How many types of Chacruna (besides Alba, Carthaginensis, Viridis) do we know about?

[Harlequin]

Hello friends everywhere!
I was wondering, specially amongst the most experienced people, and also to most of the people who actually grow the plants, who have daily contact with them in one way or another, be it in your way to work (along the roadsides), in your own garden (or farm), or whatever.


How many kinds of Chacruna do we have, besides the DMT containing "old ones", (the best known plants which are P. alba, P. carthaginensis, P. viridis)??


I am asking because this new friend of mine, whose also an Ayahuasquero, sent me some very odd Chacruna strains, very different from the ones most people seem to know.
By comparision with the plants I already know, I've found these new species not to contain any noticeable DMT, although it contains something else, or more than just one active.
BTW, these seem to be a bit more potent plant than the "old ones", given its dosage is lower.
I've managed to see some pictures of some of these plants, and although they're clearly in the Psychotria genus, their flowers suggested me something more towards P. colorata, which is the only active species I'm aware of, besides the DMT containing ones.

So, I realized there is a LOT of people brewing with different species, which are not DMT containing, I have not yet made any experiments, but I am very excited about this discovery.
The old man who sent me these is very sure, he is using "Viridis Caboclinha", but that is not what is known as Caboclinha in the general consensus. I realize he would probably become offended if I tried to tell him that he's material has absolutely no DMT (I don't mean to diminish it, just to state how little we know about it).

Recently I've been reading about other species, like Calliandra spp. (Bobinsana?), which seem to be active along with Caapi, but not on its own, and that tests failed to find actives there.
Therefore, I've been just trying to imagine, how many different, non DMT producing Psychotrias might be around? And what would the implications of it, besides one - Ayahuasca is something much more variable and multifaceted, not to say, even more mysterious than previously thought?

Has anyone here brewed with Psychotria colorata, or others, outside of the Viridis/Alba/Carthaginensis complex?

Thanks.

 

[quantumtantra]

Wow that's insane i'm studying this right now

Willing to make a tea from Bobinsana bark (Calliandra angustifolia but also surinamensis or fasciculata) + Psychotria carthagenensis

Also want to make Banisteriopsis muricata + Psychotria carthagenensis

Any thoughts on this?

 

[quantumtantra]

Two papers about Psychotrias

 

[Harlequin]

Wow that's insane i'm studying this right now

Willing to make a tea from Bobinsana bark (Calliandra angustifolia but also surinamensis or fasciculata) + Psychotria carthagenensis

Also want to make Banisteriopsis muricata + Psychotria carthagenensis

Any thoughts on this?

Wow, that was a quick reply QT! Thanks for the papers, I took a quick look, but they deserve a better reading.
You will be safe, as long as your plant IDs are good, Muricata and little Cartha works fine.
The only issue there is the harvest time, which is important, at least for the carthaginensis. It must be harvested at around sunset or dawn, only, there's a paper on it but I have little time right now, perhaps later on I'll share.
Carthaginensis is very well estabilished DMT Chacruna, many, many suns ago I made a paper chromatogram, compared to Viridis and Alba, all had the same signature.
Oh, and BTW, Carthaginensis is my favourite Chacruna, because it grows taller, faster and produces larger leaves which help a lot in the laborious harvesting/prep. work.
I've bred my own hybrids as well, but only among the DMT containing ones.

 

[quantumtantra]

About Calliandra spp., from old threads:

@Stochastic wrote:
I've found a few mentions of THH being found in Calliandra angustifolia and C. "pentandra" (which may no longer be a recognized species), but there are no mentions of this anywhere in the published English language scientific literature.

My personal contribution: I have worked with Calliandra haematocephala, one of the closest relatives of Calliandra angustifolia within the genus. In the past I have also used a THH/Harmine combination I semi-synthesized from a crude extract of P. harmala. To me, the effects of C. haematocephala are consistent with it containing THH. Many studies around the world have found it testing positive for alkaloids, but none have sought the identity of these alkaloids.

@Locoboy wrote:
Made another tincture with Bobinsana, more concentrated. I made sure to turn it in powdery form as much as possible this time using a blender (had gotten in big woody chunks in its raw form). 1 Ml of the tincture equals about 1 gram Bobinsana. I took 4 ml along with 4 grams Rue+1 gram 100:1 Caapi extract.

I have gotten used to the effects of Harmala alkaloids taking full doses for MAO-Inhibition for about 100 days now so i know about their "regular" effects. The sensation today was definitely different, more Zen-like. Interesting. I will continue using it with Syrian Rue+caapi as well. It makes no sense trying it alone with DMT in oral form because it does not inhibit MAO from what i saw searching the forum a bit.

@Pharmacognosis wrote:


One thing I wanted to add to this thread was that I recently bioassayed Bobinsana (Calliandra angustifolia) which is one of the very few plant sources of THH. I drank a tea of 5 grams bark powder steeped in boiling water, made like regular tea, no heat heavy extraction. During this experiment I was also MAO-A inhibited by 1 mg Methylene Blue, which I take everyday for anxiety/depression (although I'm switching back to afobazol for this purpose due to increased farsightedness and corneal toxicity worries).

Anyway Bobinsana contains only THH I believe, and I will say it was most definately active. My main purpose in the bioassay was to see if the plant had dmt/5-meo-dmt/bufo/etc. but there was no tryptamine psychedelia present. What did develop though was the most pleasant clearheaded serene betacarboline experience I have had. I have smoked caapi leaves and consumed the vine in tea, and have smoked and drank and eaten passionflower as well. This was clearly THH by tregar's description in this thread an elsewhere. I especially noted the 5ht1a agonism which I have much experience with having dosed Albizzia Silk Tree daily for depression, and experiences with 5-meo-mipt, oral 5-meo-dmt, and other plants on this research tangent. It was lovely, long lasting (i'm at 5 hours now, I drank it earlier today) which fits with tregar's 8 hour duration description, and I felt increased tactile pleasure (my furry blanket felt splendid!) strong antidepressant effect, an expanded more open headspace, definite energy flow up the spine and through the chakras like flowing water.

In short this is the most impressive non-hallucinogenic plant I have encountered and I hope to use it daily as an augmentation to my MAOI routine, which I am thinking it is used for in South America. When a brew needs more THH body/mindfeel I believe they would reach for this plant by my experience with it. Another added benefit is that if others have the same experience I have with this plant then extraction and isolation of THH from caapi might be unnecessary when whole plant Bobinsana appears to have it as the sole active chemical in considerable quantities.

The tea tasted delicious as well.

 

[quantumtantra]

Wow, that was a quick reply QT! Thanks for the papers, I took a quick look, but they deserve a better reading.
You will be safe, as long as your plant IDs are good, Muricata and little Cartha works fine.
The only issue there is the harvest time, which is important, at least for the carthaginensis. It must be harvested at around sunset or dawn, only, there's a paper on it but I have little time right now, perhaps later on I'll share.
Carthaginensis is very well estabilished DMT Chacruna, many, many suns ago I made a paper chromatogram, compared to Viridis and Alba, all had the same signature.
Oh, and BTW, Carthaginensis is my favourite Chacruna, because it grows taller, faster and produces larger leaves which help a lot in the laborious harvesting/prep. work.
I've bred my own hybrids as well, but only among the DMT containing ones.

Thanks a lot, which parts of Muricata do you use? How much in grams for each plant for a person? A friend knows a forest that has a lot of Psy cartha (loved this name), gonna try the Instant Ayahuasca Tek on it

 

[Harlequin]

I mean, on the "Cartha" harvest thing, actually the paper is on Viridis species, but it goes the same for the 'big trio' Viridis, Alba, and Carthaginensis.
In the end, I believe most plants have fluctuations in their content levels during the day and the year, but there are also other factors in play, such as the conditions where its been grown. I'd favor the ones that catch the most sun, and the most vigorous and tallest plants. Once you choose one motherplant, you know that one is a good one, I find they're most likely all the same, but who knows, there possibly might be a special little one here and there.

I've never used Muricata, but if I were to do so, I think would proceed just the same as with B. caapi, I guess. I mean, the stem, preferrably.
But I think I also should take a deeper look into it, just as to be sure.

 

[Harlequin]

Thanks a lot, which parts of Muricata do you use? How much in grams for each plant for a person? A friend knows a forest that has a lot of Psy cartha (loved this name), gonna try the Instant Ayahuasca Tek on it

Oh, man, I am sorry, but I must advise - pls, do not follow this tek. At least not like that.
The proportions he is using there, 40g vine, 15g MHRB, I find it poorly balanced. That is lot of MHRB, if you should try an extraction, do so but with only one plant at a time, for each batch will vary a great deal. Then you can find your own balance in the end, with whatever 'tek' that is.

 

[Harlequin]

Two papers about Psychotrias

quantumtantra - In reply to your great contribuition, I'm rivetted over here, my friend! Thank you so much!
There goes my 2 cents on this subject, there are a few other papers, but I'm short on time, stay tuned for more soon.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fig-2-Alkaloids-isolated-from-Psychotria-colorata-The-upper-and-lower-structures-are_fig2_228343999

 

[quantumtantra]

Therefore, I've been just trying to imagine, how many different, non DMT producing Psychotrias might be around? And what would the implications of it, besides one - Ayahuasca is something much more variable and multifaceted, not to say, even more mysterious than previously thought?

Has anyone here brewed with Psychotria colorata, or others, outside of the Viridis/Alba/Carthaginensis complex?

Thanks.

The paper below says there's approximately 1600 species in Psychotria genus

The Genus Psychotria: Phytochemistry, Chemotaxonomy, Ethnopharmacology and Biological Properties

 

[Harlequin]

Wow, thanks a lot for even more rivets! Thats gonna be my dessert tonight.
Yes, and I have only taken a quick look at the first pages, but indeed, the P. colorata complex seem to be influenced by the Paulicorea genus, according to the paper I added.

Sometimes I think that there must have been an "Ayahuasca" of the old world, there is Rue, and probably other Harmine/Haramans/B-carbolines sources, as well as possibly active plants that won't work alone, and that often will yield little to no results in the academic papers, and I wanna talk a little bit about the Academy thing.
I am very disappointed with the Academic world, at least, I don't feel much motivated to share or make any relevant papers in the University because the system is totally corrupted, and its already been proved by a very well known paper written about pure bullshit, and yet it got approved and was published because it corroborated with the system, and the values of the academy, therefore, that paper shows us that the academy is pure shit.
I never felt like I wanted to publish any of my material through them, and I am going to take it somewhere else, perhaps even to my drawer, because if there is something I fear, is to find out about a new species, and then, to see that species become a victim of people without consciousness, this is very serious, its already happening in Australia and Oz, the Acacias are being predated.
For what? Some very weak bark.

The cultivator told me to use a very odd proportion - 10:3 (or 10:3,5) caapi/chacrona.
That definitely is not enough for classic DMT complex Psychotrias.
I'm feeling like before I tried Ayahuasca for the first time, its awesome. I'm also wondering how would this friend react, if he would try the DMT psychotrias.
Imagine that all these persons, who only know these other species, getting to know the DMT ones?
I offered it to him, he didn't want, he think he knows it best. A bit of an ego, but humans have an egoistic nature, its hard to escape that in a way or another.

Back to the academic papers, many kudos for the people who actually manage to get something rivetting, the figures and little drawings help a lot (jk), but seriously, most of them are very flawed, some even do point that out, some don't recognize their own limitations. Its a shame I can find evidence of DMT in P. carthaginensis, but no one in no academy ever could. They're obviously not doing any homework. Is the academy actually good, and it is trying to protect the species? I don't think so.

Sorry for the rant, it was another long, noisy, daaay. Thanks again for the paper! This is good stuff.

 

[quantumtantra]

Yeah totally agree with you, and theres the point where the papers don’t use the same methodology at least with chromatography

Best regards

 

[Harlequin]

Thats because there are infinite ways to do chromatography, the HPLC machines are very flexible, with so many different variables one must first try to figure out the best approach as to get a meaningful result. The reason is because one single SOP would not be efficient for all things, therefore they're always created as needed, hence the big mess, I believe.

Interesting that you mention that, I believe there are a few things that should be top priority for the people who make research, be it academic or anything, first off, to learn about the circadian cycles of the plant, as to know if there is a best harvest window for example.
Thats the first thing. Second, many of them are done only by working with seedlings in artificial conditions, and not mature plants neither in real life conditions. I mean, its very valid, the scientific spirit is great, but is it meaningful in real life conditions?

Saludos!

 

[quantumtantra]

@Harlequin I have access to a GC-MS there's a more favourable approach to investigate the psychotrias?

 

[Harlequin]

Sounds great! PM me pls.

TBH, I asked for 3 strains, but the producer is a bit unsure of what strain or strains actually came to me, except for the nameless "Yellow" one, which is a very odd looking plant, with a different kind of infloresence, and either "Cabocla" (which is not the same classic viridis "Caboclinha"), and/or "Jaguars Ear", hope it sounds familiar to someone.

I put one crushed dried leaf of the Yellow one along with a little proper cereal alcohol, and under the black light, results suprised me.
At first, instead of the greenish luminesence I would have gotten with the regular ones - that means - the DMT containing Psychotria species (alba, carthaginensis, viridis), at first there was this ochre luminesence effect, similar to a non decarbed cannabis extract, after hours I came to check, under the light with a small agitation, it has turned red, arterial blood red.

Just can't wait to do it with some more leaves, actually I've been taking a better look at the different shapes, and its possible that there's more than just one species here, for one of them has a leaf with 'many ribs', and the other has more of a Caboclinha like shape, except the leaves are much larger, and darker. As well as with one of the "regular ones".

Maybe the only constant is that the more one learns, the more one finds about the less one knows.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to brew with it, but I'm going to make a very careful experiment on my next caldron.