-
Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).
Research done by (or for) the DMT-Nexus community
I've been out of the loop on these EA techs for quite a while, although I recently read about the citrate honey methods. I don't have any EA and I do something that is quite controversial to convert acetates to freebase: only use heat.
I am very bad at chemistry, so I can't claim at all that anything I am saying is true or recommended, but I can state the following facts:
1. an aqueous solution of DMT in vinegar (the tincture) when heated and vaporized on a flat surface until it no longer smells of vinegar then a little bit longer changes into a goo that is nearly insoluble in water, but quite soluble in 70% and 95% ethanol.
2. the same tincture, if just barely vaporized until a less viscous lighter colored goo results will easily be dissolved in water, but is nearly insoluble in 70% and 95% ethanol.
3. the same tincture, if let to evaporate at room temperature for a up to about 10 hours will remain water soluble , but if it is let to evaporate for around 24 hours becomes insoluble in water.
3. All of the DMT-goos can be easily vaporized into smoke using a steel scrubber and presumably other methods, although due to likely vinegar residue the water soluble goo is not recommended to be bioassayed. I did it once and it was effective but vinegar-y.
4. The non-water-soluble DMT-goo can be combined with a solution of citric acid and water at 0:35:1 ratio citric acid to DMT and it results in a honey-like substance, very different in consistency to the flakey crystals from evaporating the citric acid solution, the dark non-water-soluble DMT goo, or the lighter water-soluble DMT goo. The resultant honey-like DMT substance can be vaped effectively along with PG/VG to produce DMT-effects without resulting in numb lips like non-water-soluble DMT goo in PG/VG
While I can't say any of these are true with any confidence, my hypothesis is:
-DMT-acetate is a very unstable molecule that can be changed into DMT-freebase via short periods of heat over 100C or long periods of ambient room temperature environments as long as there is adequate surface area to allow the process to happen. This process results in no noticeable loss of DMT, unlike typical acid-base conversions.
Also, there have been 2 unfortunate results with the lung discomfort issue. First is that plain freebase DMT through a small water bong aggravated my lungs noticeably. Also on a different day I tried DMT in commercial 50/50 PG/VG which I previously used for several months without issue and it resulted in a tight chest for over 5 hours. I figure that my lung might have some damage from my first few attempts with my sub-ohm vape. I'll have to really take my time to see when (or if
) it is possible to vape DMT again.
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
So the crash test happened this week-end, I was finally able to have my friend with sensitive lungs test the DMT citrate e-juice. And you know what ? It worked like a charm ! He had absolutely no cough, the e-cig aerosol was ways smoother for him than the freebase juices with higher PG amount. Definitely advisable. I will continue to experiment further with this method.
Awesome to hear, and thank you for posting this feedback!
Kind regards,
The Traveler
So trying this now How long does it actually take for the citric acid to dissolve? After about 5-10 min or so the acid seems to still be stuck at the bottom and PH strip showed 9. I'm using 70/30 PG/VG.
First dissolved the PG/VG and spice, dissolved wuita fast. The citric acid not so much. Should i grind it to powder?
I made a bork and tilted the container in the heatbath when trying to reheat the water, so gotta rebase and pull that I guess.
But trying again now with half gram spice 1 gram PG/VG, 125mg acid. If it doesnt dissolve ill add more PG/VG. My citric acid is showing CAS 77-92-9
I grinded up the acid in a pestel/mortar
How long does it actually take for the citric acid to dissolve? After about 5-10 min or so the acid seems to still be stuck at the bottom and PH strip showed 9. I'm using 70/30 PG/VG.First dissolved the PG/VG and spice, dissolved wuita fast. The citric acid not so much. Should i grind it to powder?
I made a bork and tilted the container in the heatbath when trying to reheat the water, so gotta rebase and pull that I guess.
But trying again now with half gram spice 1 gram PG/VG, 125mg acid. If it doesnt dissolve ill add more PG/VG. My citric acid is showing CAS 77-92-9
I grinded up the acid in a pestel/mortar
Attachments
Hmm, I will leave it in the heat bath on low heat for now. But seems like i have bunk acid or its not dissolving for some reason. The strip still indicate PH 9 as well
Edit: It did dissolve, still show around PH 9. But tested the acid in water and definitely acidified the water.
I used:
1.2 g 70/30 PG/VG
500mg DMT
125mg Citric Acid
I guess there's only one way to test....
Edit: It did dissolve, still show around PH 9. But tested the acid in water and definitely acidified the water.
I used:
1.2 g 70/30 PG/VG
500mg DMT
125mg Citric Acid
I guess there's only one way to test....
Last edited:
vape was very harsh, struggled to inhale and numbed lips.
But I think i know where i went wrong, should have researched better. I’ve ordered unmixed PG and VG. I will try again and first dissolve in just PG, check PH. Then add just 20% VG as last step.
I think the VG prevented the acid getting dissolved.
Also learning to set up vape gear better. Apparently I'm using the worst possible coil prone to burning (zeus 0.4)
I guess ill dust of the VG while waiting for deliveries
But I think i know where i went wrong, should have researched better. I’ve ordered unmixed PG and VG. I will try again and first dissolve in just PG, check PH. Then add just 20% VG as last step.
I think the VG prevented the acid getting dissolved.
Also learning to set up vape gear better. Apparently I'm using the worst possible coil prone to burning (zeus 0.4)
I guess ill dust of the VG while waiting for deliveries
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
Hello @spyfish ! As I reported success with this method, I'm quite sad it didn't work as expected for you. Here is what seems to differ from what I did :
350mg citric acid/1g spice vs 250mg citric acid/1g spice
3,4ml 30PG/70VG vs 2,4g 70PG/30VG
Also :
This might be a problem too. I've used a Geekvape Z-Max and it seems that coils from this brand, regardless of the model, are not very reliable. I've burnt lot of coils (and wasted lot of spice) for no reasons with it, sometimes it happened even with brand new coils. Geekvape clearomisers are also prone to leak down the bottom cap, regardless of PG/VG ratio. These concerns have been reported by many Geekvape clearomisers users. That's why after successive fails I went back to my usual clearomiser, the 2ml(/4ml) Vaporesso Veco tank with 0.3ohms SS316 coils, which I have used for years with spice and which has never failed me. The Veco is ways more reliable and also much more convenient (easier to empty completely with minimum losses). Versatile, it works fine with high PG as well as high VG juices without any leak. Not to mention that availability of SS316 coils also allows to use it with TC mode.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm definitely abandoning Geekvape clearomisers to vape spice.
Whats was your setting with the 0.4 coil ?
350mg citric acid/1g spice vs 250mg citric acid/1g spice
3,4ml 30PG/70VG vs 2,4g 70PG/30VG
Also :
This might be a problem too. I've used a Geekvape Z-Max and it seems that coils from this brand, regardless of the model, are not very reliable. I've burnt lot of coils (and wasted lot of spice) for no reasons with it, sometimes it happened even with brand new coils. Geekvape clearomisers are also prone to leak down the bottom cap, regardless of PG/VG ratio. These concerns have been reported by many Geekvape clearomisers users. That's why after successive fails I went back to my usual clearomiser, the 2ml(/4ml) Vaporesso Veco tank with 0.3ohms SS316 coils, which I have used for years with spice and which has never failed me. The Veco is ways more reliable and also much more convenient (easier to empty completely with minimum losses). Versatile, it works fine with high PG as well as high VG juices without any leak. Not to mention that availability of SS316 coils also allows to use it with TC mode.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm definitely abandoning Geekvape clearomisers to vape spice.
Whats was your setting with the 0.4 coil ?
Thanks @The Sofa Traveler
I found your preview post in here. I may give that a go. I was also looking at Minty Loves instructions for the geekvape (but without citric acid)
He suggests this to fill the Geekcape Z with straight glass. (Mine only has bubble argh, 5ml tank) But I ordered straight glas and the 0.15 coils he suggests.
But he actually dissolves the spice in PG first at room temp, then filter and,. and add VG at the end. I'm considering to also dissolve first on PG, and measure the PH. In my case I'm fairly sure I was still vaping freebase. Certainly felt like it.
Smaller tank definitely interests me. Expensive to experiment with the big tanks I found the clearomizer, but I'm struggling to find the coils you mention. Closest i found was 0.5. I may have to call vape shops around. Unfortunately they banned online sale here, but Ive been able to order some stuff from neighboring countries. The ss316 0.3 however I cant find. Could you tell me exactly which coil? I see its also comes in "standard" and ceramic.
My mod-box is the Geekvape S100, not sure if it has temp control.
Is this the correct clearomizer? (already ordered it). What settings do you use?
Luckily I have quite a bit of spice now, my current extraction is up to 4g on 250h bark, and im starting a second 250g extraction next week.
I found your preview post in here. I may give that a go. I was also looking at Minty Loves instructions for the geekvape (but without citric acid)
He suggests this to fill the Geekcape Z with straight glass. (Mine only has bubble argh, 5ml tank) But I ordered straight glas and the 0.15 coils he suggests.
But he actually dissolves the spice in PG first at room temp, then filter and,. and add VG at the end. I'm considering to also dissolve first on PG, and measure the PH. In my case I'm fairly sure I was still vaping freebase. Certainly felt like it.
Smaller tank definitely interests me. Expensive to experiment with the big tanks
I found the clearomizer, but I'm struggling to find the coils you mention. Closest i found was 0.5. I may have to call vape shops around. Unfortunately they banned online sale here, but Ive been able to order some stuff from neighboring countries. The ss316 0.3 however I cant find. Could you tell me exactly which coil? I see its also comes in "standard" and ceramic.My mod-box is the Geekvape S100, not sure if it has temp control.
Is this the correct clearomizer? (already ordered it). What settings do you use?
Oh I did so many things wrong. Too little juice for the big 5ml tank, not pre-soaking the coil etc. Started at 30w, but also tested 50w as its rated for 50-70. Quite sure I messed up allot. I think both the juice failed and i burned. This is my first setup, so learning the hard way. Cost me half gram is complete waste. The other gram i tilted in the heatbath i should be able to recover haha.
Luckily I have quite a bit of spice now, my current extraction is up to 4g on 250h bark, and im starting a second 250g extraction next week.
Last edited:
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
Smaller tank definitely interests me. Expensive to experiment with the big tanks
Yes, IMO, 2ml is the most convenient tank size. To me it's a prerequisite, that's why I also tried the Geekvape Z-Max, because in addition to the 4ml glass it is also provided with a 2ml straight glass (in France at least). Bigger than 2ml tanks are not convenient when you only have small juice amounts to use. The Z-Max not being reliable, I think the Veco remains the best choice in terms of reliability and convenience for this purpose (cf. easy to empty and swap coil). There is even a 4ml version (which I also have, for nicotine vape) in case you're going for a long week-end and need higher capacity. Here is the 0.3 ohms SS316 coil. SS316 is not always mentioned on websites, but if you find a Veco EUC coil at 0.3ohms with 35-40w recommended power, it's the one you're looking for. It's quite easy to find in France but I don't know if it's the case in your country though. Maybe try searching with the terms "veco+euc+coil", usually websites or retailers offer several variants, including the 0.3ohms SS316.
Yes it is
For the moment, with the citrate juice and the 0.3ohms SS316 coil I didn't go over 24 watts but currently I feel comfortable at 22 watts. Note that power needs may slightly vary according to your PG/VG ratio (VG has a higher boiling point than PG). High VG juice might need a little more power than high PG juice. Best is to start low, like 18w, and increase gradually until you find the sweet spot.Peace.
Yes, IMO, 2ml is the most convenient tank size. To me it's a prerequisite, that's why I also tried the Geekvape Z-Max, because in addition to the 4ml glass it is also provided with a 2ml straight glass (in France at least). Bigger than 2ml tanks are not convenient when you only have small juice amounts to use. The Z-Max not being reliable, I think the Veco remains the best choice in terms of reliability and convenience for this purpose (cf. easy to empty and swap coil). There is even a 4ml version (which I also have, for nicotine vape) in case you're going for a long week-end and need higher capacity. Here is the 0.3 ohms SS316 coil. SS316 is not always mentioned on websites, but if you find a Veco EUC coil at 0.3ohms with 35-40w recommended power, it's the one you're looking for. It's quite easy to find in France but I don't know if it's the case in your country though. Maybe try searching with the terms "veco+euc+coil", usually websites or retailers offer several variants, including the 0.3ohms SS316.
Yes it is
Peace.
Fantastic, found it all now. Ive indeed been ordering my vape stuff from france as here they banned online sale.
I also have a zeus x RTA im tempted to set up with single coil.
Could you tell me more exactly how you went about mixing the juice? Something didn’t go right with my attempt. Seemed like the acid didn’t dissolve and didn’t neutralize the dmt.
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
What I did with the citrate juice doesn't differ much from what I usually do with freebase juices. I first mix the PG/VG base with the DMT in a small 10ml glass jar, slightly heat it in the oven at 50C/60C, strongly shake it, heat it again, shake it again, and so until spice is prefectly dissolved. Then I add the citric acid, heat, shake, heat, shake, until perfectly dissolved. I noticed the citric acid took more time to dissolve than the DMT so I heated/shaked longer than usual. One of the main differences with the citrate juice is that I made a more than usual diluted juice : I used 3,4ml PG/VG base per DMT gram instead of the 2 to 3ml PG/VG base I used to use with freebase juices. Other difference was the PG/VG ratio. I used to use 50 to 100% PG with freebase juices while I use 70%VG(30%PG) with the citrate juice. Despite the high VG amount, the juice never precipitated or recrystallized. I wonder if the citrate would not be more soluble in VG than the freebase.
I don't really know what messed up your juice. Different PG/VG base quality ? Different citric acid quality ? I don't know. First try to heat/shake longer your mix. If citric acid still doesn't dissolve properly, maybe try to make the juice more diluted/less concentrated, with ratio from the like of 1g DMT/3ml PG/VG base. Maybe also try higher VG in your PG/VG ratio. As a last resort, try to apply the exactly same recipe I did.
General advice for your next tries : only change one parameter at a time if you want to isolate more easily what is causing the problem.
As far as I'm concerned, my next try will be a little more concentrated juice, with 3ml instead of 3,4ml PG/VG base but still with 30%PG/70%VG ratio. My long time goal is to make the juices more and more concentrated, without changing the PG/VG ratio, to see how far I can go in terms of juice concentration/strength with such high VG amount. I want to keep high VG because in addition to the freebase-> citrate conversion, it also helps make the juice smoother since PG is known being felt more aggressive in the throat/lungs. I'll keep the community aware of my latest experiments.
Peace.
@spyfish My experiments (posted on the last page) are that citric acid's solubility in VG and PG increases very rapidly only after being heated over 100C. I didn't do the tests with DMT in the PG and /or VG yet, but if you have undissolved citric acid I'd recommend finding a safe way to heat it beyond the boiling point of water.
Last edited:
Thanks
I read your post about heating the solution a bit more thorough again. I may try first dissolving the acid in PG testing as you did whileI wait for coils etc. I
A couple basic questions is anyone could enlighten me?
- I assume mixing in the DMT after the acid should be fine for converting the DMT to salt?
- If changing the dilution to for example
1:4 (DMT:liquid), the citric acid ratio should stay at 0.3 of DMT? Or is it advisable to increase acid amount with more PG/VG?
Last edited:
There's a somewhat hidden variable in all this in that VG and PG are both hygroscopic so you'll be dealing with an unknown water content for the most part. This may go some way towards explaining anomalous results between different experimenters. Maybe we need to record the ambient temperature and humidity, as well as looking into (hopefully, simple) ways of determining the moisture content of VG/PG.
Anyone tried a acetone conversion to DMT-citrate first? similar to FASA. Extra step, but. Is that even doable? Will it turn into a goo/honey?
I could sacrifice a g and test if someone confirm it’s viable?
My next step is to try dissolve citric acid first in new PG on the way before adding completely white crystals
I could sacrifice a g and test if someone confirm it’s viable?
My next step is to try dissolve citric acid first in new PG on the way before adding completely white crystals
CASA is a thing, yes. A dig in the forum search with this acronym should pull up a few discussions with the occasional nugget of insight.
someoldman
Rising Star
Has anyone tried using an aqueous solution of DMT citrate with a nebulizer? Is the water solubility high enough to make that work?
Nachooo1
Esteemed member
Have been thinking the same, there was some ecig devices time ago based in ultrasonics instead of coils. For whatever reason they seem not to be used nowadays.
Hi, having read this thread a lot, and currently experimenting, here some anectdotal findings and infos on my side.
suggestion: When experimenting, I suggest people to use rebuildable "dripper" atomizers: those ones have usually a lower-capacity tank, and the coil is easily accessible from the top. It enables you to manually soak the cotton wick with the liquid each time you use it (saving you from filling a tank, facing leaks, losing juice, etc.)
context:
I'm vaping nicotine since ~5-10 years and i'm pretty used to "rebuildable" atomizers
I'm quite interested with microdosing/therapeuthic/low-doses uses of DMT (after several years of psilocybin/LSD microdosing). Due to the potential higher frequency of use, I'm a bit attentive about health issues.
- I did my first successful extractions last week. Classic STB NaOH + naphta + freeze precipitation tek. No water wash (I'll do this on the next). My first 2 pulls gave me 1.27g of white, pale yellow material (the first pull was almost full white).
- I then made my own liquide to test: ~400mg DMT freebase (386 to be precise), diluted in 10mL of PG/VG (50%-50%). It's quite low, I know, it was intentional, as I'm sensitive to psychedelics (tryptamines, lysergamides, weed). I don't intent to go for the breakthrought for now.
- I used a 1 Ohm resistance, at 8-10W, with a decent box. The atomizer was a Brunehilde MTL (but I set a quite open airflow, to be able to do a semi-"direct to lung" vaping)
- first bioassays (self-test ) were very successful. I even managed to have OEV when pushed a bit. Wow, that stuff is strong!
- very nice aftereffects, slightly different from my experience with psilocybin/LSD microdosing. I found them **very** promising for my topic of interest.
But:
I found the vapor very very harsh and hurting for the lungs and the throath. I felt a specific hit point at the back of the throath just after consuming and overall chest-lung thighness / slight pain/discomfort lasting to the next day.
I'm experienced with nicotine vaping, and I'm quite careful with the technical setup (no overheating, cotton wick inspection). For what I read here, it seems be caused by the very high pH of the vaping liquid made from DMT freebase, that literally harm the lungs.
Yesterday, I even tried adding some citric acid (99.9% purity) to the proportion suggested here (1:0.3 DMT:Citric Acid), correctly dissolved but felt no relly significant improvements (specific pain point at back to throath, chest discomfort after).
I may (very unfortunately) stop my experiment until my airways feels better / has healed. I'll also look into buying a proper phMeter as I'm disappointed by my attempt with citric acid addition.
Hope it adds some info to this collaborative effort and I'll look into ideas and suggestions.
suggestion: When experimenting, I suggest people to use rebuildable "dripper" atomizers: those ones have usually a lower-capacity tank, and the coil is easily accessible from the top. It enables you to manually soak the cotton wick with the liquid each time you use it (saving you from filling a tank, facing leaks, losing juice, etc.)
context:
I'm vaping nicotine since ~5-10 years and i'm pretty used to "rebuildable" atomizers
I'm quite interested with microdosing/therapeuthic/low-doses uses of DMT (after several years of psilocybin/LSD microdosing). Due to the potential higher frequency of use, I'm a bit attentive about health issues.
- I did my first successful extractions last week. Classic STB NaOH + naphta + freeze precipitation tek. No water wash (I'll do this on the next). My first 2 pulls gave me 1.27g of white, pale yellow material (the first pull was almost full white).
- I then made my own liquide to test: ~400mg DMT freebase (386 to be precise), diluted in 10mL of PG/VG (50%-50%). It's quite low, I know, it was intentional, as I'm sensitive to psychedelics (tryptamines, lysergamides, weed). I don't intent to go for the breakthrought for now.
- I used a 1 Ohm resistance, at 8-10W, with a decent box. The atomizer was a Brunehilde MTL (but I set a quite open airflow, to be able to do a semi-"direct to lung" vaping)
- first bioassays (self-test
) were very successful. I even managed to have OEV when pushed a bit. Wow, that stuff is strong! - very nice aftereffects, slightly different from my experience with psilocybin/LSD microdosing. I found them **very** promising for my topic of interest.
But:
I found the vapor very very harsh and hurting for the lungs and the throath. I felt a specific hit point at the back of the throath just after consuming and overall chest-lung thighness / slight pain/discomfort lasting to the next day.
I'm experienced with nicotine vaping, and I'm quite careful with the technical setup (no overheating, cotton wick inspection). For what I read here, it seems be caused by the very high pH of the vaping liquid made from DMT freebase, that literally harm the lungs.
Yesterday, I even tried adding some citric acid (99.9% purity) to the proportion suggested here (1:0.3 DMT:Citric Acid), correctly dissolved but felt no relly significant improvements (specific pain point at back to throath, chest discomfort after).
I may (very unfortunately) stop my experiment until my airways feels better / has healed. I'll also look into buying a proper phMeter as I'm disappointed by my attempt with citric acid addition.
Hope it adds some info to this collaborative effort and I'll look into ideas and suggestions.