First attempt at low-dose Mimosahuasca, what went wrong?

[blig-blug]

I have no previous experience with DMT or Ayahuasca, so I'm treading lightly by starting first with low doses. I'm trying it with my girlfriend, who also has no DMT experience whatsoever. For our first experience, we aimed at a low Mimosahuasca dose with 100mg harmala HCl (obtained as an extract already) and 1.5g MHRB. These doses are per person, so the total amount of MHRB brewed was 3g.

The MHRB was not powdered but very finely shredded. I brewed it in 1L tap water with a teaspoon vinegar. As the water reduced in volume, I added an additional 0.5L with half a teaspoon vinegar. I did this for three times. Then, I added another 0.5L for the last time the water reduced in volume, strained the plant material and added an egg white. For some reason the egg white stuck to the bottom of the pot, but it was easy to get out. I filtered the brew with a t-shirt, and reduced the volume to around 200ml. I let it decant on the fridge for around half an hour to get rid of the plant sludge and then reduced the liquid without the sludge to around 100ml.

We had the harmalas, and then 30 minutes later we drank half and half of the mimosa brew. Before we drank the mimosa, we could already feel some subtle effects from the harmalas (some energy and a slightly "dreamy" headspace). About half an hour later, I started having some psychedelic effects, which culminated in slight open eye visuals where I would see faint "scenery" on the bedroom's blinders (i.e. a stripe on the blinders faintly looked like a row of mud huts). There were no CEVs whatsoever. Those effects subsided in about 20 minutes. Surprisingly, when talking to my girlfriend, she reported having had strong morphing and breathing visuals, where everything in the room was shaking and changing shapes in waves. She was surprised by it and got a little bit scared. She reported no CEVs as well. The stronger effects were over for her in about 20 minutes too, and about 15 minutes later she had no remaining effects.

Now, I suppose the reason she had a quite stronger experience than I did is probably higher sensitivity to the MAOI effects of the harmalas. It's also to be expected that such a low dose as we had would have weak effects, that was the idea in fact. However, I don't understand why the experience was so short: 20 minutes for me and about 40 minutes for my girlfriend. Is that to be expected too from a low dose? I have read threads here of people having 2g harmala (seeds) and 2g MHRB with it lasting for hours. I'm also surprised that neither of us got CEVs, I was under the impression that with ayahuasca, CEVs appear easier and before OEVs do.

My current plan is to increase my harmala dose to 125mg HCl for the next time (my girlfriend would still have 100mg) and the Mimosa dose to 2g. Does that sound like a good plan? Should I change something else in order to get a longer experience (without increasing the intensity too much)?

I'll be thankful for any comments or suggestions!

 

[Jamie01]

Up the harmala dose a little bit like you said and then have extra mimosa brewed so you can boost an extra gram or 2 or half…w/e until your where you want to be. Sometimes you’re right on the edge of it and just need that little bit extra.

Once it’s working just pay attention- and w/e is happening well that’s what ayahuasca does to you. Some people don’t even have visions.

 

[blig-blug]

Jamie, thank you for your advice. I will then up the harmalas and have some mimosa booster doses ready. One aspect that worried me about boosting was the possibility that the actual effects haven't come up yet when I boost, and I end up getting a stronger effect than planned. I have read that often some early effects appear and then disappear, only for stronger effects to come up later. Would you say that, if some initial effects have appeared and disappeared, it would be safe to redose one hour after they have disappeared? Maybe I'm being exceedingly cautious. It's not like I don't have experience with high doses of psychedelics, but DMT seems to require a more careful approach.

 

[Jamie01]

If you wait too long you will need to dose more harmalas. If you go too high with harmalas it will make the DMT go much longer and can be more intense physically..so best to get the DMT working with the least harmalas you can get away with at first.

If unsatisfied maybe up your dose after 30 minutes. Figure out how much…gram or half gram etc. Take the time to experiment 2-3 more times until you get it. It’s better than being too deep too fast but if you are already okay with strong doses of psychedelics(esp psilocybin) you are probly okay. It’s like a condensed psilocybin trip if you don’t go big on the harmalas.

 

[blig-blug]

Today, I made my second attempt. My girlfriend had 100mg harmala HCl again, I had 125mg. We again had the equivalent to 1.5g mimosa as a brew (I made a larger batch with 30g). This time, we both had a similar experience (hers sounds somewhat more intense still, but just a little). It felt less intense than the last time (not that it was intense), but it was much longer. Once 1:30h had elapsed since the first dose, we redosed with 1.5g mimosa, and as the effects from the last dose weren't fully over it got a little bit more intense. Still less than the last time, but again it was much longer. In fact 5 hours have passed and I still have some effects. The dampened intensity may be due to the fact that today we ate a normal lunch, whereas last time we had eaten very little, almost nothing.

Even though it felt less intense, this time was much more productive, as I had more time to investigate and get familiar with the headspace. We also had music in the background, and it seemed to help guide the experience. I'm surprised because everything felt "just right", there was something encouraging to the experience. Usually psychedelics make my neuroses more evident and come to the surface, but in this case it was more like the opposite. It felt like taking a rest from walking under the shadow of some tree. I had a feeling of energy inside me (sometimes leaning towards nausea, but not in any worrying way), but my body was completely relaxed, something that is difficult for me to achieve.

At one point, I asked with my internal monologue if there was some message I should be getting. To my surprise, the thought "let the plant grow" immediately came to my mind, and started recurring many times for a few minutes. It was clearly part of my own thoughts with my own voice, but it still was surprising as I was not really expecting for anything to pop up, given how subtle the effects from this those were. This "let the plant grow" means to me to stop worrying, I'm on a good path (in life), I just have to keep going and the results will keep coming, but I need to be patient and not force anything.

I'm very surprised of how positive this experience was, given that the intensity was only like about 40ug LSD. I feel quite refreshed and encouraged.

Next time, I think I'll try 125mg harmala HCl and 2,5g mimosa brew (from this same batch).

 

[DM3]

I have plenty of experience with oral DMT. 125 mg is insufficient. This harmala dose is not enough for full MAO inhibition. Take at least 200 mg. In my experience, a better choice is 210-240 mg of the full-spectrum extract.

 

[blig-blug]

@DM3 , in your experience how long does the MAO inhibition in the gut last? I have read around 1.5-2 hours. Should I redose harmalas if I'm redosing mimosa 2 hours after taking the harmalas?

 

[northape]

Everything sounds about right. If it's the beginning of your relationship, you are doing quite well.
It's much better to start with small doses and build a connection over time, than get scared and anxious.
My dose of rue is around 3-4g and I brew a batch of mimosa tea with some rue in it too (for example, 50g mimosa + 10g rue).
So when you re-dose you will get some harmalas too. You can calculate and adjust the amount of water in your mimosa tea for a constant and
reliable dose. I try to make my tea at 30ml/dose, and it's easy to re-dose and tweak later on.

Oral mimosa is not very visual for me at all, and it comes on like a light switch. Everything becomes brighter and more clear.
It's a whole another beast on higher doses, so be careful. Medicine teas are very customizable and one needs to try different combinations to
find the right one for oneself. I'd work with harmalas a bit more. 200mg of extract sounds more reasonable, imo.

Contra main Nexus view, it's not about DMT. You are working with rue, and it's the base for experience.
DMT is the light that makes messages more clear. It's a play between two plants, but rue should be the main focus for healing.
I'm not for extracts too, actually. Even when you read pubmed about rue, it's much more than harmalas.

 

[northape]

@DM3 , in your experience how long does the MAO inhibition in the gut last? I have read around 1.5-2 hours. Should I redose harmalas if I'm redosing mimosa 2 hours after taking the harmalas?

It depends a lot on your 1st dose of rue. If you drink 5g, you'll be in it for a while.
As I mentioned, I start with 3g and have an extra 1g with my mimosa tea, so 4g in total.
If I decide to re-dose some hours later, I'll get an extra 1g with my 2nd dose.
It works for me, but you may adjust it for yourself a bit.
Think about aya tea. They brew two plants together, so you always re-dose harmalas too.

 

[doubledog]

Nothing went wrong, personal sensitivity vary quite significantly, it's not trivial to find proper dose.

My view on ayahuasca is that experience itself is like putting a seed into the soil. Important things will happen later, seed needs to sprout and plant is going to grow, do not disturb it too much. . It seems that you are on the right path, this relaxed state you describe is often first stage of the experience.

I fully agree with northape that main ingredient in aya (or analogues) is harmala, not DMT.

 

[blig-blug]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

brew a batch of mimosa tea with some rue in it too

I will probably do this in the future, once I'm more familiar with different doses of both harmalas and mimosa.

Oral mimosa is not very visual for me at all

It seems like that could be my case too.

I'm not for extracts too

I will try rue tea in the future as well, once I'm more familiar with the extract (and once I've run off of extract).

Nothing went wrong

Yes, that's becoming clear now. I only had experience with psychedelics that are relatively more predictable in the response that a given dose will cause, particularly LSD.

Today I again had a low dose Ayahuasca experience, together with my girlfriend. Following the advice above, I had 225mg harmala and 1.5g mimosa. This time the experience was considerably more intense.

I was already feeling slightly on edge before taking it, but I thought it could be just that I was nervous about it. But no, it was something else. The experience once again had very little visual component, but this time I developed strong stomach pain and nausea. I'm almost sure that this wasn't the tannins but caused by a psychological reaction: many memories of times I had felt like that in my life came to me. All those memories I was already aware of and already aware that they come from painful, difficult situations in my past (mainly early life), but I hadn't connected my "on edge" feeling of today with it. However I could see it was just the same feeling, just much more intense. I would have liked to vomit, but despite the nausea-like feeling and the idea "I may vomit", my body gave no signals of actually having any intention to vomit. At one point I was feeling paralyzed, a classic "freeze reaction". I could see in my mind's eye images of memories in the past that corresponded to it.

My girlfriend had 200mg harmalas and 1.5g mimosa, and again she reports a much stronger experience. She felt herself spin and "fly from cloud to cloud" with her eyes closed, with many visuals both with closed and open eyes. She also had negative experiences from her past come up in a very vivid and realistic way, almost as if she was there. I'm guessing she's just more sensitive in general.

None of the memories and issues that came to me were new to me, but I think I had not been paying enough attention to these aspects of my internal state in the last few months. It was very unpleasant, but I stayed calm and I'm happy that I was pointed to this. It's kind of funny that the "message" I got this time is very different from the last time, but there's no real contradiction. I'm also surprised this came up so vividly with such a small dose. I'm going to pay attention to the aspects I that came up during this experience, and next time I'll take again the same dose and see how it goes. I'm not sure yet what this "paying attention" will imply, as the issues came up but not the idea that I should do anything in particular other than being more mindful and aware of it. So that's what I will do. I'm feeling a little bit dissociated, but I suppose I'll feel more grounded tomorrow.

 

[doubledog]

I was already feeling slightly on edge before taking it, but I thought it could be just that I was nervous about it. But no, it was something else.

Ayahuasca often works even before you ingest it

Regarding messages: sometimes it's super clear 'one sentence' message, another time there seems to be no clear message or guidance.

 

[northape]

I would have liked to vomit, but despite the nausea-like feeling and the idea "I may vomit", my body gave no signals of actually having any intention to vomit.

One of the reasons I dislike extracts. They can be too clean and easy on the body.
Rue tea is a bit more taxing, but the experience is “natural” and it could be easier to purge.
Incense and mapacho work wonders for moving energies

I'm guessing she's just more sensitive in general.

It appears to be the case. Just DO NOT suddenly increase your dose of mimosa.
Sensitive people are most vulnerable to high DMT states and need slow progression, imo.
It's much better to adjust harmalas first and learn to “dance” with medicine.

I'm feeling a little bit dissociated, but I suppose I'll feel more grounded tomorrow.

That's quite normal. I always use one day off after my sessions to get a good sleep and ground myself.

Ayahuasca often works even before you ingest it

If I have a good brew, “shaking” can start hours before ingestion. It's a kind of pre-flight anxiety and
a sign that some work going to be done tonight.

Btw, Mimosa is not very kind messenger. She tends to be very direct, sharp, and firm in my experience.
Like a highly capable math / physics teacher, that knows her stuff and would point your misses right away without sugarcoating it.
This style is not for everyone, but if you are willing to listen, she has a lot to offer. And there is benevolence behind the scene,
one just requires time to see it. Best of luck with your journey!

 

[doubledog]

If I have a good brew, “shaking” can start hours before ingestion. It's a kind of pre-flight anxiety and
a sign that some work going to be done tonight.

Yes, anxiety is always there, but sometimes also "events with higher than normal psychospiritual significance" happen hours before ingestion.

 

[DM3]

@DM3 , in your experience how long does the MAO inhibition in the gut last? I have read around 1.5-2 hours. Should I redose harmalas if I'm redosing mimosa 2 hours after taking the harmalas?

I prefer to redose harmalas anytime I redose DMT. I usually have two glasses, one with DMT and one with harmalas. They look like small 50cc shots for one or two sips, and I can redose whenever I want. I don’t need to prepare anything since I have it ready. It's very convenient to do.

 

[blig-blug]

I'm going to have another low dose experience tomorrow.

Just DO NOT suddenly increase your dose of mimosa

For sure. I was thinking either having the same dose or slightly more. For example, 2g instead of 1.5g. Or would upping more the harmalas first make more sense? I think based on the lack of coordination and balance I had last time, 225mg may have been full inhibition.

 

[northape]

I'm going to have another low dose experience tomorrow.

For sure. I was thinking either having the same dose or slightly more. For example, 2g instead of 1.5g. Or would upping more the harmalas first make more sense? I think based on the lack of coordination and balance I had last time, 225mg may have been full inhibition.

I was thinking more about your girl, who is slightly sensitive here.
225mg should be enough, really. 2g of mimosa sounds fine too.
Everything from 1g to 5g of mimosa (in slow increments) should cover most people needs.
I like your approach and slow increase in doses. It's much better to get to know your medicine this way.
My guess is that you're going to end up somewhere around 3-4g in the end.
Mimosa at higher doses can become somewhat chaotic, imo. Surrender, breathe and hold your space.
Best of luck on your medicine journey

 

[blig-blug]

I was thinking more about your girl, who is slightly sensitive here.

Ah yes, definitely makes sense. She has already said she will be taking the same dose and try to get more familiar with the experience. Her experience was actually much stronger than I thought at first. She told me later she saw two beings that looked kind of like a Kokopelli silhouette several times, and it was somehow implied that they were going to teach her something related to some boxes and a machine, but she felt pulled out of the experience several times and in the end it was incomplete. She didn't tell me before about that because she thought it sounded too weird, so I reassured her those phenomena are relatively normal with Ayahuasca and nothing to be embarrassed about.

I like your approach and slow increase in doses. It's much better to get to know your medicine this way.

I agree, despite difficult moments I'm really enjoying this process. In the past I often was not careful and respectful enough with other psychedelics, and I paid the price for it each time. So I want my relationship with Ayahuasca to be unlike with those substances: a respectful and nurturing one from the beginning (even if sometimes difficult).

Mimosa at higher doses can become somewhat chaotic, imo. Surrender, breathe and hold your space.

Thank you for this advice. I'm going to focus on using my breath to navigate the experience, which is not unlikely to be of an unpleasant kind again. Also I will attempt to "embrace" more the nausea feelings should they appear again, last time I was resisting them sometimes.

Best of luck on your medicine journey

Thank you very much. I appreciate being able to get some advice from more experienced people here in the Nexus. In the past I was often too proud to ask for advice or listen to it, now I think I'm getting better at it.

 

[northape]

Man, with this attitude you will be fine not only in medicine work, but in everyday life too

Also I will attempt to "embrace" more the nausea feelings should they appear again, last time I was resisting them sometimes.

Oh, it's a tricky one, just give it your best. Simply don't be afraid to purge, but try to hold your brew down as long as possible.
This kind of stuff you learn by experience. A good purge on aya / rue brew is a godsend, actually.
Love your resistance. It's kind of necessary in order to surrender and progress.

And thank you for doing this work. It's beneficial not only to you, but all the humanity.
Strengthen your will and go with courage! Love all the way!

 

[blig-blug]

Yesterday I had another Ayahuasca experience. This time it was 225mg of harmalas again, and finally 2g mimosa. My girlfriend didn't take it because we had some tense moments that day (both of us were very sensitive and overreacted to each other). I usually wouldn't have taken a psychedelic with that set, but I actually felt that it wouldn't be a problem, somehow.

Indeed, 10 minutes after taking the harmalas I felt much more calm and centered. This time, learning from my previous experiences, I had the experience in the dark. What unfolded later is difficult to explain. This time I had visuals, they were relatively faint but very detailed, with predominantly bluish colors. Sometimes they had an hyperrealistic touch to them. Most of them were grotesque, but generally not in a disturbing way, just ugly.

Towards the peak, I was thinking about people I have hurt in the past. Images came up of kids whose bullying I participated in as a child. I could feel what I felt there, and it was actually the same feeling I had when I was bullied (something much more frequent), and the same feeling I had that same day when I was overreacting, and the same feeling I have had many other times. It was also related to the nausea feeling in my stomach. A mix of rage, and fear, and guilt. I could examine the feeling in a calm way, and somehow safely relive it. It was like having those feelings "in the third person", as if they were sandboxed. So I could feel them and see how it was, but at the same time remain calm and not overwhelmed by them. I saw the consequences of those actions. I must point out that immediately when those bullying images came up, the music I was listening to started saying over and over "that's what it is, that's what it is" in my native language. I listened to it afterwards and, while there is repetition, it doesn't say that and is not in my native language.

There was also a point where I was having stronger visuals of a more complex nature, machine-like but also looking alive. They had something that caused or brought up a "disgust" feeling I have had many times with other psychedelics. It's a disgust similar to what one would feel, for example, seeing how excrements go down the intestines, but the topic of the visuals itself wasn't of a disgusting nature (only grotesque and machine-like). The disgust reaction could also be related to feeling like my body itself is being integrated into such a machine. I will reflect on it.

This time, the nausea was less intense. It didn't appear at the beginning, it only appeared once the "bullying scenes" came up, and then it fluctuated. It became stronger towards the end, particularly when the visuals were fading. I didn't vomit. I did see my nausea as a part of me that was related to many negative experiences in my life, and the image came to my mind of a discarnate face with big eyes and teeth.

The visual part lasted around 2 hours, and I had strong insight from the harmalas for an additional hour. I felt like I could have drank more mimosa, but as it had been quite intense I didn't feel the need to do it. The harmala effects lingered for a couple of hours more, and an afterglow until this morning.

This was a very positive experience. Last experience had left me very sensitive and reactive, this one snapped me out of it. I felt like I was getting lessons about my actions and choices in life (there were more topics) in a firm and objective way, but not being blamed or scolded. Despite the difficult topics, it was a very calm experience (in general) and it was very instructive to relive some feelings and situations while at the same feeling objective about them and not overwhelmed at all. The most difficult part, the one where I felt more engulfed by feelings, was that "disgust" part, but it was relatively mild and I could observe it.

Today I feel calm and grounded. I didn't expect to get this much from relatively small doses. I was able to reconnect with my girlfriend. She had some harmalas today (without mimosa) and it also helped her a lot. We both realize we have some wounds that are sensitive, so we have to be loving and patient with each other.

I will keep exploring this space and experience, I feel like I'm learning a new skill of "Ayahuasca dreaming". Being able to look at some very painful experiences (and relive them!) that usually trigger overwhelming feelings of shame and guilt without those reactions is priceless. Next time, I will have the same amount of harmalas and 2.5g mimosa. I think I'm getting closer to an adequate dose for a fully immersive experience without it being too chaotic. Also, if I still don't vomit with 2.5g mimosa, I will stop having ginger. Ginger is helping me to keep it down at first, but it may be hindering the purge, and I do want to purge. I know it will feel like expelling that discarnate face with big teeth from me, that part full of rage and fear (at least in that moment).

This kind of stuff you learn by experience. A good purge on aya / rue brew is a godsend, actually.
Love your resistance. It's kind of necessary in order to surrender and progress.

Exactly what I think after these experiences.

I'm feeling grateful for having access to these experiences, and want to keep working on how I relate to myself, others, and the world.