Is an Aya experience the same as a Pharma experience?

[christian]

You are projecting too much imo, christian, seem like a lot of prejudices and arbitrary subjective associations there.

Yea, i'll shut up. Looks like my sense of humour isn't always understood here! :lol:

 

[universecannon]

You are projecting too much imo, christian, seem like a lot of prejudices and arbitrary subjective associations there.

Yea, i'll shut up. Looks like my sense of humour isn't always understood here! :lol:

what endlessness said still seems to apply to all of your other posts regardless

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

I dunno, upon thinking about it... Pharma is absolutely great. You have to find the sweet spot - too little and you have to boost it and too much and it's really strong and somewhat oppressive and CAN BE vindictive as hell. But so can ayahuasca or rue-based brews, my single worst oral DMT experience was with way too much chaliponga with harmala. Then again from pharma (or whatever one calls FB DMT with raw harmala) I've had extreme terror that I would somehow become inextricable melded into a very insistent white-light lace-pattern...
So I guess we should just all keep in mind that all forms of DMT have a potential to be terrifying!
I'm starting to think that it is just part of how the medicine works... if you can cope with the difficult it is one of the most effective spiritual medicines but it can be hell as well as heaven.

As for the semantics... gah, I just call "pharma" oral DMT that has been extracted into crystalline (or other non-aqueous) form. I drop the "huasca" and will do so until I use FB DMT with either caapi tea or full-spectrum caapi extract.

 

[rahlii]

Then why not then just brew up some Ayahuasca?..

Really i don't understand the point of going to the hassle of extracting Caapi alks from homegrown vine, or dmt fumerate from home grown Chakruna in order to make a pharmahuasca??

In actual fact i doubt it's Pharmahuasca, it sounds more like it's Ayahuasca cos it contains Caapi extracted Alks, like Aya does anyway. People usually make Pharma cos it's quick and easy to prepare, and cos they don't have any Caapi to hand. To me, it doesn't make sense what you are doing.

Surely the problem with this is not just that it seems like a step backwards. Surely extracted stuff like this also misses out other important components that make for a fuller experience?? So you'd rather make life hard for yourself to have some extracts that potentially can offer a lesser experience?? :?:
Why do this when you can instead brew full spectrum Ayahuasca and store it on sterile jars. Apparently it lasts for ages as others have said??.

The reason that I and I guess many others folk are here at the Nexus is to learn for ourselves the hard way. Do the research, the teks, undergo the experience, share and compare. "Learn, Share and Expand" is the current Nexus motto.

Having done this work I can now help with the forward evolution of these substances to create a safe effective environment for the use of these substances in our modern world. Pharma is and will continue to be part of this knowledge so I felt I must inform myself first hand of her potential. And I'll be the first to admit that I still have much work to do until I discover the real potential of the pharma experience.

Happy travels.

 

[christian]

what endlessness said still seems to apply to all of your other posts regardless

What do you mean, please explain. Also, i don't really understand what all those big words meant anyhow?

The reason that I and I guess many others folk are here at the Nexus is to learn for ourselves the hard way. Do the research, the teks, undergo the experience, share and compare. "Learn, Share and Expand" is the current Nexus motto.

This is true. However, what really is a pain is the same old stuff being repeated. There is a lot of basic facts already explained and stickied, and people seems to ignore all this cos they can't be bothered to do a bit of research for themselves. I'm sure i've read countless difference between Aya and Pharma posts already. That means we are not really learning but explaining what is already written for some that don't read and going around in circles. I see this about shrooms and other stuff. People going on about how to smoke dmt. It get's quite annoying to see all these silly new threads posting. I'm all for learning, sharing, expanding....but at the same time ....

Pharma is and will continue to be part of this knowledge so I felt I must inform myself first hand of her potential. And I'll be the first to admit that I still have much work to do until I discover the real potential of the pharma experience.

I think this is great. Do what you want to do. It's really up to you/ your choice. Personally after my Aya experience in Peru, i would choose Caapi and Chakruna for learning, and would not even think about Pharmahuasca or anahuasca. I would also look into doing a dieta of some sort to cleanse my body and mind of rubbish i don't really need so that i could focus my energy on the Ayahuasca experience. Because without that focus a lot is missed as far as i'm concerned. What i realised was that doing Ayahuasca is a journey, and not a journey to experiment with different concoctions, but to find a suitable medicine, and work with that one. Certainly it's fun to experiment with this or that, but to me Ayahuasca territory is about working with something that you have an understanding of in order to make breakthroughs.

 

[endlessness]

It seems from my perspective you are biased towards on mode of ingestion and you make these moral judgement and project on the choices others make. Like aya is the traditional way and its good. But yeah, there are indigenous that chew caapi, why dont you do that instead? Why purify it by using a solvent such as water and separating only the polar molecules, as a brew? Or why use heat in a brew?

Also this all goes into an "appeal to tradition" fallacy.

If you dont like one way of ingestion, if you preffer a certain crude extraction versus another more purified for your own use, thats fine, but understand this doesnt mean its the right way for all, or more complete or more meaningful or more spiritual or whatever else. Its just one way which personally suits you in that given moment.

And christian, if you are bored with old threads, create new ones yourself! Expand horizons! Who's preventing you from being a moving engine in this community?

 

[christian]

It seems from my perspective you are biased towards on mode of ingestion and you make these moral judgement and project on the choices others make. Like aya is the traditional way and its good.

Well, i suppose i might have added my own personal thoughts a couple of times, and why not. I mean i post like i talk in real life.
I reply to comments, and add my own thoughts, and then people can decide for themselves. To me this is simply choice. I'm not morally saying Traditional Ayahuasca is best, but i will say that Ayahuasca used in a Traditional ceremony is, and that's cos i did one. The icaros really make a big difference IMO.
In terms of me thinking that Caapi and Chakruna prepared traditionally rocks, then that would be because i'm all in favour of extracting all the goodness, and not really into these pure isolates. Of course that's my views, and i'm not forcing anyone to believe what i think.
8)

 

[tetra]

what really is a pain is the same old stuff being repeated. There is a lot of basic facts already explained and stickied, and people seems to ignore all this cos they can't be bothered to do a bit of research for themselves.

Yes, but old knowledge can be expanded upon as new people join and bring what they've learned to the table. It may seem lazy to read yet another thread asking if they've had a true breakthrough, or whatever, however, a new thread on an old topic, presented from a new point of view, brings new points of view to the vast tapestry that is the Nexus.

 

[Ambivalent]

i will just say i have never tried traditional Ayahuasca brew. i have only smoked freebase dmt and it changed the way i perceive things forever.

i am way more aware about many things among which is awareness of my own ego and its mechanics, and i think it only helped me to emotionally grow..

so i guess, freebase had its own magic on me

and sorry guys for my bad english, I'm trying..


g night from the balkans

 

[jamie]

"To me this is simply choice. I'm not morally saying Traditional Ayahuasca is best, but i will say that Ayahuasca used in a Traditional ceremony is, and that's cos i did one. The icaros really make a big difference IMO."

Hoe much real experience do you have with ayahuasca?

Also do you have significant real world experience with analogue brews like harmala and mimosa? Have you ever attempted to work with rue in the same one you would approach caapi?

I have heard all of this 100 times over, and I believed it at one point. Later I just realized it was all bs. Maybe that is me I dont know. Rue and mimosa are for me just as much about learning as traditional ayahuasca is..and I sometimes prefer to use rue. Pharma however was something that did not impress me so much but again that was with manske harmalas and DMT fumerate(which made me feel poisoned btw) so not full spectrum and I only bothered to try a few times.

I have drunk ayahuasa over 100 times, and I might have had full rue brews 40-50 times or so by now..and it is just my experience but the idea that ayahuasca is superior is just not true at all.

 

[rahlii]

Personally after my Aya experience in Peru, i would choose Caapi and Chakruna for learning, and would not even think about Pharmahuasca or anahuasca. I would also look into doing a dieta of some sort to cleanse my body and mind of rubbish i don't really need so that i could focus my energy on the Ayahuasca experience. Because without that focus a lot is missed as far as i'm concerned.

This is definitely on my list of things to do. But presently with both work and family commitments it is on hold for a little while yet.

What i realised was that doing Ayahuasca is a journey, and not a journey to experiment with different concoctions, but to find a suitable medicine, and work with that one. Certainly it's fun to experiment with this or that, but to me Ayahuasca territory is about working with something that you have an understanding of in order to make breakthroughs.

Good to hear you have found what works for you and what doesn't work. Sounds like we are on the same journey.

 

[christian]

i will say that Ayahuasca used in a Traditional ceremony is, and that's cos i did one. The icaros really make a big difference IMO."

Hoe much real experience do you have with ayahuasca?

I've only tried Aya four times in Peru. I say i prefer the idea of a Traditional brew simply because given the choice of ordering stuff i would choose the traditional ingredients over the modern ones. This would be because i would rather work with established medicine that works and don't see the point in changing something tha not only works very well but is reputed to be actually more medicinal than the newer types, with the purge, etc.
I really think that one could drink Ayahuasca 100's of times alone, but this is not the same as with a Shaman in a Guided ceremony with Mapacho, etc. I am so glad that i did this and was actually gonna drink alone just to save money. After taking Ayahuasca like i did i can say that it took on a far, far greater meaning, and was a completely different experience than would be stuck indoors alone listening to some music or whatever. It really is a social thing. Now i cringe at the thought of people taking Ayahuasca or whatever alone like this, it misses a lot. Peruvian people would never dream of taking Ayahuasca alone, ever!

Rue and mimosa are for me just as much about learning as traditional ayahuasca is..and I sometimes prefer to use rue.

I've already stated my reasons why i'd choose Ayahuasca over pharmahuasca or anahuasca. It's not so much cos i'm into keeping up tradition as much as i think it is best. Quite simply put, if i could order Caapi and Chakruna just as easily as rue and mimosa, then i'll order the former, it's easy and just requires long boils instead. The Caapi is reputed to be more "guiding" than Rue, and is responsible for the purge which may be a more medicinal type of purge than that of rue. Sure some of you like to argue to death about that. Me, i don't have an issue with accepting a majority thought that the traditional brew has better things in it's favor, and i wouldn't limit myself just for the sake of a few dollars.

I have drunk ayahuasa over 100 times, and I might have had full rue brews 40-50 times or so by now..and it is just my experience but the idea that ayahuasca is superior is just not true at all.

With Pharmahuasca you've gotta make extracts or buy from others who you have then to trust qualitywise. With anahuasca you've got Mimosa tannins to deal with, etc.... Really the choice is yours..Whatever makes sense to you. Remember it's your life and your choice.
However i must say, if i wanted to try an easier Aya type preperation or couldn't get hold of Caapi, then i would also aim for rue and Mimosa over the idea of pharma anyday. But that's just my choice. Surely Jamie you must have found some differences between Caapi and the rue brews, like many other people do. Are you saying that the "earthy grounded type guided Caapi experience" is the same as rue..Elaborate please.

 

[Bancopuma]

In my experience I have found ayahuasca and pharma to be pretty different experiences. We've got to remember we are all individuals and react differently to things. I have used moclobemide, caapi and Syrian rue as MOAI's with freebase DMT extracted from mimosa and they all have profound differences for starters.

I know we're comparing the brewed plants with extracted alkaloids, but a quick word on moclobemide...it is not a guide, unlike caapi or rue. This is good in a sense if you want to experience the pure nature of the DMT, but from a few experiences with this I can't say I have any interest really in using this again, I MUCH prefer having those guiding plants to ground the experience...if you take too much DMT with mocolbemide it can induce sheer psychedelic terror and choas. Not as useful or anywhere near as healing as the plants IME.

I have experienced states of acute anxiety and terror on pharma that I have never come close to ever experiencing on ayahuasca. Maybe this is simply down to the different MOAI/DMT ratios in my pharma concoctions compared to ayahuasca. But I can depend on ayahuasca to be a more grounded and gentle experience, less chance of encountering major turbulence, particularly on the way up. Unlike other peope on these boards, on rue I can NEVER purge. I can get sick to my stomach and be hugging the toilet and feel wretched but can never purge. I don't like this about rue. One time I took rue and caapi together before a capsule of freebase DMT...this heavily backfired in some ways...the caapi and the rue seemed to hate each other and seemed angry at me for ingesting the both of them...the caapi was wanting me to purge, and I was really wanting to purge, but the rue stopped this from happening and the DMT kept building and building in terrible intensity (and the trip started very suddenly, like a light switch being flicked on). if anything, for me, rue is an anti purgative! I like caapi because I can absolutely depend on it to induce a nice deep cleansing purge, and this also acts as a safety net and acts as a buffer against one getting the terrors and getting in over their head. I have a lot of respect for rue, but caapi just feels so much more cleansing to me in whatever form it comes in. And I'm not strictly anti rue by any means and plan on using it again in the future. All the freebase DMT I used was mimosa extract. I remember another experience where the feeling of the DMT was that I could 'feel' it was an extract, if that makes sense, it didn't feel quite right. So my preference would be for an ayahuasca brew for sure...although the preparation of these is definitely trickier and is more of an art form.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

I must point out one overhwelming fact, from a scientific/exploration viewpoint, that pharma has in it's favor.

Can you tell me with any degree of certainty each and every psychoactive substance you consumed and how much of each, to obtain the state you did with aya brew?

When I have an experience, I want to reliably reproduce it (to the degree allowed by set/setting), and to have an idea what to expect if I take X mg instead of Y mg.

I'll always favor measurable quantities over unmeasurable ones. Least with just the substance, worst that can happen is taking less than intended due to impurities (assuming non-active impurities).

With raw plant matter... you have no clue how much you're taking, except a statistical average based on analysis performed by researchers doing... an extraction/purification.

 

[jamie]

"Surely Jamie you must have found some differences between Caapi and the rue brews, like many other people do. Are you saying that the "earthy grounded type guided Caapi experience" is the same as rue..Elaborate please."

No there are some minor differences. The differences some people talk about I dont experience though. Rue does not make me any sicker, the purge is not any harder and I do not feel less guided at all or earthy. The second time I had rue was after drinking ayahuasca many times already and having a bias towards rue based on things I read and not knowing proper doses etc the first time. When I took it that second time I really could not tell it apart from caapi at all, other than it tastes different.

Minxx was the same way. She had never taken rue when we met and believed all this stuff she read about it from other people on the ayahuasca forums and had a bias towards it. She was very experienced with ayahuasca already. After she drank rue once she changed her mind completely about it.

I know someone who drank in brazil in ceremony once who was interested in drinking here. He came and drank rue, mimosa and chaliponga with us..and said he had a deeper experience here with us than he did drinking traditional ayahuasca in brazil..that experience made him want to go back to brazil and he did a few montsh back to work more with ayahuasca there and now he is back here working with a rue and mimosa again along with ayahuasca.

What are the differences? Well, thats hard to say realy because I have had all different kinds of ayahuasca..just like rue is not always the exact same alkaloid profile..rue can be very dreamy and visionary..some people say rue is more psychedelic or visionary than caapi but I dunno about that...sometimes rue is more sedating..then again sometimes caapi is more sedating..hard to really compare them against each other this way because there are far more similarities than differences.

Rue also has a long history of use..maybe longer than ayahuasca even does...there is also a lot of tannins in caapi to deal with just as there is a lot of them in mimosa..

Not everyone in peru just drinks in traditional ceremonies either. My friend had other friends there who do drink outside of ceremonies etc..I think you are projecting alot of stuff here christian that is not all a true reflection of the reality of the situation.

I also find the idea that traditioanl ceremonies are better a somewhat shallow notion. I think creating something that is relevent to us here and now in the world we live in, in modern society is in a way far more powerful and profound than going off to pretend you live in the jungle book or something. Im not saying I would not want to drink in a traditional setting as well, but in reality the medicine is the medicine and you dont need anything else.

So you dont have any real experience with rue and mimosa? Well then sorry but I just cant really take your words on it here at face value because they come from someone with no real experience in the area. I dont know what else to say about that. You have very little experience with ayahuasca, no experience with analogues yet you have a build up a wide variety of assumptions here.

These days a lot of my brews contain caapi, rue, mimosa and chaliponga.

 

[jamie]

bancopuma, did you always brew your rue or cap it? I have never eaten rue and never will becasue I can see that for sure blocking a purge for me..same with if I ate caapi powder. For me I have had long nights with caapi trying to purge with no results..and other days the purge just comes really easy..it has never really been any different with rue for me..but I always brew my rue into a tea and filter it well.

 

[soulfood]

This thread confuses me, mainly because any DMT based concoction is straight up psychedelic roulette.

The point being that I don't think I've ever had two ayahuasca experiences that were even the same. I can tell you the best experience I had came from one particular vine... well I had two journeys with that same vine and they were both spectacular. Any vine I've had since then has not deliver'd the same journey of light and euphoria, although very interesting they were indeed.

But some vine seems to have a very similar profile to rue and I believe the analysis peroformed by members of this forum back that up.

Let it be noted that the same applies to rue. I have performed isolation extractions on this plant and have had batches both either completely lacking all but traces of harmine and lots of harmaline and vica versa all the way across to board with 50/50 content in the middle.

Needless to say though I dont really put ayahuasca on any kind of pedestal over rue in general.

It always awesome though, no matter which plants/substances I travel with

 

[universecannon]

This would be because i would rather work with established medicine that works and don't see the point in changing something tha not only works very well but is reputed to be actually more medicinal than the newer types, with the purge, etc.

You keep projecting soooo much and yet you have almost no experience with these things. i don't get it. Why?

I don't understand why you don't believe that pharma and rue definitely can make people purge. The internet is filled with reports. How many times have you taken pharma? And rue? IME pharma isn't as smooth of a purge, but it is a purge. And the rue purge is almost indistinguishable from the aya purge for me. Not that this applies to all folks though

I really think that one could drink Ayahuasca 100's of times alone, but this is not the same as with a Shaman in a Guided ceremony with Mapacho, etc. I am so glad that i did this and was actually gonna drink alone just to save money. After taking Ayahuasca like i did i can say that it took on a far, far greater meaning, and was a completely different experience than would be stuck indoors alone listening to some music or whatever. It really is a social thing. Now i cringe at the thought of people taking Ayahuasca or whatever alone like this, it misses a lot.

Peruvian people would never dream of taking Ayahuasca alone, ever!

How could you honestly conclude this without ever taking aya alone?? Many westerners do they're own ceremonies in they're own homes with icaros, mapacho, etc etc. Some meditate in silent darkness the whole time. Some ayahuasca groups in SA take coca or alcohol or have orgies while under the influence, is that more valid than a solo trip as well? people romantisize too much about traditional brews i think

You can build your own relationship with this. we're not all just helpless puppies who need a shaman to guide us. i'm not saying there isn't any merit to the traditional ways, because i would love to be able to drink in a jungle setting with some shamans, but thats just not in the cards at the moment, and my relationship with the vine is fine without it

And MANY peruvians, shamans or not, have drank ayahuasca alone. Your projecting again by thinking none ever do.

I've already stated my reasons why i'd choose Ayahuasca over pharmahuasca or anahuasca. It's not so much cos i'm into keeping up tradition as much as i think it is best. Quite simply put, if i could order Caapi and Chakruna just as easily as rue and mimosa, then i'll order the former, it's easy and just requires long boils instead. The Caapi is reputed to be more "guiding" than Rue, and is responsible for the purge which may be a more medicinal type of purge than that of rue. Sure some of you like to argue to death about that. Me, i don't have an issue with accepting a majority thought that the traditional brew has better things in it's favor, and i wouldn't limit myself just for the sake of a few dollars.

But how much experience do you actually have with rue? People purge on it all the time, and to say one is more healing or guiding or whatever than the other by just accepting majority opinion and not being there yourself is sort of meaningless. even with a lot of experience, it can be subjective anyways and each experience is so different..so to project your experience onto the majority might be inaccurate as well. And as has been said; rue has been used for a loonngg time

I've taken rue in decent doses probably close to 200 times, that includes brews and fb harmalas. And, for me at least, after many experiences and reading many reports, i think many just have a negative bias towards it. Sure everyones different and processes these things differently, and some might not really get along with it, but it seems to be a consistent trend that those who begin to work with it more and open up to it change they're minds about it. I even found that i'm often more comfortable at the deep eye-open visionary level with rue-only brews than i am with aya-only brews

 

[christian]

Not everyone in peru just drinks in traditional ceremonies either. My friend had other friends there who do drink outside of ceremonies etc..I think you are projecting alot of stuff here christian that is not all a true reflection of the reality of the situation.

Of course not everyone in Peru drinks in a ceremony. But from everyone i spoke to, they would very much be either Gringos, or 'oddball' Peruvians. Especially when the local cost of a ceremony is extremely cheap...like us$5-8.
I think you like to copy and paste Endlessness's big words here. I don't think what you say can be trusted with your 100 plus Aya sessions either. I'll give you an example of this (below), from another poster!

I also find the idea that traditioanl ceremonies are better a somewhat shallow notion, but in reality the medicine is the medicine and you dont need anything else.

Incorrect, and potentially dangerous information. Ayahuasca is not the medicine. Ayahuasca is used in Ceremonies by shamen to diagnose illness, find out where to "suck it out", and for the shaman to learn the right medicine to use as a cure. Drinking Ayahuasca is not the cure in any sense of the word, it is simply a diagnostic tool. This is extremely simple and basic knowledge, and i'm surprised you said what you did with all that 100+ of Aya and Pharma experiences under your belt of knowledge.

So you dont have any real experience with rue and mimosa? Well then sorry but I just cant really take your words on it here at face value because they come from someone with no real experience in the area.

Jamie, remember that the FIRST thing i stated in my first post was how little i knew about Ayahuasca, etc. But i did my best to make the best of what other people have generally stated. Since you can't take my word for rue and mimosa, or trust what i read from other peoples posts, i'll leave you with what an above poster has just said. Funnily enough he shares my point of view, which is the same point of view i have read counless times in countless posts from other people.

Banco very nicely commented along the lines of a lot of other reports:

I have experienced states of acute anxiety and terror on pharma that I have never come close to ever experiencing on ayahuasca. Maybe this is simply down to the different MOAI/DMT ratios in my pharma concoctions compared to ayahuasca. But I can depend on ayahuasca to be a more grounded and gentle experience, less chance of encountering major turbulence, particularly on the way up. Unlike other peope on these boards, on rue I can NEVER purge. I can get sick to my stomach and be hugging the toilet and feel wretched but can never purge. I don't like this about rue. One time I took rue and caapi together before a capsule of freebase DMT...this heavily backfired in some ways...the caapi and the rue seemed to hate each other and seemed angry at me for ingesting the both of them...the caapi was wanting me to purge, and I was really wanting to purge, but the rue stopped this from happening and the DMT kept building and building in terrible intensity (and the trip started very suddenly, like a light switch being flicked on). if anything, for me, rue is an anti purgative! I like caapi because I can absolutely depend on it to induce a nice deep cleansing purge, and this also acts as a safety net and acts as a buffer against one getting the terrors and getting in over their head. I have a lot of respect for rue, but caapi just feels so much more cleansing to me in whatever form it comes in. And I'm not strictly anti rue by any means and plan on using it again in the future.

Bancopuma, thanks for what you wrote. I did my best to explain pretty much what you and ( as i read many others indeed tend to experience), on page 1 of this thread. Unfortunately i've been supposedly "projecting" too much. I think the "fab 3" love that word too much, over and out! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[soulfood]

Christian,

I hate mosquito's

Where do I go from here?