Research DMT salts for e-juice

[The Sofa Traveler]

Hi Nexians, some news here. After some hits and misses, I finally found cruising speed with this way of vaping. For those looking for a reliable setup and settings, here are my current ones. All works flawlessly, without the need to change the coil every few puffs, no burnt taste (actually, almost no taste at all). Sweet and efficient.

The setup :

• Box -> Geekvape T200
• Clearomiser -> Geekvape Z-Max (2ml glass)
• Coil -> M-Series 0.14ohms single mesh

The juice and the settings :

• 1g DMT / 2ml 70PG/30VG
• 350mg citric acid
• Power/watts mode -> 24-25w

Citric acid tends to take time to dissolve but eventually dissolves completely, just be patient, heat, shake, let it settle, repeat until complete dissolution. Power settings might be adjusted according to your inhalation pace : the slower the inhalation, the lower the power should be.

Peace

 

[xa]

Why to few post on using an rebuildable drip atomizer whit these route ? Should be no clog problems, I'm right ?

 

[pantostao]

Why to few post on using an rebuildable drip atomizer whit these route ? Should be no clog problems, I'm right ?

I think you're right, but using a drip atomizer also has its downsides. (Like having to re-up periodically).

 

[xa]

I think you're right, but using a drip atomizer also has its downsides. (Like having to re-up periodically).

It's very easy to rebuild, i never try with dmt or anything psychoactive, but it's easy to reload and change cotton etc etc...i think about that because i have an extract that it's more orange goo abd would lije to try to convert in citric salt, with pg and try to drip it....but afraid to waste everything.

 

[Sicho Naut]

I also tried this and am happy to report good results. Smooth vapor with little taste. I can tell it still doesn't do my lungs any favor (even PG on its own gives me issues), but it feels way better than smoking enhanced leaf through a bong or vaping DMT with an Arizer Extreme Q. (Can't compare to freebase d-juice; knowing my sensitive lungs I went straight for the citric.)

My set-up: Yocan Uni Pro with CCell TH210 knock-off carts (resistance = 1.5 ohm). 2.8V seems to work well, but I'll be experimenting with lower. 3.0V seemed to be a bit too much.
Also, I blended my citric acid granules to a fine powder before adding it to the PG, this seemed to speed along the dissolving process.

 

[Loveall]

I have dropped the citric to 200mg per 1g of DMT.

The juice is alkaline but very slightly so. Feels light and nice.

At some point it becomes personal preference.

 

[bwel1t]

I just created a vape cart with a 1:1 DMT (freebase) - PG ratio. I've tried a couple of hits, it's not terrible on the lungs, but I still found this thread and using DMT citrate compelling. However, I was thinking going up in ratio (2:1) rather than down, do you guys get a 3 hit breakthrough gear using the 1:0.3:2 ratio? (Or 1:0.2:2 as mentioned by @Loveall above)

Have anyone tried what the max ratio of DMT freebase are when making DMT citrate carts?

 

[Icon]

1) Power and device: Lower power is smoother.

Could the reason for low power feeling smoother be that you're literally not feeling (most of) it?

You've likely already seen this study, if not I think you'd appreciate it:

Aerosol droplet-size distribution and airborne nicotine portioning in particle and gas phases emitted by electronic cigarettes - Scientific Reports

The reliable characterization of particle size distribution and nicotine delivery emitted by electronic cigarettes (ECs) is a critical issue in their design. Indeed, a better understanding of how nicotine is delivered as an aerosol with an appropriate aerodynamic size is a necessary step toward...

www.nature.com

Both the vaporization process and the physical and chemical properties of the produced aerosol are very similar at 15 W and 25 W using the low-power atomizer technology (MMAD of nicotine and e-liquid ranging from 1.06 to 1.19 µm, airborne nicotine concentration of approximately 11 mg/mL). However, for the 50-W condition using the high-power atomizer technology, an important change in the vaporization process is noticed with a rise of MMAD by a twofold factor and an increase of airborne nicotine concentration by a 1.5-fold factor (MMAD of nicotine and e-liquid ranging from 2.33 to 2.46 µm, airborne nicotine concentration of approximately 17 mg/mL). We can suppose that the role of coagulation on the growth of particle size is certainly critical. The growth rate can be extremely fast for particles at very high concentrations (i.e. before the aerosol passed through the tubing to the DLPI). This would contribute to explain a possible change of size of particles that exited the EC mouthpiece.

Lower power vapes produced finer particles, averaging 1 micron in this study. They seem to be suggesting that the larger particles measured coming from the higher power atomizer could be related to the accelerated growth of particles due to the increased density of particles being atomized at higher power.

For the 15-W and 25-W conditions using the low-power atomizer technology, we found that approximately 60% of the total nicotine mass emitted by the EC was in the liquid droplet particle phase, whereas 40% of the total nicotine mass emitted by EC was in the gas phase in equilibrium with the airborne droplets.

So at low power, 40% of the nicotine was actually vaporized and 60% aerosolized as particles averaging 1 micron.

I don't think it was the same study, but I read somewhere that particles smaller than 2 micron, and indeed most of the actual vapors, are likely to be exhaled before they can condense and sediment in the lungs, due to brownian motion prohibiting smaller particles from coalescing.

I have no idea how well this relates to the disposable pen vapes, but potentially more than half the medication being atomized at low power is being exhaled.

---

Additionally, the 1 micron droplets produced at lower power had less nicotine concentration, about 65% of the juice concentration. The larger droplets produced at higher power had a nicotine concentration that was 95% of the e-liquid's concentration.

It could be that the lower power atomizer was vaporizing the juice faster than nicotine, or something more complicated. Particles larger than 4 micron had a lower nicotine concentration too. The aerosol only accurately represented the E-liquid within 2-4 micron.

I mention that because I've seen several reddit posts of people posting their carts, and the DMT has crashed out. Could be related to the e-liquid ratio drifting as the juice aerosols unevenly.

Important: this information is for personal use only. DO NOT use this information to make a product for profit. That would go against all the good intentions and good will of the collaborative harm reduction efforts in our community. Finally, DMT salt juices where researched and developed by our community in an open source environment and NOT patentable.

Are you aware that there is a patent out there relating to DMT salts? I found this a couple months ago, published in 2023. Maybe they ripped off the Nexus research?

Science paper - N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) Crystalline Products And Methods Of Making The Same

It's a patent. It's written in a way that would be a pain to copy / paste over some of the content, but it seems like a very detailed description of various DMT salts. Haven't read through it yet.

forum.dmt-nexus.me

As well as a flood of vape products on the market apparently. It's a shame.

 

[Ruffles]

I read somewhere that particles smaller than 2 micron, and indeed most of the actual vapors, are likely to be exhaled before they can condense and sediment in the lungs, due to brownian motion prohibiting smaller particles from coalescing.

That makes a lot of sense. With the fear of burning the magic I always keep it at low settings and always felt that a lot of it stays in the wick plus what goes in is mostly exhaled, therefore the lighter effects. Gotta make those clouds heavier for them to touch the lung surface.

 

[gimatt]

Thank you for your experiments and sharing this fascinating info! What do you think of melting dmt freebase & citric acid (at your advised ratios) together without PG at all? Then letting it re-solidify to vaporize it with a temperature controlled dab-rig.

 

[Ruffles]

If you have freebase, why turn it to citric to vaporize in the dab-rig? Just sprinkle magic on the dab and as it warms up it should melt and then vaporize.

 

[lazloz]

Could the reason for low power feeling smoother be that you're literally not feeling (most of) it?

You've likely already seen this study, if not I think you'd appreciate it:

Aerosol droplet-size distribution and airborne nicotine portioning in particle and gas phases emitted by electronic cigarettes - Scientific Reports

The reliable characterization of particle size distribution and nicotine delivery emitted by electronic cigarettes (ECs) is a critical issue in their design. Indeed, a better understanding of how nicotine is delivered as an aerosol with an appropriate aerodynamic size is a necessary step toward...

www.nature.com

Lower power vapes produced finer particles, averaging 1 micron in this study. They seem to be suggesting that the larger particles measured coming from the higher power atomizer could be related to the accelerated growth of particles due to the increased density of particles being atomized at higher power.


So at low power, 40% of the nicotine was actually vaporized and 60% aerosolized as particles averaging 1 micron.

I don't think it was the same study, but I read somewhere that particles smaller than 2 micron, and indeed most of the actual vapors, are likely to be exhaled before they can condense and sediment in the lungs, due to brownian motion prohibiting smaller particles from coalescing.

I have no idea how well this relates to the disposable pen vapes, but potentially more than half the medication being atomized at low power is being exhaled.

---

Additionally, the 1 micron droplets produced at lower power had less nicotine concentration, about 65% of the juice concentration. The larger droplets produced at higher power had a nicotine concentration that was 95% of the e-liquid's concentration.

It could be that the lower power atomizer was vaporizing the juice faster than nicotine, or something more complicated. Particles larger than 4 micron had a lower nicotine concentration too. The aerosol only accurately represented the E-liquid within 2-4 micron.

I mention that because I've seen several reddit posts of people posting their carts, and the DMT has crashed out. Could be related to the e-liquid ratio drifting as the juice aerosols unevenly.


Are you aware that there is a patent out there relating to DMT salts? I found this a couple months ago, published in 2023. Maybe they ripped off the Nexus research?

Science paper - N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) Crystalline Products And Methods Of Making The Same

It's a patent. It's written in a way that would be a pain to copy / paste over some of the content, but it seems like a very detailed description of various DMT salts. Haven't read through it yet.

forum.dmt-nexus.me

As well as a flood of vape products on the market apparently. It's a shame.

I think you are definitely onto something here. Sadly enough, it's difficult to compare experiences since we are all using different e-cigs, different starting material and different e-liquid recipes. Nonetheless, I too find that the citrate is somewhat weaker, I went with it because I cannot stand the taste of freebase to the point that it ruins my trip, but I'm using a higher than normal amount of citrate. Either it is not areosolized properly or it's pharmacokinetics is kind of bogus.
The first attempt at making e-liquid I went with freebase as obtained by @endlessness vinegar/carbonate/ethanol tek, mixed 1:1 with PG, and despite the fact that the flavour was unbearable (a lot of tannins there, not advised), I broke through with about 45mg, measured by weighing the cart before and after and multiplying by the % of spice in the liquid (in this case 50% but probably less due to tannins contamination).
Next attempt was with the acetate goo from a more conventional tek, mixed with PG with 40% final spice concentration, again it took around 40mg and again the taste was unbearable, probably worse even.
My current liquid is with citrate, specifically diDMT-citrate, mixed 1:1 with PG for a final concentration of 30% freebase equivalent. The taste is more than OK, but I need 70mg to break through. I didn't change the settings of my e-cig, that are 0.4 ohm and 25watts, should I increase the wattage to 30W (cannot go higher)? Or is it that it's the salt itself that doesn't absorb well? Nicotine studies suggest the opposite but we know that spice is a different thing altogether.

 

[lazloz]

Hey @Icon, yesterday I did some experiments. Since I do not have a pod with resistance lower than 0.4 ohm or an e-cig capable of delivering more than 30 watts, I thought of doing the opposite, going up to 0.8 ohm and down to 18 watts, just to see where it would take me.
You can imagine my surprise when I broke through with 3 short-ish puffs that I later discovered corresponding to 12mg of spice :-0
The smell is completely different too, it would smell of partly burnt spice no matter what, even if the vapor was actually good, the drip tip always smelled of burnt, now it smells of the typical floral scent. IDK really, it puzzles me that it goes in the opposite direction I thought it would go, but I'm happy to break through on a minimal amount of spice.

 

[lazloz]

Some updates that I hope would be useful for the D-juice community. Some of it comes from direct experiments and some by cross-referencing various anedoctal data and reports.
What I found is that most users, myself included, tend to focus a lot on the perfect D-juice recipe but partially or totally neglect the actual vape they're going to use. The internet is filled with nonsense like less than 1:1 ratio is never going to work for breakthrough or you need at least 50W or you need temperature control set to 260C and so on. Therefore, my intent is to organize some infos in the most streamlined way possible. Let's start.

1) cart system (like CCell): vape pens with a 510 connector for usually small (1mL) carts that have a CERAMIC wicking element and a resistance between 1.3 and 1.6 ohm. These carts are intended for mouth to lung puffs (like a real cigarette) but for D-juice you need to go direct to lung, caveat the restricted air flow (partially unscrew the cart from the pen).

These carts allow a smaller amount of vapor to be produced and thus need a more concentrated juice. You cannot take too long/slow puffs or you risk burning the spice. REMEMBER: even if you're using freebase and not citrate, it is not supposed to taste/smell burnt, it might be caustic and unpleasant but not burnt!

Suggested ratios: from 1:0.5 D: PG to 1:2 D: PG. If you want citrate add between 0.2 and 0.3. NO VG because it needs to stay runny enough to wick the ceramic element.

These and the following ratios are BY WEIGHT, use a scale and make peace with the fact that the more VG you use the greater the difference between your w/w and w/v ratios.

Personally I don't recommend this method, difficult to dose and too restricted air flow.

2) Sub-ohm coils in refillable pods.
The theory is more or less the same for pods and tanks (non RTA/RTA/RDA) and follows the decrease in resistance of the coils. With bigger tanks for box mods, one can increase the VG% a little because wicking is less of an issue than in pods.

The most famous product line in this category is the wenax by geekvape. I actually love and tried 3 different Q pods in 0.8/0.6/0.4 ohm.

Suggested ratios: instead of pure PG, I like to have 30-40% VG in the mix, it smoothes out the vapour and it seems to positively affect absorption.

For 0.8 ohm (my favourite on 14W): 1:0.3:1:0.5 D:citric: PG:VG around 35% w/w and 40% w/v

For 0.6 ohm (19-29W):
1:0.3:1.1:0.8 D:citric: PG:VG around 30% w/w and 35% w/v

For 0.4 ohm (my least recommended, keep the W way low):
1:0.3:1.5:1 D:citric: PG:VG around 25% w/w and 30% w/v

I like to add 1% of menthol crystals in my juice, that is 10mg/mL

3) sub-ohm atomizers, tank or dripping style. The theory is the same, you decrease the ratio as you go down in resistance. Last week I tried a Zeus tank from a friend with a 0.2 and a 0.15 coil and found that the juice for the 0.4 pod was tasting foul and unpleasant (despite the citric acid), power was 30W and 35W respectively. I didn't have the chance to mix and try another juice, but I would go like this:

1:0.3:1.8:1.4 D:citric: PG:VG around 20% w/w and 25% w/v.

Next step I'll take is to test the solubility of a mixture of citrate and benzoate, maybe by adding 3-6% of cannabis terpenes to the mix (myrcene, limo, pinene etc). Ideally I want to reduce the citric acid as much as possible because of its thermal instability. We shall see.

Cheers

 

[Alev-Kev]

Here is my 2 bits on this... no need to convert with citric. Just use 70/30 no nicotine e-juice. Put it in a shot glass in a pot of hot water and stir. When it's dissolved, suck it up in a plastic syringe to be injected into a cannabis distillate disposable pen. Easy to find everything online or at your smoke shop. Don't overfill and if it's a strong mix, it will turn cloudy to milky when it cools. Don't worry.. if you get it warm it will turn liquid again. These are 2 different potencies here in pic. 75% and 65% respectively. Notice the milky strong and the brown 'regular' strength.
This has been well received by all who have tried.
A-K

 

[Transform]

Here is my 2 bits on this... no need to convert with citric. Just use 70/30 no nicotine e-juice. Put it in a shot glass in a pot of hot water and stir. When it's dissolved, suck it up in a plastic syringe to be injected into a cannabis distillate disposable pen. Easy to find everything online or at your smoke shop. Don't overfill and if it's a strong mix, it will turn cloudy to milky when it cools. Don't worry.. if you get it warm it will turn liquid again. These are 2 different potencies here in pic. 75% and 65% respectively. Notice the milky strong and the brown 'regular' strength.
This has been well received by all who have tried.
A-K

Horses for courses, people have their reasons for doing things in various ways, e.g.:

Nonetheless, I too find that the citrate is somewhat weaker, I went with it because I cannot stand the taste of freebase to the point that it ruins my trip, but I'm using a higher than normal amount of citrate. Either it is not areosolized properly or it's pharmacokinetics is kind of bogus

hence the existence of this particular thread.

 

[lazloz]

Dear @Transform I'll take advantage of your quote to report back some other findings.
The paper @Icon linked bugged me to the point I purchased a box mod with a rebuildable tank atomizer with dual coils, just to test it out. Researching the topic on the net confirmed that somebody else already did the job and there's actually a whole website+YT channel+discord dedicated to the matter. Very good info, thorough research and a huge amount of data that support a similar hypothesis with spice instead of nicotine. It's less about wattage and more about the heat and quality of the vapour. Airflow plays a pivotal role and the intensity of the toking itself too.
So I tested it out with the citrate salt and I must say that after some trial and error I got rewarded with very good trips. I diluted the juice to 1:3:2 FB equivalente: PG: VG and my spice consumption fell back to reasonable, so I am inclined to think the citrate is as effective as fb after all, but I want to try the same ratio with fb and possibly with a only partially salted mix.
As a footnote, I suspect the benzoic tek might yield a product that is contaminated with excess benzoic acid, at least with the solvent I used (White Spirit). Converting 3.3g of benzoate to fb should yield around 2g but came in at a meager 1.3g. The contamination seems excessive, but while I try to replicate the data, I suggest to those using this or similar teks, to convert to FB before usage (salt fine for storage) in order to limit the risk and having better luck at guessing active doses.

 

[Pepperwood]

I don't know much about different vape tanks. I noticed reading through this thread that many of the tanks mentioned, like the z max or vecco use pre-made (cyramic?) Coils, i see people reffering to these as clearomizers. I have a dead rabbit v3 RTA for use with FB juice (per minty love recommendation). My tank seems to operate very similar to those mentioned, but using regular coils you can wrap yourself, im using kanth A1 26 x 2 + 36 wire for my coils . My question is: is there any advantage to using the clearomizers with salt juice? Or is my dead rabbit v3 more or less equivalent? It seems to me that being able to wrap your own coils is an advantage itself. Thanks for all the hard work in this thread, im grateful!

 

[lazloz]

I don't know much about different vape tanks. I noticed reading through this thread that many of the tanks mentioned, like the z max or vecco use pre-made (cyramic?) Coils, i see people reffering to these as clearomizers. I have a dead rabbit v3 RTA for use with FB juice (per minty love recommendation). My tank seems to operate very similar to those mentioned, but using regular coils you can wrap yourself, im using kanth A1 26 x 2 + 36 wire for my coils . My question is: is there any advantage to using the clearomizers with salt juice? Or is my dead rabbit v3 more or less equivalent? It seems to me that being able to wrap your own coils is an advantage itself. Thanks for all the hard work in this thread, im grateful!

Well, I was booted from Minty's discord for "advertising" citrate juice, so there's that. Nonetheless his reccomendations apply to citrate as well as to fb, I tried it myself and can tell you that the setup you have is probably the most powerful way of consuming the spice. If you're like me and many in this thread, that is you struggle with freebase juice, just try to add incremental amounts of citric acid as @Loveall suggests: he started from 350mg/g and went down to 200mg/g and I think that between these two values there's a sweet spot for everybody.
The RTA Is going to work the same as with FB, start low on the W and find your preferred toking technique. In other words follow what Minty says, it is solid advice.

 

[Pepperwood]

Thanks for that input Lazloz, im gonna try mixing up some citrate soon!