.

I wasn’t sure what to expect-if anything. After a while of nothing happening, we all realised that we were actually very sozzled, in a weird way. A bit of a stoned feeling, but also like an alcohol intoxication, very different to a psychedelic. Although not the most pleasant sort of intoxication, it really wasn’t that bad either. On standing the effects were even more apparent, in that it was hard to walk. It felt like this dirty electricity was dancing over my skin. I remember going to the toilet and seeing the floor of the toilet turn to visual liquid and swirl around, very much akin to the effects of a classical psychedelic. I remember being impressed with myself that I was aware (at this point) that the visual distortions were down to the Brugmansia I had ingested...clearly the deliriant effects had not kicked in yet. After sharing a joint, we retired to bed.

This is when it really started to get weird. Although I felt very tired, I couldn’t sleep for a long time. Later, I fell into some kind of dream/hallucitory state. This was strange. I had forgotten I had taken something, and for the life of me couldn’t tell whether I was awake or dreaming for the entire night. Things that had been on my mind earlier would surface in my dreams/visions. I had long in depth talks to both of my friends, who sat on the end of my bed. Of course, they were only in my mind. Both my friends reported the same thing on waking. It was a very good thing I was confined to my bedroom for this phase of the experience.

I’ve been trying to induce lucid dreams recently, and several times I became lucid, realising I was dreaming-but not that I was intoxicated on Brugmansia. Several times I woke up and had no idea where I was, or thought I was sleeping at the other end of my bed for some reason.

I had a long lie in and on waking didn’t feel bad at all. Both of my friends had also had a strange night, filled with vivid, waking dreams. The vivid dreams continued into the second night. The next day I felt fine, but not sober. My friends were the same. Trying to study was a fruitless exercise. My friend said that when intoxicated his nerves felt excited and energised, and he would like to have hit something. I recall feared warriors somewhere in Amazonia using this plant before battle.

For the next few days a weird side effect was noticed by all of us-we couldn’t focus on anything near to our eyes, so reading was made difficult.

I was glad to have a breakthrough experience with the Brugmasia. It was less of an ordeal than I expected it to be from reports, and the waking dream state was interesting. I don’t think I have any desire to repeat the experience though, having done it. This plant definitely has a more toxic, threatening vibe than the psychedelics. I can see this plant would change the nature of ayahuasca dramatically if used in preparation.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Very interesting!

I'm really wondering about the effect differences of Atropine, Hyoscyamine and Scopolamine.

Sure these are very similar structurally, but e.g. this is also the case for the different trypts, but they also do have very different effects.

I would think that most people ever having tried tropanes have no idea, which substance or mix of it they actually consumed. From what I read so far it seems like Scopolamine is the worst, being very deliriant.

Has anybody any information about this?

Edit:
Just read some things I didn't know yet. As it seems in the plant themselves there's no Atropine, but only (S)-Hyoscyamine. Upon extraction (PH>7) or drying, the racemat is partly built, so the (R)-Hyoscyamine. The 1:1 racemat mixture (S and R) is called Atropine.

Scopolamine is built in the plants from Hyoscyamine (This conversion can also be done in the lab).
As it seems e.g. Atropa Belladonna builds almost no Scopolamine, whereas e.g. Brugmansia builds quite a lot of it.

For Atropine I found this data on Wikipedia about lethality:
10mg delirium and hallucinations set in (can already be deadly for small children)
>=100mg can be deadly
LD50 for humans is 453mg (how did they test this???)

!I take no responsibility for correctness of the above!

As I read a bit around, it seems to me, that Scopolamine is more apathetic, you get more willingless and more memory loss, than Hyoscyamine. But they both seem similar from the actual true hallucinations delirium state.

From this POV if one would ever want to experiment with these substances at all, one should probably rather go with plants containing mainly Hyoscyamine than Scopolamine...

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Another interesting historical note related to these tropane alkaloid containing plants involves these plants history as chemical weapons, and the use of related compounds in modern times for the same purpose....

Ancient psycho-chemical use
The use of chemicals to induce altered states of mind dates back to antiquity and includes the use of plants such as thornapple (Datura stramonium) that contain combinations of anticholinergic alkaloids. In 184 B.C., Hannibal's army used belladonna plants to induce disorientation.[citation needed]

Use by indigenous peoples
Records indicate that in 1611, in the British Jamestown Colony of Virginia, an unidentified, but toxic and hallucinogenic, drug derived from local plants was deployed with some success against the white settlers by Chief Powhatan.[3]*

In 1881, members of a French railway surveying expedition crossing Tuareg territory in North Africa ate dried dates that tribesmen had apparently deliberately contaminated with Egyptian henbane (Hyoscyamus muticus, or H. falezlez), to devastating effect.
-Wikipedia

*this interested me, because we are all aware of the famous poisoning at Jamestown in 1676**, but I was not previously aware that in 1611, in Jamestown, Chief Powhatan used "an unidentified, but toxic and hallucinogenic, drug derived from local plants" to poison white settlers.

**

In the United States, the plant is called "jimsonweed", or more rarely "Jamestown weed"; it got this name from the town of Jamestown, Virginia, where British soldiers consumed it while attempting to suppress Bacon's Rebellion. They spent 11 days in altered mental states:

The James-Town Weed (which resembles the Thorny Apple of Peru, and I take to be the plant so call'd) is supposed to be one of the greatest coolers in the world. This being an early plant, was gather'd very young for a boil'd salad, by some of the soldiers sent thither to quell the rebellion of Bacon (1676); and some of them ate plentifully of it, the effect of which was a very pleasant comedy, for they turned natural fools upon it for several days: one would blow up a feather in the air; another would dart straws at it with much fury; and another, stark naked, was sitting up in a corner like a monkey, grinning and making mows [grimaces] at them; a fourth would fondly kiss and paw his companions, and sneer in their faces with a countenance more antic than any in a Dutch droll.

In this frantic condition they were confined, lest they should, in their folly, destroy themselves—though it was observed that all their actions were full of innocence and good nature. Indeed, they were not very cleanly; for they would have wallowed in their own excrements, if they had not been prevented. A thousand such simple tricks they played, and after eleven days returned themselves again, not remembering anything that had passed.

— Robert Beverley, Jr., The History and Present State of Virginia, Book II: Of the Natural Product and Conveniencies in Its Unimprov'd State, Before the English Went Thither, 1705 -Wikipedia

Below is further information regarding these plants being employed as poisons:

All Datura plants contain tropane alkaloids such as scopolamine, hyoscyamine, and atropine, primarily in their seeds and flowers. Because of the presence of these substances, Datura has been used for centuries in some cultures as a poison.[6][7] There can be a 5:1 toxin variation between plants,[citation needed] and a given plant's toxicity depends on its age, where it is growing, and the local weather conditions. These variations makes Datura exceptionally hazardous as a drug.

In traditional cultures, a great deal of experience with and detailed knowledge of Datura was critical to minimize harm.[6] Many tragic incidents result from modern users ingesting Datura. For example, in the 1990s and 2000s, the United States media contained stories of adolescents and young adults dying or becoming seriously ill from intentionally ingesting Datura.[8][9] There are also several reports in the medical literature of deaths from D. stramonium and D. ferox intoxication.[10][11][12] Children are especially vulnerable to atropine poisoning.[13][14]

Datura toxins may be ingested accidentally by consumption of honey produced by several wasp species, including Brachygastra lecheguana, during the Datura blooming season. It appears that these semi-domesticated honey wasps collect Datura nectar for honey production which can lead to poisoning.[15]

In some parts of Europe and India, Datura has been a popular poison for suicide and murder. From 1950 to 1965, the State Chemical Laboratories in Agra, India, investigated 2,778 deaths caused by ingesting Datura -Wikipedia

In modern times a compound called "3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate" or "BZ" was employed as a chemical weapon. 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate is similar in structure, it contains a tropane grouping, and is quite similar in pharmacological effect to the tropane alkaloid containing plants:

3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate (QNB) — IUPAC name 1-azabicyclo[2.2.2]oct-3-yl 2-hydroxy-2,2-diphenylacetate; US Army code EA-2277; NATO code BZ; Soviet code Substance 78 — is an odorless military incapacitating agent.[1]

BZ is a glycolate anticholinergic compound related to atropine, scopolamine, hyoscyamine, and other deliriants. Dispersal would be as an aerosolized solid (primarily for inhalation) or as agent dissolved in one or more solvents for ingestion or percutaneous absorption.

Acting as a competitive non-selective blocker at postsynaptic and postjunctional muscarinic receptor sites in smooth muscle, exocrine glands, and the brain, BZ decreases the effective concentration of acetylcholine seen by receptors at these sites. Thus, BZ causes PNS effects that in general are the opposite of those seen in nerve agent poisoning. CNS effects include stupor, confusion, and confabulation with concrete and panoramic illusions and hallucinations, and with regression to primitive, involuntary behaviors such as floccillation and disrobing
-Wikipedia

-eg