Depression Chemical Imbalance Doesn't Exist

[murphythecat]

of course some people with depression are happy to be reassured that its a chemical imbalance in their brain that causes their problems!

They are happy to know that they cant do anything against that.

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

So, you can't wait to hurt some people who are already hurting? That's nice.

"I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse. "

Maybe you need to do some more inner work if you are really just so keen on going out and telling people they dont really have any problems etc just because of this shotty article you read.

I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse.

I hope that when you are at your lowest moment in life someone stops and reaches a hand down to help you up instead of 'dishing' it out to you for being such a pansy.

Peace

Okay everyone, I get the point! Obviously I was making a brash statement out of pure ignorance and very little experience with depression as, I have never experienced depression other than to the extent of what I would consider an ordinary gloomy feeling or sadness. Also, I have not been around many people who experience depression.

So as Jamie points out here

It was not mergerd because I locked the origional "depression chemical Imabalance Doesn't exist" due to exactly the way this is all going now..many people who dont really understand what they are talking about in relation to such a complex topic just spouting out unempathetic and somewhat irrelevant personal opinions.

I’ll admit I’m one of those people, that’s exactly why I came to the Nexus to post this thread, so that I may be informed about something I don’t have much experience with. That way, the people who are experienced in coping with themselves, or treating others, can elucidate and educate the :

people going off on tangets about depression when in reality it seems they dont undertand the phenomenon enough to make these sort of judgements.

Like I’ve stated before, I didn’t understand, so I came to the Nexus to receive the insights of those that are more experienced than me. For that reason I must question why Jamie would want this thread locked or closed in the first place? Due to the information presented here, and the critical responses to my statement, I am now more aware of how depression may affect people, so instead of going out in the real world and ignorantly making a brash statement that could have detrimental effects to someone suffering from depression, I can now act with repose and express empathy.

So it seems counter-intuitive that you’d lock the thread to prevent the uninformed to keep fromm posting misinformation, but in the process it’d disable those who continue receiving the valuable information that’s posted by those who are more informed, seems like that would defeat the purpose. Now those people may be getting information they didn’t have access to, and if you’re concerned about the one’s making the uninformed statements in respects to the people who are seeking important information about their depression, well I think we can give them more credit, in believing that they are able to filter out the misinformation for themselves?

Also I recognize that the title of this thread, along with the article might be misleading.

The whole thing started with the idea that chemcial depression does noe exist..which is what that origional article suggest..then when evidence was put forth that suggests it does exist people wanted to argue that the article linked was not saying that it does not exist but that medication is not the best approach etc..

The article title says that ‘Chemical depression does not exist’ but if you read the article it is simply suggesting that there is no hard scientific evidence to conclude that it is a chemical imbalance, and that we should be more cautious about using pharmaceuticals to treat it.

She says that although doctors, the media, and society in general has latched on to the idea that depression and anxiety, for example, are just evidence of a “chemical imbalance” in the brain, there is no hard evidence to support this.

“Scientific research has not detected any reliable abnormalities of the serotonin system in people who are depressed.”

While many people are convinced this is indeed their problem and therefore are okay with being offered a drug to solve the “problem”, she says the problem is that we are minimizing the seriousness of taking drugs to solve a “mental disorder.”

In decades past, there was a stigma associated with mental health drugs. While it’s debatable whether this stigma was justified, there’s little doubt that it did make people think twice about taking medication for depression.
Now, however, we are convinced that these drugs are correcting a defect in the brain. The drugs are correcting an “imbalance.” But the problem is, that imbalance has never been proven.

I think polytrip summed up the article best.

No-one would say that these are nice things. They´re serious medicines with serious side-effects

.

Dr. Moncrieff isn’t suggesting that people take cheaper illegal drugs, since they may have similar effects, but instead wants people to really get real about their anti-depression or anti-anxiety medications– what are they really doing to themselves when they rise each morning and pop the same pill, occasionally having to up their dosage because their body has developed a tolerance.
And with the number of Americans on antidepressant medication estimated to be 1 in 10, perhaps a critical look at this drug trade is warranted.

I would like to thank everyone who is activley participating in this thread as it's been a valuable learning experience for me.

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

taking one look at the typical mainstream western diet it is not hard to imagine why chemical imbalances could just come out of nowhere and cause people to go downhill quickly.

This is why I personally might suggest healthy dieting and exercise before pharma. :d

 

[polytrip]

Well I would say that I am the living proof that serious depression can be entirely a chemical imbalance, can develop with no external cause whatsoever, and can be completely cured with antidepressants.

My depression came out of a clear blue sky. My life was completely perfect in every way - wife, children, good enough house, useful work, liveable income, plenty of exercise/outdoors time, spectacularly healthy diet, no past traumas etc.....but almost every minute of the day was spent thinking of ways to kill myself, I was completely unable to experience pleasure of any kind and my heart was filled with melancholy and intense sadness 24 hours a day. It got to the stage where I could do nothing but sit in a chair all day with my head slumped on my chest. Pretty bad!

I eventually went to the doctor, and was prescribed Fluoxetine. Within a few days (yes, I know doctors say that is not possible, but that's what happened) I experienced happiness for the first time in years. I stayed on the medication for ten years, as any attempt to reduce was impossible. After those ten years it suddenly felt like I was "cured", and I tapered off the tablets easily over a couple of months.

Nothing in my life had changed in the meantime. My past and my lifestyle were exactly as they had always been. It just seems that something had gone wrong in my brain, and I seemed to need that time of experiencing happiness as a sort of retraining to get me back on track. (When people say that antidepressants dull your emotions, I feel they haven't experienced the full-on nothingness of true depression before they started taking them...for me my time on antidepressants was when I started to feel a range of emotions again.)

So yes, that's my story - hope it provides a counterbalance to some of the rather sweeping opinions/judgements here. Sometimes serious depression can appear with seemingly no cause from the outside world - in which case therapy would be entirely useless, because there are no particular 'issues' to resolve. Well, none that relate to the depression anyway! .

I find it very brave of you to share this with all of us.
Your case is a clear example of how antidepressants CAN be of great value, when properly proscribed and taken.

I think that the anti-antidepressant mood stems from the fact that these med´s are being pushed rather agressively and being proscribed way too often to people who either don´t need them, or to people who are so vulnerable that just simply giving them a pill won´t be enough to realy help them.

But the fact that they are very often not being used in the right way, due to negligence of the doctors proscribing them, is not a valid argument against them. It´s an argument against negligence. Not against medicines.

 

[anrchy]

Well for me the argument isn't just that the doctors don't do more tests on the patient to see if certain antidepressants should be prescribed, its that te medicines were developed under the assumption rather than hard scientific evidence that this is what will cure depression. I would like to see a statistic if there is such a thing as to how many people are actually cured and can stop taking them as opposed to are still on them due to ongoing depression.

 

[3rdeyeopen]

WoW....where to start. First off I have to say that quite a few of you are extremely harsh in your opinion of depression AND fibromyalgia. I have been dealing with both depression and chronic pain for close to 10 years now. If it were really as easy as going out into the "real world" and putting on a happy face...well wouldn't that be nice! And it would also be nice if fibro were simply all in my head. I could just make it all go away by changing my mood or outlook on life. That would be grand indeed.

I really have enjoyed reading the thread, don't get me wrong but I must admit I get offended when reading people's posts who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you haven't been in someone's shoes, don't be so callous as to believe you know how or why they feel the way they do.

For me personally, anti depressants have not helped and getting off them is horrible. I keep going back to them thinking it might be different but not so. This does not mean they don't work for everyone. I definitely need to try therapy, but I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to talk about my debilitating thoughts and feelings, so it's been difficult to take that step.

I would like to thank those of you who have shared your personal experiences. It's nice to read that you are not alone.

Anyway, I just felt that I had to share my feelings on this thread as it is very personal to me. Also, I should probably mention that I am Anrchy's gf.

 

[SeekerOfTruths]

WoW....where to start. First off I have to say that quite a few of you are extremely harsh in your opinion of depression AND fibromyalgia. I have been dealing with both depression and chronic pain for close to 10 years now. If it were really as easy as going out into the "real world" and putting on a happy face...well wouldn't that be nice! And it would also be nice if fibro were simply all in my head. I could just make it all go away by changing my mood or outlook on life. That would be grand indeed.

I really have enjoyed reading the thread, don't get me wrong but I must admit I get offended when reading people's posts who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you haven't been in someone's shoes, don't be so callous as to believe you know how or why they feel the way they do.

For me personally, anti depressants have not helped and getting off them is horrible. I keep going back to them thinking it might be different but not so. This does not mean they don't work for everyone. I definitely need to try therapy, but I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to talk about my debilitating thoughts and feelings, so it's been difficult to take that step.

I would like to thank those of you who have shared your personal experiences. It's nice to read that you are not alone.

Anyway, I just felt that I had to share my feelings on this thread as it is very personal to me. Also, I should probably mention that I am Anrchy's gf.

I didn't mean any offense if you were regarding my post to fibromyalgia, I was stating most of the medical community does not believe it to be an actual disease, rather a mental disorder. On the same note I should have said I believe western medicine strongly under estimates the power of mental disorders. I personally believe that depression can and does lead to physical symptoms. And that likely fibromyalgia is some sort of neurological issue rather then a bodily issue, which doesn't make it less real, just different. One really fascinating read on the subject of the power of our brains is Phantom's In The Brain by Ramachandran, its slightly older but a fairly easy read without taking several years of medical courses.

I've been on anti-depressents before, and you are right, coming off is horrific! I do urge you to see someone, the fact you are uncomfortable talking about it only gives me more reason to believe that it could truly be of huge value to you. Maybe you would feel more comfortable if Anarchy was there to support you ?

I also highly recommend trying to keep up some physical activity, on a regular basis. I know you said you are dealing with chronic pain, and trust me I know exactly where you are coming from, it can be extremely rough to motivate yourself to do anything when your chewing 5 oxy's a day to function. But overall I am far happier now dealing with my pain in a more natural way and having a more balanced lifestyle. I won't say it is the magical cure all for depression, but it certainly has been shown to help a huge majority of people.

Our brains have huge self defensive mechanisms, our fight or flight responses are amazing, but can also be torture for us when we get stuck in loops of self doubt. We instinctively start to become afraid of everything to the point we are crippled and unable to do simple tasks as even pick up the phone and call our closest of friends or even family. Which makes us feel trapped, and hopeless.

Anyway, sorry for the ramblings, this is of course just my opinion, I truly do hope the best for you, , more important then who is right or wrong on these issues, all of our well beings is the ultimate goal!

 

[3rdeyeopen]

I didn't mean any offense if you were regarding my post to fibromyalgia, I was stating most of the medical community does not believe it to be an actual disease, rather a mental disorder. On the same note I should have said I believe western medicine strongly under estimates the power of mental disorders. I personally believe that depression can and does lead to physical symptoms. And that likely fibromyalgia is some sort of neurological issue rather then a bodily issue, which doesn't make it less real, just different. One really fascinating read on the subject of the power of our brains is Phantom's In The Brain by Ramachandran, its slightly older but a fairly easy read without taking several years of medical courses.

I've been on anti-depressents before, and you are right, coming off is horrific! I do urge you to see someone, the fact you are uncomfortable talking about it only gives me more reason to believe that it could truly be of huge value to you. Maybe you would feel more comfortable if Anarchy was there to support you ?

I also highly recommend trying to keep up some physical activity, on a regular basis. I know you said you are dealing with chronic pain, and trust me I know exactly where you are coming from, it can be extremely rough to motivate yourself to do anything when your chewing 5 oxy's a day to function. But overall I am far happier now dealing with my pain in a more natural way and having a more balanced lifestyle. I won't say it is the magical cure all for depression, but it certainly has been shown to help a huge majority of people.

Our brains have huge self defensive mechanisms, our fight or flight responses are amazing, but can also be torture for us when we get stuck in loops of self doubt. We instinctively start to become afraid of everything to the point we are crippled and unable to do simple tasks as even pick up the phone and call our closest of friends or even family. Which makes us feel trapped, and hopeless.

Anyway, sorry for the ramblings, this is of course just my opinion, I truly do hope the best for you, , more important then who is right or wrong on these issues, all of our well beings is the ultimate goal!

Thank you so much for your reply. I have to admit I did take offense, but the reason being is that I have been told "it's not real it's all in your head" far too many times since my diagnosis. I completely misunderstood your meaning and for that I apologize. I do agree that it could be entirely neurological and that does make sense to me. I guess I really just wish there was a definitive answer.

Thank you also for the advice. I am in my mid thirties and I definitely need to make changes in my lifestyle (eating and exercise). And you are completely right, talking is probably going to be the most beneficial factor for me. I really need to just do it! Sounds like you understand that one. Unfortunately any physical activity requires some pain meds.

Again, thank you

 

[polytrip]

Well for me the argument isn't just that the doctors don't do more tests on the patient to see if certain antidepressants should be prescribed, its that te medicines were developed under the assumption rather than hard scientific evidence that this is what will cure depression. I would like to see a statistic if there is such a thing as to how many people are actually cured and can stop taking them as opposed to are still on them due to ongoing depression.

Statistics have shown that antidepressants do work better than placebo, but not much better. For people who´re only suffering a mild form of depression, they don´t do better than placebo. The more severe a depressive disorder is, the better they do compared to a placebo.

The statistic´s improve drastically when antidepressants are combined with therapy. Therapy combined with medication is the most effective way of combatting severe depressions, if you don´t want to resort to even more drastic measures like electroshocks.

Not all antidepressants trigger the same pharmacolological mechanisms. Some tend to restore serotonin levels, while others affect levels of dopamine or noradrenaline or combinations of these neurotransmitters.

Of some antidepressants, it isn´t even clear what exactlly it is they do. They have been develloped for another purpose and during trials it showed that they cured depressive disorders.

The severity of side-effects also varies hugely in each individual as well as with each antidepressant. St johns worth is a very mild antidepressant, but risky for people with thrombosis. Passionflower is also very mild. The mild ones are often less effective unfortunenately, for very severe depressions.

 

[christian]

What if the MAJORITY of depression is caused by a damaged "ego", rather than a malfunction of the brain?. Thus would "removing the ego" be why success is reported with mind altering drugs, of which actually include anti depressants (which are their "legal high equivalents") ??

This does not of course involve depression caused by a physical ill.

 

[benzyme]

tricyclics, SSRI's, and SNRI's don't remove anyone's sense of self.
nice try, but not every aspect of the human condition can be attributed to "ego" or "spirituality".

 

[polytrip]

I wonder what people think of the fact that according to the W.H.O., an ever increasing number of people, both in devellopping countries as well as in industrialised nations, is suffering from depressive disorders, (as i said before, my theory is that it is related to the fact that more people live in city´s these days then ever before).

It is a realy concerning trend.

 

[christian]

Polytrip, maybe it's something to do with us feeling completely diminished??

What do i mean by this?, well, we are told by society, media, parents, etc, that we are our name, body, job, country and there's nothing much more to life than that basic stuff.

Never are we told that even if we were Astronaughts or Michael Angelo's we would still be a sorry excuse for the immenceness and beauty that we are, for we are truly divinity formed into a human being and SO MUCH MORE than what we are told or led to believe we are by the masses, (of which the majority are deluded by mass brainwashing and analysis paralysis.)

 

[a1pha]

Polytrip, maybe it's something to do with us feeling completely diminished??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_major_depressive_disorder

THere are some important people on that list who probably had no problems with feelings of diminishment. I think you are over-simplifying things, Christian. Depression is not as simple as a 'broke ego' or being diminished.

 

[christian]

Polytrip, maybe it's something to do with us feeling completely diminished??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_major_depressive_disorder

THere are some important people on that list who probably had no problems with feelings of diminishment. I think you are over-simplifying things, Christian. Depression is not as simple as a 'broke ego' or being diminished.

You're probably right, as is Benzyme.

And yes, i am oversimplifying it. I was just trying to look at the bigger picture rather than the mini fractals of problems that fluctuate off it.

Then again i think if only depressed people were allowed the opportunity to be treated with the psychadelic experience that they would see the light first hand. Who knows, maybe that in a controlled setting is all that is needed instead of years of suffering??

Future research will tell.

 

[anrchy]

of course some people with depression are happy to be reassured that its a chemical imbalance in their brain that causes their problems!

They are happy to know that they cant do anything against that.

That statement is a contradiction lol

If that were true then being depressed would cancel itself out haha.

unfortunately its the opposite. They are UNHAPPY because they cant doing anything about it, because you feel helpless. You feel like there is no hope to feel better. Nothing works.

such a depressing topic depression is. heh

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

I wonder what people think of the fact that according to the W.H.O., an ever increasing number of people, both in devellopping countries as well as in industrialised nations, is suffering from depressive disorders, (as i said before, my theory is that it is related to the fact that more people live in city´s these days then ever before).

It is a realy concerning trend.

I think city´s are relatively speaking, lonely places. people move to the city to escape the boredom of their village, drawn like moths by the big city lights. They leave their old environment, their family and friends to enter a new exciting world of shiny rolexes and ferrari´s, only to find themselves working hard in a concrete desert where nobody knows them.

I forgot to mention I really enjoyed that ^

Very creative, and vividly picturesque :thumb_up: