HELP, I fried something

[EphemeralTruth]

BACKGROUND:
I did my first pharma trip with Harmine & THH powder about 2 weeks ago. I had tested the Harmine prior but not the THH.

I used 180mg Harmine, 50mg THH, and 65mg DMT. My previous trip was two weeks prior, a relatively moderate dose of MDMA (~200mg).

The pharma did not go well--I felt like a spotlight was in my eyes the whole time and had difficulty concentrating on the DMT headspace. In retrospect I think this was my serotonin system being blasted (though I don't know why). The harmalas kept me up for 16 hours or so, and I felt like crap the next several days with really severe headaches.


FAST FORWARD:
11 days after this experience, I tried a light LSD trip (120ug). IT WAS HELL. The LSD "worked" as it should, but my system felt fried. During the trip it felt like being in an ash tray or a hairdryer. Even though mentally I was in the LSD, nothing Felt Good. Music, art, nature... all of it was gray. About halfway through the trip I realized this wasn't just a "bad trip" but that my serotonin system must be fried from the DMT pharma.

Has anyone ever experienced something like this? Did your system heal in time? How long did it take?

I'm very concerned, as clearly serotonin is super important for mental health and for any kind of tryptamine use. I have always tried to be careful and conservative, but somehow I still fucked up. PLEASE HELP.

 

[OneIsEros]

This is highly irregular. Stop using all drugs for a long time. Minimum 3 months. Longer would be better. There is no magic pill that will be better than that. Sorry.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Likely to do with the MDMA, as it depletes Serotonin, Dopamine and Noradrenaline. It's recommended to supplement with 5-HTP (or maybe Tryptophan) and L-Dopa (or maybe Tyrosine) after MDMA use to replenish the body's supply of neurotransmitters. MDMA can be neurotoxic and long term use has been linked to neurodegeneration and damage. Rare, maybe occasional use of MDMA in the right dosages may not be much of an issue, idk, i've only ever tried it once, but it can definitely cause more of a problem than Serotonergic agonists.

I took Rue/Harmalas and oral DMT near daily for 4 years, felt fine, never felt fried or damaged in any way. Have also taken LSD a few times, mushrooms, 4-ACO-DMT, Psilohuasca, even 25-D Nbombe a few times, never had an issue. So the Pharmahuasca isn't anything to be concerned about.

 

[Hailstorm]

I am no doctor, so please do not take it as a recommendation. I do know, however, that your body makes serotonin from tryptophan, which you can get from certain foods or buy as a dietary supplement.

 

[OneIsEros]

I’d advise against the supplements. For example, L-Dopa common side-effects: WebMD's A to Z Drug Database

Look, unless you’re experiencing some awful daily effects from all of this in your sober life, just give it 3-6 months without getting high like a normal human being. I trip every week, but if it seems to be messing with your health, give it a rest dude.

Also, 200 mg MDMA is heavy, not moderate. Maybe that’s not what caused this, I don’t know. But just give it a rest for 3-6 months, and don’t mess with your neurochemistry anymore / including with supplements based on completely unprofessional medical lore from the psychedelic community, lol. No offense guys.

We have no idea if this is “serotonin depletion”, it honestly sounds more like seizure symptoms to me. You just jump into thinking you understand what’s going on.... you don’t dude. No one does. I have no idea what this is. Just give it a rest for a long time. 3 months minimum. I recommend longer.

 

[EphemeralTruth]

I’d advise against the supplements. For example, L-Dopa common side-effects: WebMD's A to Z Drug Database

Look, unless you’re experiencing some awful daily effects from all of this in your sober life, just give it 3-6 months without getting high like a normal human being. I trip every week, but if it seems to be messing with your health, give it a rest dude.

Also, 200 mg MDMA is heavy, not moderate. Maybe that’s not what caused this, I don’t know. But just give it a rest for 3-6 months, and don’t mess with your neurochemistry anymore / including with supplements based on completely unprofessional medical lore from the psychedelic community, lol. No offense guys.

We have no idea if this is “serotonin depletion”, it honestly sounds more like seizure symptoms to me. You just jump into thinking you understand what’s going on.... you don’t dude. No one does. I have no idea what this is. Just give it a rest for a long time. 3 months minimum. I recommend longer.

I definitely will rest, though it makes me very sad to do so as I have gotten great benefit from psychedelics and have an unusual amount of free time with COVID going on.

That being said, I have never tripped more than once every 2 weeks and the MDMA trip was my first experience with the substance and obtained from a trusted source. 200mg was the total amount with the re-up, and was a pretty mild experience with NO after-effects or molly blues. I was very careful about avoiding interactions before and after, as I was with the pharma trip as well.

The only thing I can imagine is that the "THH" I ordered was NOT THH, but maybe some kind of SSRI, which possibly led to some sort of serotonin syndrome. The receptors felt (and still feel, more mildly) burnt out. I do believe these receptors will heal in time, but I think the community needs to be aware of potentially dangerous substances being sold online.

If anyone has access to lab equipment, I'd be happy to send them my "THH" and find out what it really is. This really sucks.

 

[dragonrider]

Yes, i think we need that question sorted out first. Maybe you could PM endlessness. He is very much into testing plants and chemicals.

There is always the possibility though, that what you went through was auto-suggestion. That you had this experience because you already believed you where burned out in some way, because of that previous experience.

Whatever is the case, if there is one way to get your biochemistry going again that is safe, reliable and not too costly, it is a healthy diet with a lot of variation (don't eat the same "superfoods" everyday) and physical exercise.

 

[Prima Materia]

I had felt fried as well. I felt like my nervous system is burning somehow. I'm again here with the ayurveda - but - these substances do worsen a certain force in the body called vatta in ayurvedic language. I have felt my vatta getting worse many times with these substances. Also if you're naturally high in vatta and ingest things that will make vatta worse you can probably calculate that it is not the best idea. I have no idea what kind of body type you are - but according to what you wrote I recognized these symptoms. I had experienced the same 'frying' effect from LSD and had experienced a severe headache after my very strong pharma experience I had.

Not taking substances is of course a very good start - also it would be great to find a way to heal you nervous system. If you're willing you can look up ayurveda and find out which body type predominates in you. By finding that out you can get a better idea what's going on, what you should ingest and what you should not, etc.

It would be great to see if you really had THH and also LSD for that matter. These days many novel and unexplored lysergamides are floating around.

 

[EphemeralTruth]

The LSD was from a known and previously used batch, no issues there. It also resulted in the "mental" effects of LSD, but distinctly lacked the pleasurable portion of the sensation. Instead, it just felt like burning wires. Even sober, my ability to feel "joy" is quite subdued along with a dull ache in what feels like "underneath" my brain. I did at first think this was just my first "bad trip" as during the peak it is difficult to tell for sure. However, after a couple hours I was able to distinctly separate the burnt-out feeling from the tripping, and its intensity was directly proportional to how hard I was tripping. I did not realize there was any residual damage from the DMT trip so I don't think self-suggestion was at play--the separation between this feeling and the trip was quite clear.

I will PM Endlessness about the THH and report back here if we determine anything interesting. Has anyone used a supplement like Genius Joy?

@Triglav How long did it take you to recover? My experience with nerve damage is ~3 months, though I imagine serotonin receptors are somewhat different.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I’d advise against the supplements. For example, L-Dopa common side-effects: WebMD's A to Z Drug Database

Webmd, really dude? lol. Seriously though, i'm aware L-Dopa can have some side-effects for people, i however took 4 capsules of a Mucuna/L-Dopa supplement twice a day daily for 3 years, i had no side-effects and it was a great supplement, replenished my Dopamine for sure because even after i stopped taking it, i still feel a difference compared to how i felt beforehand, beforehand it felt like i was low in Dopamine and i had too much Serotonin, like Dopamine was way way in the background, Mucuna helped to balance things out and brought Dopamine more equal to the Serotonin, or more to the foreground. I have Autism, maybe i just respond differently to it? Idk. Though it's worth keeping in mind that L-Dopa is usually consumed with a Dopa Decarboxylase inhibitor when treating Parkinsons, i just took the Mucuna extract as is with no inhibitor, so that the L-Dopa would affect me more naturally, not sure if that lessened the side-effects or not. I've also taken it along with Syrian Rue, which worked well, though i'd generally take the Mucuna a couple hours before the Rue, and when i've taken it at the same time as the Rue it felt like the Mucuna got potentiated and the only side-effect i ever had from L-Dopa was an increase in heart rate if consumed at the same time as the Rue.

I'm not saying it's a completely safe supplement, but i do recommend that people try it out if they're interested, if they notice any side-effects, simply stop taking it. Alternatively, try Tyrosine, Tyrosine sucks though because it's rate-limited, but could still be helpful though i suppose.

As far as side-effects of L-Dopa go, idk why i never had any side-effects, could be it's safer than people think, or it could've had to do with my consumption of Limonene, or Alpha-Pinene, or my morning cup of Coffee, maybe Ibuprofen? But that's the only things i was taking alongside it, so idk maybe one of those things prevented it's side-effects? Simply put though, in the short term at least, L-Dopa supplementation is fine, i don't think they'd be selling it as a supplement if it was truly horrible, long term use from what i've read is when side-effects can start showing up, though please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[BecometheOther]

I wouldnt be so quick to jump to the conclusion that you "fried" your system. If you waited 2 weeks after the MDMA there should not be an interaction there and the MDMA should be gone from your system. Consider the possibility that you just had a less than stellar trip and your thoughts of something is fried could be paranoia...

What evidence is really there that this is serotonin syndrome?

 

[dragonrider]

If you believe that your biochemistry is off, i would VERY STRONGLY advice against just taking some supplement because some people on the internet said some positive things about it.
You could just as easily make your condition worse than it already was.

Especially when the supplements mentioned are known to often have serious side effects.

For now, the best advice i or anyone who's not a medical proffesional could offer is to not use any recreational or psychedelic drug for a while, including cannabis, to try to live a healthy life (a healthy diet, plenty of physical activity, some good sleep, etc), and, if the problem is realy bad or if it persists, to seek medical attention.

It is also wise, when it comes to diet, not to do very drastic things without having been tested for any deficiancies first, like eating only fruits, or only meat, etc.
A chemical imbalance or deficiancy in something could easily worsen when you start following a very onesided diet.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I of course am not suggesting anyone takes anything without doing some research first before coming to their own conclusions, however i am suggesting that some things are safer than some people think. The one's against L-Dopa supplementation, do you have personal experience with it, or are you just throwing out warnings due to reading about potential side-effects? Of course i am not a medical professional, but i am well researched and experienced and pretty intelligent when it comes to knowing about neurochemistry and neuroscience and such.

I think in this case, it may just be a case of overreacting/over-analyzing and possible paranoia, so supplementation with anything may not be warranted. With that said, if people are so concerned about potential side-effects, just go with the safer alternatives, like Tyrosine instead of L-Dopa/Mucuna. People supplement with 5-HTP all the time after taking MDMA, and yet when i've taken 5-HTP, it's given me more side-effects than Mucuna/L-Dopa ever has, particularly in the way of nausea and vomiting at a 50mg dosage. Tryptophan however, never gave me an issue.

All things have side-effects, including our beloved Harmalas and DMT, it all comes down to your own personal/unique neurochemistry and how one responds/reacts to things. I understand it's better to warrant on the side of caution and seriousness when it comes to consuming any kind of substance, and it is best to be cautious and safe than to be sorry, however i think the hate on L-Dopa is unwarranted, yes it may have some side-effects for some people, but L-Dopa is not something to be avoided out of fear. Heck i've even gotten flack for consuming essential oils like Lemon EO or pure Limonene/Alpha-Pinene or what not, because people believe all sorts of crap about consuming oils, never did me any harm whatsoever and provided quite a lot of benefits.

So yes, take my words with a grain of salt, and if you're that concerned, stop all drug use or go see a doctor. If you're smart enough to experiment around on your own like i do, you can make the call yourself about what to do and what to take rather than listening to anyone on the internet, even me. Me personally, i used to be on pretty much every psych med psychiatrists have at their disposal, until i took my health into my own hands and i for one have never been better or happier in life since i've done so. But that's me.

But seriously, don't hate on L-Dopa just because basic info on the net says it's horrible in terms of side-effects, we must take into consideration that L-Dopa is primarily consumed by those who have Parkinsons and that not only do they combine it with a Dopa Decarboxylase inhibitor, but Parkinsons is a neurodegenerative disease and would likely present with more side-effects due to L-Dopa consumption compared to otherwise healthy individuals supplementing with it as a natural precursor to Dopamine and Noradrenaline. I for one don't think it's horrible, or dangerous, or risky, i have plenty of experience with it and it's never given me personally an issue, i think it can actually be quite safe for supplemental use.

But with all that said, let's focus on the topic at hand rather than bashing a natural neurotransmitter precursor, shall we? I merely made a suggestion about something that has helped me with no side-effects to speak of, others may have different results, but at least i speak from a place of personal experience. I wouldn't suggest something to someone if i seriously thought it could be harmful. People are way too overly cautious imo, which caution is good, overly cautious not so much. I understand the need for harm reduction, but people just take things way too far imo. We should be honest with ourselves and each other about all this kinda stuff, not just tell people to avoid something because of x, y, z.

 

[dreamer042]

Of course i am not a medical professional

^ This

Please refrain from offering medical advice. Please refrain from arguing the point.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I was merely offering an opinion/suggestion, what the person decides to do is entirely up to them. I encourage people to do their own research, and decide for themselves what's right for them, if they're capable of doing so.

I for one encourage and welcome open discussion on many topics, i don't shy away from them or blanket it over with "go see a medical professional" or "we don't offer medical advice here". Imo there's room to talk about things like this in an open and positive yet intelligent and cautious manner, no one should ever take something at face value, but things should be able to be freely discussed imo. There's no harm in discussing something with the appropriate warnings/caveats imo.

But i understand this is the Nexus, and here there are rules against this or that for whatever reason, i just think there's nothing wrong with a little open minded discussion about things. We're supposed to be mature and responsible, right? I would think mature and responsible people would be able to talk about the body and mind (and soul/spirit) and all manner of things surrounding them without being limited/restrained from talking about specific areas like neurochemistry and supplementation and such.

With all that said, i really wanna know why people are against consuming L-Dopa, aside from looking it up and seeing a list of side-effects. Does anyone else here, besides me, have personal experience supplementing with it? Off-topic i know, but i'm curious, is there any good reason as to why we should avoid discussing L-Dopa on these forums? Just try to help me understand rather than assume i know why i shouldn't discuss such a thing. I could avoid recommending one consume it, but i can still ask people's opinions about it or talk about it, can't i?

One issue i think that could be solved here on the Nexus, is if people took more time explaining things rather than write something off with a blanket statement. Like how i put in the time and effort to explain things/type things down, i realize some people may not have the time to do so, but it would surely help people understand better if we layed things out in a more understandable way rather than simply saying "don't do that" or "you can't or shouldn't do that" or "it has side-effects".

We should be more open when it comes to discussing things, not shut something down without much of an actual explanation imo.

I mean, isn't it supposed to be common knowledge that people can supplement with 5-HTP after MDMA use? Why is it so wrong then, for one to discuss L-Dopa, but not 5-HTP?

I'm not trying to argue, i'm trying to discuss, there is a difference.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Besides all that, my original post had nothing to do with "my" recommendation, i said it's recommended to supplement with 5-HTP (or Tryptophan) after MDMA use, i included also L-Dopa (or Tyrosine) because people have also recommended it online as well. It would make sense to me, to supplement with precursors and replenish all 3 neurotransmitters, rather than just Serotonin, since MDMA releases (and can deplete) all 3 neurotransmitters, not just Serotonin.

And rather than going off about L-Dopa, which imo was unnecessary, one could've just stuck with Tyrosine. Like, why make all this fuss about one compound, when there's an alternative to that compound? That's what i don't get.

I mean do forgive me if i'm speaking out of line here, but L-Dopa shouldn't even be the main area of concern here, at least relating to my original post, my original point was that MDMA is known for depleting neurotransmitters, and it's common knowledge that one can supplement with precursors in order to speed up recovery and replenish those neurotransmitters. Of course, one could just wait a few weeks and see if things are replenished normally/naturally without the use of supplements, so that's an option too.

Getting back to my main post though, MDMA and neurotransmitters and precursors aside, Pharmahuasca will not deplete Serotonin.

 

[Sabnock1990]

And i feel it should be pointed out, that i never offered medical advice, i was speaking from my own experience and simply made a recommendation. I wasn't claiming it as medical advice, it was more so meant to be informative and recommending based on the community at large's recommendations of precursor supplementation after MDMA use.

So, i apologize if people took my words as medical advice, that was not my intention.

 

[Prima Materia]

Do visit a doctor if you feel things are out of hand, you feel bad and/or cannot function properly.

I agree with the mood the we don't give medical advice here and make definite claims about such things. I don't give any medical advice. However I do like to discuss different anecdotal experiences regarding such events and how anyone helped oneself.

Also I am not an ayurveda expert, but I do have some knowledge about it which I like to share on the forums or in the chat, mostly because I know how much I can help myself with it and how practical it is and therefore recommend to people facing certain issues to at least do some research about ayurveda for themselves and maybe discover a way how to help themselves and get a better understanding of what might be going on within the body.

EphemeralTruth wrote:

@Triglav How long did it take you to recover? My experience with nerve damage is ~3 months, though I imagine serotonin receptors are somewhat different.

I don't claim that I had nerve damage since I did not do any medical examination of my nerve system. But definitely I had felt like my nerves were on fire.

My experience with nerve damage is when I had shingles - however it damaged only the peripheral nerves in the skin in one area of the body. It took 2 months to fully recover from the damage. I had used the Lion's mane mushroom to help and regenerate those peripheral nerves faster since there is some research which shows that it helps in that regard. But the central nervous system is another thing, therefore I cannot say anything in that regard.

With what I experienced and was referring to before --> When I felt friend on LSD I recovered after the main effects wore off - so after 24 hours I was kinda back to normal. The severe headache (or rather migrane) I had from pharma developed in the night when in bed. I had the residues of this headache for the next day also. I had experienced severe headaches after the effects of mescaline wore off as well as with MDMA when I took it when I was already very tired.

Like I mentioned before this drugs do affect a force called vatta in ayurveda very strongly and disturebd vatta in the body can lead to such experiences that you had mentioned. If your vatta is already disturbed these drugs will worsen the condition.

I do agree that first thing you can do is to give you system a good rest, try to find out how you can nourish and how you can lubricate your nervous system. That should help a lot and not only for taking drugs but more importantly to live a healthy and good feeling daily life.

 

[EphemeralTruth]

I appreciate everyone's advice, but as far as supplementation goes, there's no need to argue. I am grateful for ideas but will certainly do my own due diligence on any supplement I decide to take.

I am mostly posting this because I want to find out if anyone else has done something like this from pharmahuasca. Prior to my experience, I wasn't aware this kind of injury was even possible.

While I understand the proclivity to blame my experience on paranoia, I assure you I am NOT prone to anxiety or paranoia, nor am I inexperienced enough to confuse the LSD trip experience with this burn-out feeling. It was absolutely separate, underlying, and I can still feel it (though to a much lesser degree sober).

I am 100% convinced the pharma experience is to blame, as it was this exact same "place" that felt like it was super-spotlighted during that experience. Since the harmine I took was already vetted, it MUST have been the THH powder that I also used. So, the question then becomes: What substance, combined with harmine, could damage serotonin receptors like this? My thought is some kind of SSRI might do it, but I lack expertise on this mechanism.

I really want to avoid doing this again and prevent anyone else from doing something similar, since these powders are readily available online and many new DMT users are unlikely to undertake the extensive harmala extraction process themselves. I only took 50mg of whatever they sent me as THH. Imagine if I'd taken 200mg of it!

 

[Sabnock1990]

Personally, i've taken 200mgs of THH 3 days in a row, everything was fine for me, though 200mgs did seem a little too strong, probably would've been better off with 150 to 180mgs personally. I took my THH with my Rue seed, i could tell it added some Serotonin reuptake inhibition, as i felt a bit more Serotonin than usual, but aside from that, didn't really notice too much. Even though i've only had THH a few times with my Rue, and haven't yet had it with DMT, i think i like my Rue just as it is. I have a good bit of THH to experiment around with, and in the time to come i plan on making my own, so i do plan on having enough to play around with and see what more of what it's about, but i don't think it's going to prove to be anything particularly special, for me anyways, Rue is good enough already for me personally.