Goodbye Psychedelic Community

[Varallo]

So waking up to the nexus Christmas special, great to see so much discussion on somewhat touche issues. Some posts really stood out.

The problems of our world are complex and not fully explainable using the concepts which are frequently used in the psychedelic community. Quite often people relate a multitude of social problems to a lack of understanding of our selves and our egos, or a lack of understanding of some spiritual realm, or to our inability to truly experience the world in depth. What this discourse leaves out is a sound theory of our social relations, like how the power dynamics and class hierarchies shape our reality and make up the very lens with which we see the world. Lacking an understanding of these concepts, we run the risk of letting the same problematic ideologies creep in from the backdoor which we are struggling to be free of.

Even on the personal level, there is no simple fix for our issues, one cannot simply expect to solve everything by fixing the "psyche", when a great part of that psyche itself is a product of our social reality.

To put it in simple terms, you cannot simply get high and understand the world... you also have to read some theory!

Thank you Jan for this, reading this thread I think it’s really important to see our social reality for what it is, and how it’s affecting the things that we think. We’re in a sense all on the edge of chaos at some point, moving forward and changing reality is so much more than changing the rules or dynamics of a system.

Another side note (apologies if that's too many side notes)... There's actually a lot of left wing critique of the affirmative action and other similar maneuvers. Many see it as simply a way to avoid addressing the structural problems, by implying that the mere representation is enough to address the deep seated inequalities. There's also a good deal of critique of representational politics which questions whether the "representational democracy" can even be considered democracy at all. But the louder voices are more visible, and they are... Quite stupid! They argue against essentialization of gender and end up doing the exact same thing. The worst is that this caricature of "left wing politics" as seen on the mainstream and social media, is increasingly seen as "THE left wing".

I wholeheartedly agree with that, it’s like a mirror in many ways, where both end of the spectrum are a mere reflection of each other’s fringes.


@modern I think that if you’re having the feeling that you’re going to need to a disclaimer on your thoughts, it might be best to fact check that statement.

Race will always play a role but we think mainly of Europeans enslaving black africans but all of asia and middle east also had this practice and not only with blacks. Race is a weird issue here in Brasil compared to the states. Despite a majority being considered 'mixed' and around 10-20% black and white race places a large issue. Racism is a crime here resulting in prison sentence yet the issues are still similar to in the states despite what some tourists see or think. Slavery wasn't for the benefit of the enslaved obviously but rather the nation or 'owners'. Here we still have the remnants of slavery with entire communities of 'escaped slaves' descendants still living in suboptimal conditions similar to poorer regions of the south in the states like new orleans and such. Historiclly all great empires had some form of slavery even the smaller empires in africa not just counting egypt had slaves and those are the ones that progressed the most in comparison to smaller tribes/peoples that had smaller scale or only class systems. Civilizations with the same time progression around the world didn't progress in the same manner/speed and we could argue possible reason but I'll accept we can't really know. We wouldn't have advanced in sciences without human experimentations as rapidly... (can't know so not valid?)

With the barrier (glass ceiling) placed sure it may be 'harder' for you to enter a certain field but why not just make your own path? I've read in the past a few posts on the lack of black representation or lgbt in the psychedelic community as if forced inclusion would help anything. Everyone already has the same opportunities (rarely is blatant discrimination seen in western world with only a few cases being proven rather than percieved) Forced participation when something was outright banned like black children going to white school and many other examples where you had to force and protect is one thing but now a days we don't have these barriers.

Let me pick the first two apart a bit, and point out the nuances that I are missing.

It’s not uncommon in discussions to get the argument that other groups have practiced slavery, but it’s good to put it in perspective. The Atlantic slave trade, which shaped the Americas, introduced a race-based system where black africans were dehumanized and treated as property purely because of their skin color. This system created a racial hierarchy that persists today, the race-based slavery system directly contributes to systemic racism. If you want to dive into the subject I recommend to start by reading the work of Orlando Patterson.

I think your assertion on the glass ceiling ignores extensive evidence of systemic barriers that disproportionately affect marginalized groups. While overt discrimination may have decreased, implicit biases, structural inequities, and historical disadvantages continue to impede equal opportunity.

just as an example:
I used to teach a course on professional skills for third-year bachelor’s students. In one of the early classes, we conducted an exercise where students read a set of identical application letters. The only difference between the letters was the name of the applicant. The students were asked to decide which candidates they would invite for an interview and write down their reasons.
Interestingly, only 30% of the applicants with migrant-sounding names were selected for interviews, compared to 75% of those with non-migrant-sounding names. When we reviewed the students’ reasoning, we noticed that the same arguments were used both as strengths and weaknesses, depending on the name of the applicant. This highlighted how biases can influence decision-making in professional contexts.

Anyway off to 3 Christmas

 

[Transform]

I'm taking it easy for the rest of the night but just wanted to comment it's funny and silly how the divine feminine is often conveniently so sexy. Not so frequently mentioned as feminine is the unprecedented strength of will to get through childbirth and other unique hardships women face. I think women in general probably have a higher pain tolerance than men.

It's shocking to me how quickly what is best and true is evolving, even day by day. The ideas he promoted were probably necessary for adoption at the time.

There was definitely more than a small element of showmanship with Terence that led to his relative success as a popular psychedelic communicator. Sticking to dry facts simply wouldn't have worked, not
least because of the vast gaps in knowledge and understanding at the time, alongside those aspects of unknowabillity and unenglishability that goes with the territory. In that sense, you have me agreeing - it was necessary at the time and he did at least a memorable and reasonably effective job of it.

This brings us back to another aspect of the question - who are, or will be, the figurehead communicators now and in the years that immediately follow? The communication landscape has changed so dramatically, for one thing, and anyhow, just starting to think about what the motivations might be brings me to realise that that question - motivations - is its own can of worms.

 

[modern]

I spent two months in Brazil traveling and doing volunteer work so have seen and experienced what you're referring to first-hand... Since I'm primarily black, it's something that impacts me. I happen to be pretty German too, but that's besides the point

However, the world over, the darker you are the more oppressed you likely are. Even in Africa.

So we should sacrifice the lives of others for the sake of progress?
Do you condone the Tuskegee experiments?
What about MK Ultra (so we can take a little heat off the racial side, because what we're talking about is deeper than that)
I'm trying to understand, because I don't see how it being historic makes it acceptable? We have historically been a lot more unstable, should we continue to be unstable (even though on the whole we are ) I feel similarly about something becoming the norm. I've used this one before, but obesity is becoming more normal in the US, so should it just be accepted?


I'd argue that we certainly have these barriers, they've just been masked. Take schools for example. In the US, funding for schools is typically alotted based on the performance of the students of the school on the whole on certain standardized tests. Naturally, the more educated kids from wealthier backgrounds, with more educated and knowledgeable parents, tend to score higher, get the most funding, and therefore the best equipment, the best teachers and coaches, and an overall better education than kids from lower incomes. There are so many tiny variables that add up to the big picture here.
Discrimination has been masked. One way is you just don't say it. I've seen female cultivators get turned away in the marijuana industry because they were women, and yes, I heard men say that was why they chose not to hire them.
We do not have the same opportunities because opportunities are attached to many factors such as socio-economic status, environment, fostering, upbringing, etc. I do not have the same opportunity as Ice-Cube's son.
There's saying like "the good ol boy's group for a reason."
There was a district in Alabama (I think) years ago that closed down the only DMV for a wide radius in a mostly black low-income area, with the excuse being funding. These kinds of acts impact whole communities of people.
There was a bus route changed in a part of Texas years ago, limiting it's movement through another mostly black low-income area. Being low-income means you may not have a car.
These types of changes compound and again impact whole communities that are typically uneducated as well. We are not provided the same opportunities.

I'm not mad at all by the way


A very small number overall. Let's be real. For so many it's hard to even get into the room.


It seems that this can also be an argument for how woman are just as good at men at some things we think they aren't... you seemed to have turned out pretty well.
As for me, my dad rarely had a job... and was abusive. Mine was around, and he still couldn't cut the mustard.


Then this also applies to what you said about women being able to make it and equal opportunity
On a real note though, my response was misplaced because I didn't realize what you meant regarding how black and latino men are hurting. I thought you meant in the sense that women were making money, not that some are growing up without fathers.
And outlier statistics change a lot of things when they are no longer outliers.


Well, I'm enjoying talking to you, and I hope you don't think I'm hurt. I'm not.


I like this example. For me, it shows the societal pressure for men to stifle their emotions. Not all men, very few probably, are in dire positions, that are life or death, on a regular basis where they need to stifle emotion so greatly. They are mainly at desk jobs. It ends up coming out wrong in the end anyway.
Indoctrination can span generations, why not millennia.

One love

Entry difficulty will be different for all. Sure if you are white and privileged family you have an easier time but honestly to say oh I can’t because it’s harder or this or that it just shifting the blame. When we talk about schooling systems we act as though there are not trailer parks and these issues don’t affect all races. Sure historical black people that have applied for home loans have had predatory loans with higher rates and there are lots of “food deserts” that occur in poor often black communities but they exist in everywhere. Like I mentioned here in Brazil race is strange I just consider myself Brazilian but having a darker complexion and black roots in aware of the differences experience particularly in the south where it’s mainly a European descendent population. I’ve been mistaken for workers where I live and small nuances like that despite having lived here for years. In the states I has the cops called to a house I was house /dog sitting thinking I was a burglar. Just because the perceived entrance fee or getting into a door is higher than it is for others doesn’t stop those that want to. I’m aware of the issues and I lived in what many considered the ghetto and know the discrimination people pass. The issue however is the lack of giving back to your community or origins. Here in Brazil man say “ the ghetto won” since it is a huge influence on our culture with music and style yet all the artists that escape the poverty never give back be it making food markets or charities. Some do make donations to school but most just expose the huge contrast to their new realities in gated communities or overseas. Like in the states where BET was created due to the lack of representation in movies and tv there are many black owned banks and entrepreneurs empowerment guidance. I do agree that having darker complexion makes life harder universally in India with class systems and even Africa like you mentioned.

Today with the internet information is everywhere but how you choose to use it is up to you. Accessibility in the states im certain is above 90% considering here it is around 80-90%. The chances to escape and learn what you don’t have access to is up to the individual however most prefer to stay in the status they were born into. We act like the oneness of psychedelic experience is universal and everyone is good at heart… there is a duality. Couples die on the first day of cycling Middle East to prove no all bad, activists here in Brazil killed for trying to help native tribes against illegal miners, countless death mines for minerals or stones in Africa, ethnic cleansing that happens, endless slave like factories in all the overseas countries that provide the cheap access we take for granted in richer countries particularly USA and EU. These issues I mention are not to diminish the social problems we face but to show they non issues for those that have to make 1-2 dollars a day or sometimes a month to survive.

Despite these extreme poverty conditions many have access to the internet and many choose to help their communities despite the insane entrance difficulty they face. Race will always play an role as will sex with saying that it’s an issue until you use it to your benefits. Not always easy but it is possible.

The benefit of the internet is these issues only arise if you choose to present it. I think many issues we all face regardless of the conditions we are born into is language. Many topics are hard to discuss directly without referencing or using allegories and other techniques to try to convey the point which seems so obvious to us but hard to explain like some of our experiences.


The notion men bottle up their emotions again is a cultural issue. I think here in Brazil the issue is many don’t do it enough with relationships being so extreme and wear your heart on your sleeve passion is high but so are emotions with many accepting ending relationships and such and ending in violence. This goes both ways with women also being extreme. Men feel, cry and everything but the feminine aspect is seperate for a reason.

This topic is tough since many things are connected to how we see the world. As bad and tough as I had it in the states once I’ve returned to Brazil the contrast is massive and despite the many barriers that exist we all have a “way to make it work”. This does impede many things since not always the “correct way” but despite massive inflation and social issues everyone lives life and overall are “warm and welcoming”. Having grown up in the states this is a huge difference but then lack of security/safety diminishes the feeling.

Im certain if we asked members in India or other countries where these issues are much more complex than in the states we may get similar or even stronger responses.

@Voidmatrix I like your perspective on this topic

I’ll read the other replies later. Any responses I add “these are my own ideas and can ignore” is many times people get offended by others having such contrast ideas even if it doesn’t affect their personal lives that someone thinks that way.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Entry difficulty will be different for all. Sure if you are white and privileged family you have an easier time but honestly to say oh I can’t because it’s harder or this or that it just shifting the blame

Allow me to clarify. I am not saying that people can't do "x." What I am saying is that it is statistically harder for some than others, where many will try and fail, more than of a privileged population.

When we talk about schooling systems we act as though there are not trailer parks and these issues don’t affect all races.

True, however it's about ratios. Example: black Americans, who are 13% of the population make up 20% of the impoverished.

Relative to the internet, it doesn't actually help much without literacy. Literacy is an issue the world over. Dissemination of certain kinds of information matters too. Privileged groups work with different and more advantageous information than non-privileged people.

@Voidmatrix I like your perspective on this topic

Thank you. I'm just glad that we are having such a productive conversation from different side of the fence.



One love

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

A side note... I think it would do us all a lot of good to stay away from the "social internet" as much as possible.

For you to develop a certain sense, yes, i’d say. But once you come to your senses, you must re-enter into the social internet because you identify with the world.

I think knowledge is blind without the affect.

And I think affect is blind without reality
And…

We’re in a sense all on the edge of chaos at some point, moving forward and changing reality is so much more

Haha I respect you deeply if your eyes are compassionate

who are, or will be, the figurehead communicators now and in the years that immediately follow?

I’m very worried for children these days when it comes to their minds and souls being mined. Children have no voice in our culture. We don’t give them rights and they are not well represented at all. Right now, YouTube is mining their souls throughout all formative years. It’s freaking me out. We will pay for it when we realize they grow into senseless world leaders, since we exploited their senses from birth. The loudest act out and communicate, everyone else listens. There are figurehead communicators, and figurehead BE’ers. The latter of which are existentially accommodating the former

 

[Jungleheart]

@modern I think you have clearly stated that poverty is one of the driving factors behind gender roles. One of the things I did with my first paycheck was get therapy. We analyzed the impact of poverty on my family and what is called "inter-generational trauma".

Poverty causes trauma that is passed down through generations. It contributes to chronic stress, substance abuse, emotional abuse, loss of safety and more rigid gender roles.

Due to limited resources, it makes sense to invest in the physically stronger gender that is not going to be held back by pregnancy. I agree in these environments, it might be best for men to be given more opportunities. Traditional gender roles may be celebrated more because people are just doing what needs to get done to get by, and doing it with a good attitude.

But is it ideal? Let's take a moment to consider women's role to get us to this point in history. Most women haven't had the luxury of not working. So they had to take care of the children and elderly parents while working, often doing physical labor. They didn't have control over their money, they had to give it to their husbands. They didn't have the ability to own property. They didn't have control over their own reproduction. They weren't able to turn their husband down for sex or leave if he is abusive. This is still the case in many, many parts of the world. There is no ability to seek self-expression because of their obligations.

All while men have been free to build society.

This is what is natural, right? But it's certainly not ideal, it's just based on necessity.

The degree of prosperity in the West has completely taken those shackles off of women who choose it. I am not well off in the US but my quality of life is insanely good. I have a garden, clean air, filtered water, tea, supplements, organic food, gym, sauna, fashionable clothes, fiber internet, cars, all at an affordable price. Technology has reduced the barriers to education significantly.

I can pick a partner who can cook, clean and be nurturing or choose to stay single. Men have had to up their game. The gender landscape has completely changed in more prosperous areas.

And by the way, I completely disagree with your sentiment that women would rather not work and think this is not the case when interesting opportunities are available to them. Women now make up about 60% of university undergraduates. They are now the majority in medical and law school. I know many men who are less ambitious and have home-making skills. Besides, wouldn't most people prefer not to work?

I moved from a city to a more economically depressed rural area and the gender roles are here. Women are primarily homemakers and caretakers. It honestly feels like I'm living 100 years in the future compared to people here.

Equitable resource distribution is essential as a foundational step before addressing other indicators of well-being. I still consider what the world would be like with abundant resources as a thought experiment, and because I think it is in our planet's future - perhaps not as far away as we think.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

@Jungleheart yes and yes and more Yes

~

Technology also leverages energy androgynously, since sex does not matter as much in its leverage. I feel like this is fundamental to our way of life, and is upstream to many many many aspects of our society. By energy I mean access to food, and power of manipulation ~

Similarly I’d say that the power dynamics in most of the last 10,000 years were shaped by how humanity came to leverage energy. We moved away from the earth and became heavy craftsmen. Women used to have control over at least, if not oftentimes more than half of a tribe caloric influx, and also they had a lot of material leverage in everything else they could make and do. They also didn’t have to supervise kids ANYWHERE NEAR to as much as we do today. The kids ran around in nature mostly and were cared for by women collectively. The Technologization which manifested from food surplus of the Holocene made a new way of life which basically isolated women, overburdened them, and literally disempowered them. I’m not saying this is good or bad, it’s just how it is.

I’m not surprised that with so much energy surplus, so many repressed demographics have been able to free themselves. The energy is freeing, and I worry for women's rights in the future as a result because there might be far less energy available, or just, far less everything. We are free to be as we like, because we can, for the time being,

I’ll stop there! Didn’t even get anywhere

 

[modern]

@Voidmatrix and @Varallo
Percentage and statistics tend to make things a bit more cold and don't show full scope of many things. I've seen the 13% of the population statistic used for less favorable points to be proven. But going on with this rational... how much of the population is privileged financially? Money makes money so yes generational wealth is something but looking at statistics most millionaires are self made. We both cherry pick statistics a little to prove our point but I do agree that as a whole blacks have had a disproportional disadvantage from the start but that barrier in first world countries is considered null which is why when immigrants from other countries always have praise despite knowing the difficulties.

In Florida Lauderhill was built from ZERO by a group of black entrepreneur millionaires with the purposes of helping black members of the new community surpass many issues of entry of buying accessible homes and having access to other services. The point I'm trying to make is you want the system you feel is against you "in some cases still is" to work in your favor isn't logical. I'm certain most here have enough understanding even if not financially free know the path to that goal. What I saw in the states and continue to see here in Brasil is advance marketing where they either endless loop you to gamble, enter vices, or spend frivolously on things that don't matter but give perceived value. Shoes, hair, material objects that serve singular purpose or no purpose. In the states it becomes easy to "follow the Joneses." yet the endless spending on things that lose or lack value are what keep the masses poor.

Race will always play a role but like I mentioned you can always use your sex, race or other 'group' use this to their advantage by marketting to those groups. Nothing wrong with it but to say that systemic racism or sexism is what stops I think may be a cultural thing. Here despite how 'difficult' it is people save for years or just operate 'underground' provided the services that people pay like salons, drugs, religous relics or services. Icons will generally market makeup, clothes, and other unessentials that will not enrich the communities they are serving but enrich themselves. (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT)

Literacy is an issue here and agree it is a massive barrior especially in the poorest remote regions but with the internet whomever wants to learn can EVEN IF VIA incorrect/outdated information. Many programmers and hackers here are from the most populated slums yet have spent years self taught or naturally comes to them. Does lack of an entierence to a university make it harder to find work or legal avenues yes but again I think it is a cultureal issue we are butting heads on.

There will always be others that go ahead and those that stay behind. Information and access to information has changed MASSIVELY in the past decade. AI is going to make it worse for many that can't find authentic information but in general still makes it easier to atleast get a foot in the door.

Paywalls and memberships are something that I think many communities need to go away from and always offer free alternatives even if they do want to sell a product/service which does a better job.
@Jungleheart I'm aware that women had limitations in the past which for the most part are now gone with some still showing up but most issues are self imposed. Entire societies were built by men (free or slave) and the infrastructures are all maintained for the most part by men. In the past women would have different roles in communities. If that is what they wanted or not I can't speak to but it was what they were able to do since before industrial revolutions pretty much all jobs were manual labor. There have always been certain 'ages' where the arts and such which women were involved at times.

now make up about 60% of university undergraduates... but in which fields? I have never said women are uncapable of most jobs since now a days most dont require physcial abilities however most barriors that I've noticed in the states are not for fields that noone wants. I agree there are women that are more ambious that men and many are even more capable and smarter than many but the issue I see with this any many other issues with race and such is like I want to be recognized by a group that has always been white men but feel that they need to recognize me rather than making my own.

There are issues that have come with modernization that most overlook. Now a days a woman working is pretty much obligatory in the states but before WW1/2 where women could work but didn't have the nessessity to work since the wage of men could maintain the household. There have always been women that worked even when they had less rights. After the wars ended and work force DOUBLED almost instantly since the men that were able would return to work jobs that some women have now occupied. We could say oh but thats because we removed women from their cages and showed they were able to do the same jobs but the wages wouldn't increase at the same rate since supply of workers were much higher. Then other issues like geting lower wages for the same job but then continue working regardless due to needing the income especially now.

Like I mentioned when I say gender roles I don't exactly mean you need to fall into the typical boxes we think of. Most if not all women here in Brasil work and are for the most part self sustained. I have zero issues with that and without that most would be in big trouble.

"I can pick a partner who can cook, clean and be nurturing or choose to stay single. Men have had to up their game. The gender landscape has completely changed in more prosperous areas."

There are men that have zero issues with that but you mentioned yourself that 'men had to up their game'. Generally speaking you wouldn't date a man with lower social status/ finance than yourself where you would sustain them. Cooking and cleaning is something everyone can do for themselves however nurturing and gender landscape changing has brought more issues that we are overlooking.
Just because we can see this as a non issue doesn't mean it'll be a nonissue for the masses. Here in Brasil there is an issue with lonelyness since most are very extrovert yet due to each expecting more and more of each other finding relationships tend to either not happen or happen too quickly since a majority of women want children (dont need to be in a relationship to have children) In the states I'm sure it is also an issue with the amount of dating apps and such.
With already limited number of people each person is attracted to and further increasing the barriers/expectations we place ourselves most end up single and regret the solitude.

Exceptions are not the norm. I know there are many doctors, scientist and other positions with women leading the fields but most are also dedicated to the work and sometimes don't have children often regretting it. I am generalizing a lot but what we each see is what is swaying out opinions on this topic like you mentioned in your group of friends do you think that is the masses? You mentioned the contrast of city life vs country life... are the women unhappier or the same issues? We can always nitpick and keep circling this topic. I'm open to keep talking about this if you are.


Many of my opinions have changed since moving to Brasil. The culture if completely different in many aspects and in many ways completely different worlds compared to the states.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Its interesting because in many of your examples that are favorable to there no longer being barriers, each one seems like a exception and not the norm. There also seems to be a little swaying of extremes.

However, there are more penetrating aspects to consider. In your example relative to immigrants and black Americans, one must consider the difference of mindset, which is highly nuanced and has many vectors. One of which is the way they look at a country based on optics fed to them and experienced: an immigrant sees opportunity, a black person feels and experiences oppression.

And it's not just about having information, it's also about how to interpret and use it. If I give an aboriginal a computer, they now have information, but they may not even know it. It's like my issue with reparations. You can't give uneducated people a bunch of money and call things good. They won't know how to use the money to better their situation and that of their community, it'll instead be squandered. Educate first the provide reparations.

However i respect our differing opinions.

One love

 

[Jungleheart]

According to the research, gender roles are shaped by both natural and cultural factors. While biological differences such as physical strength and reproductive roles may provide a baseline for certain traditional roles, culture plays the dominant role in defining, enforcing, and transforming these expectations.

Research supports this cultural influence:

• In a 2017 Pew Research Center study, 77% of people in Sweden—a highly egalitarian society—agreed that gender does not determine the suitability for specific roles, compared to only 44% in India, highlighting how cultural attitudes influence perceptions of gender.
• Studies on labor participation show the impact of cultural shifts: In the U.S., women now make up nearly 47% of the workforce, compared to just 29% in 1948, illustrating how economic and social changes redefine traditional roles.
• In caregiving, men’s involvement has risen significantly, with fathers in the U.S. spending an average of 8 hours per week on childcare in 2016, up from 2.5 hours in 1965, reflecting cultural shifts in expectations.

Moreover, neuroscience challenges fixed notions of "natural" gender roles. Studies show that the human brain is highly adaptable, with learning and environment significantly shaping behaviors and skills. This is evident in countries like Rwanda, where women hold 61% of parliamentary seats—a direct result of policies promoting gender equity, not biological predisposition.

These statistics underscore the malleability of gender roles, demonstrating that while biology may offer a foundation, culture overwhelmingly determines how roles are assigned, valued, and enacted. The increasing fluidity of roles in modern societies highlights the transformative power of cultural change in dismantling restrictive gender norms and fostering equality.

Another important factor to consider is that Brazil has a strong Catholic and Evangelical presence, which significantly influences biblical perspectives on gender roles.

I think it is worth examining what your consider to be facts to determine whether they might be opinions. You state women are happier without jobs and with kids. You state women would not date someone who made less than them. I think it is worth examining whether these might be assumptions and if you have evidence to support them. If you don't have evidence, it's an opinion, not a fact.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

^ In short words
Culture is downstream of nature, and our relationship to it

 

[modern]

@Voidmatrix
Do you condone the Tuskegee experiments?
What about MK Ultra (so we can take a little heat off the racial side, because what we're talking about is deeper than that)
I'm trying to understand, because I don't see how it being historic makes it acceptable? We have historically been a lot more unstable, should we continue to be unstable (even though on the whole we are ) I feel similarly about something becoming the norm. I've used this one before, but obesity is becoming more normal in the US, so should it just be accepted?

I never read about the tuskegee experiments. But any information obtained should and has been used to advance medically/scientifically. IDK if any information on these experiments were even useful since it does seem to have been purely a race superiority play. Many things have been learned/developed by/for unethical purposes with our major advances as societies always revolving around wars. Nazis preformed lots of unethical experiments on prisoners mostly Jews but all races they deemed inferior I remember reading something about not treating something that happened because the evidence was based on the data they provided. With MK Ultra and many other experiments be it medical or social have been preformed but usually we tend to learn from these extreme processes.

Being historical doesn't make it 'correct' or 'right' but it was a necessary action that everyone benefited from regardless. Like with early medical experiments usually on patients that will die regardless we have killed hundreds upon thousands was that all an error? Thru creating poisons and toxins we also develop cures and treatments. With every advancement there comes issues like with guns, drugs, and other social issues.

I think I shared my point on this? It doesn't make it correct but even with ai doing computations we will still have to experiment on humans and long term effects are only evident sometimes decades in the future. (Lead, black lung, cancer from many products) We choose the most extreme cases however even 'innocent' errors due to lack of knowledge information we all progress from those issues.

@Jungleheart The last phase will bleed into your response. Errors have always occurred and sometimes it takes decades centuries or even millennia to notice and correct. I may be completely wrong in my way of thinking and that is fine. I also see your point of view but something we all do is choose what we want to see. Reviews and research on smaller countries that don't have the same social issues of others are not compatible. A fix that works in USA will not fix the same problem in another country and the reverse. The amount of the population in the work force isn't an argument in favor of progression but speaks to the economy and social issues of that country. Here in brasil women made 34,8% in 1990 reaching 52,2% em 2023 and even higher now I'm sure but that is due to social issues I've mentioned and economical disparity. The role of time spent sharing work load in homes have also shifted greatly but due to staggered work schedules and lack of job opportunities for those that remain in the household.

"This is evident in countries like Rwanda, where women hold 61% of parliamentary seats"
Like other examples is Rwanda advancing at the same rate and with less corruption? I actually think that women would be better in these roles just from the way men and women think differently and the 'natural' caregiver role that you want to overplay as bad?

Further, you are saying women who don't work and have kids are happier as if it is a fact without any evidence.
If I stated this my bad would be better phased as a majority would be happier as are men that have had children. Wanting to think we are superior to natural instinct of producing offspring is strange to me... sure we are far more complex than than animals. A physical inability to have children or a choosing to not have them by choice doesn't make someone unhappy and there are many that choose this path which is fine. NOTHING is one size fits all but as a vast majority most CHOOSE to have children even in later years sometimes spending lots of money on treatments.

Happiness is strange since it is temporary but many have replaced children with pets or jobs. This isn't specific to women and am well aware that some shouldn't even have children even if possible. There are physical and physiological changes in women after having children. Are they needed for happiness? NO If you dont have children are you unhappy? NO If you don't have children will you regret it? That is based on individuals but like plants and animals natural instinct to produce offspring we have the same.

I like how everyone gives good data in sharing their points of views and don't just say but everyone knows or what not.

 

[modern]

as an example:
I used to teach a course on professional skills for third-year bachelor’s students. In one of the early classes, we conducted an exercise where students read a set of identical application letters. The only difference between the letters was the name of the applicant. The students were asked to decide which candidates they would invite for an interview and write down their reasons.
Interestingly, only 30% of the applicants with migrant-sounding names were selected for interviews, compared to 75% of those with non-migrant-sounding names. When we reviewed the students’ reasoning, we noticed that the same arguments were used both as strengths and weaknesses, depending on the name of the applicant. This highlighted how biases can influence decision-making in professional contexts.

Bias is everywhere even if you don’t notice it without even including race. Brand recognition, reviews, price, and other aspects. This bias you mentioned is the reason against affirmative action as well.
Im certain I may be wrong on my topic positions but trying to blame on systemic issues will always just push the issue to another. If it were so easy to fix as many state it would have been resolved.

Knowing these systemic bias that everyone has and I’m sure will be repeated in the future as demographics changes.

Certain behaviors that people see as racist are just self preservation reactions/defenses. Be it nationalism or racism they all serve purposes which you can say I no longer needed depending on your outlook in direction the world should take.
There have been studies testing reactions of people seeing unknown black men and even black men had the same fight or flight reaction. Same as baby animals fearing shadows of certain animals.
Logical or not these issues will not go away since fear of the unknown is a good trait to have to ensure survival.

As advanced as we get there will always be cultural differences that others will see as backwards and they say the same about the others.

 

[modern]

Its interesting because in many of your examples that are favorable to there no longer being barriers, each one seems like a exception and not the norm. There also seems to be a little swaying of extremes.

I may be illogical or inconsistent. I’m aware I have bias but not always aware when I use them. That’s the part of open debates I like to get questioned on. When you get time please point it out and show the contradiction.

One I notice is I say exceptions are not the norm but use exceptions for the reason that it is possible to overcome. But with be the change you want to see I give examples of those that do.

In general how many people actually change life conditions? Like if born in poverty how many actual escape proportional to those that don’t? Race and sex don’t play a role IMO as much as education. I agree with your mention that giving money to someone that doesn’t know what to do with it doesn’t help which is why lotto winners and most pro players end up broke. But then education is unequal but those that are poor are poor regardless of race or sex. A poor white kid will have the same lack of education as a poor black kid

But most here tend to think on ideals. We should all be equal and such but the main issue I see is socialism/communism doesn’t work since there will always be a difference.

A poor white man and a poor black man will statistically remain poor regardless of any systemic issues.

These I think don’t include any extremes and remain with my point of views.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I may be illogical or inconsistent. I’m aware I have bias but not always aware when I use them. That’s the part of open debates I like to get questioned on. When you get time please point it out and show the contradiction.

One example is in the reference to that it is possible for marginalized people to make and so everyone should a no one should place blame on the system as a hindrance. While it is possible, the odds are stacked against many by virtue of their "loadout" in life. Pointing out the there are women of color who have risen points to an exception, not the norm. As you pointed out, most aren't able to change their socio economic status through their lifetime.

Sex and race play a role in the type of education one gets. Poorer black communities tend to have poor education, and one of the reasons I already highlighted above. There are societal pressures and expectations that tend people towards certain mental avenues than others, like how boys take woodshop and girls take home-ec. No boy or girl has to take the class the most boys or girls are in, but the demographic is part of the consideration of which to take. Societal expectations also pretend that women don't have logical capacities, so there's not as many women in fields like mathematics as there are men.

And a poor white kid may also have a poor education, but they are likely to be more well-informed than a black kid by virtue of having parents, and they themselves, appealing to the dominant racial demographic of the country. Poor white kids go camping, poor black kids don't. This is what I mean about information sets. Think about the information set one has in an area where one of their most idenfying features (race) is prevalent whose ancestors immigrated here vs someone who's identifying feature seems less valued and whose ancestors were kidnapped and brought here.

But most here tend to think on ideals. We should all be equal and such but the main issue I see is socialism/communism doesn’t work since there will always be a difference.

What do you mean here? Are you saying that we shouldn't care about injustice? That would shouldn't strive for the ideals of equity and equality?

A poor white man and a poor black man will statistically remain poor regardless of any systemic issues.

But each of their experiences will be dynamically different by virtue of their differences in most cases.

One of the considerations I'm making in looking at this systemically is by looking at proportions and ratios. So while we can boil it down to two hypothetical people, the issue is encompassing of many many people. As an example, looking at poverty, to state the statistic another way, black people make up a little over 1/10 of the US population but make up a 1/5 of the poverty population.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm going to take a step back. I'm feeling a bit defunct today. And nothing related to the conversation here. This has been great. I'm very thankful. Sending love to you all.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Something that highlights the minutia of some of my points.

One love

 

[Varallo]

Bias is everywhere even if you don’t notice it without even including race. Brand recognition, reviews, price, and other aspects. This bias you mentioned is the reason against affirmative action as well.
Im certain I may be wrong on my topic positions but trying to blame on systemic issues will always just push the issue to another. If it were so easy to fix as many state it would have been resolved.

Knowing these systemic bias that everyone has and I’m sure will be repeated in the future as demographics changes.

Certain behaviors that people see as racist are just self preservation reactions/defenses. Be it nationalism or racism they all serve purposes which you can say I no longer needed depending on your outlook in direction the world should take.
There have been studies testing reactions of people seeing unknown black men and even black men had the same fight or flight reaction. Same as baby animals fearing shadows of certain animals.
Logical or not these issues will not go away since fear of the unknown is a good trait to have to ensure survival.

As advanced as we get there will always be cultural differences that others will see as backwards and they say the same about the others.

It seems you’re conflating multiple concepts, like personal consumer bias (brand recognition, price) with systemic forms of discrimination, then using “evolutionary fear” to justify them all under the same umbrella. Affirmative action addresses institutional inequities, not primal threat responses. By mixing up these distinct issues, the complexity of each one gets lost, and the argument glosses over how targeted policies can help mitigate the social and economic impacts of bias.

Cultural differences and the misinterpretation of certain behaviors may persist, but that does not negate our capacity to cooperate and enact policies that curb the damage biases inflict. Dismissing systemic barriers as “just shifting problems around” overlooks the material inequalities baked into our institutions, from education to healthcare. These are not intractable facts of nature; they are man-made structures that can be reformed.

In short, recognizing bias does not give it a free pass. It should serve as a call to action, not an excuse to shrug and say, “That’s just human nature.”

A poor white man and a poor black man will statistically remain poor regardless of any systemic issues.

Sadly race still is an economic disadvantage and a major limit in upward mobility, so to rephrase this sentence it should be; Although both a poor white man and a poor black man are statistically likely to remain in poverty, systemic barriers mean that the poor black man has fewer opportunities to move up.

 

[Jungleheart]

Some interesting facts:

Eastern European countries rank relatively high in gender equality in STEM education and careers. For example:

• In Lithuania, 57% of STEM graduates are women, one of the highest rates in the EU.
• In Bulgaria, 54% of STEM graduates are women.
• In Latvia, 52% of scientists and engineers are women.

Women are particularly well-represented in disciplines like mathematics, computer science, and engineering in countries such as Russia, Ukraine, and Poland.

 

[Varallo]

Some interesting facts:

Eastern European countries rank relatively high in gender equality in STEM education and careers. For example:

• In Lithuania, 57% of STEM graduates are women, one of the highest rates in the EU.
• In Bulgaria, 54% of STEM graduates are women.
• In Latvia, 52% of scientists and engineers are women.

Women are particularly well-represented in disciplines like mathematics, computer science, and engineering in countries such as Russia, Ukraine, and Poland.

But I am pretty sure that they don’t have the same opportunities to move up in organizations or get the same salary as their male counterparts.