Is safrole psychedelic?

[Ginkgo]

I don't think the change from safrole to MDA happens, and I also doubt elemicin is forming TMA.

Yeah, that is what my intellect tells me too. But it also tells me that elemicin can't be hallucinogenic as is. It just can't happen. So the amination of allylbenzenes theory is the only thing that comes to mind. It may be that safrole for some reason does not undergo the amination, perhaps the enzyme responsible for the action is very picky on what it converts.

 

[lyserge]

Just to add a quick report; yesterday I dropped 15 drops therapeutic grade elemi into my mouth, around 4:30 PM. I was still feeling the after-effects of the previous day's Peruvian Torch + Caapi beverage, but within an hour the elemi oil took effect. The effects came on rather quickly, and lasted approximately 2 hours, then subsided as quickly and subtly as they arrived. The strongest moment came during a yoga class, when I looked out the window at a tree, swaying in the wind and digging the brilliant sunshine. I felt connected with the tree, on a mental level, from the inside - almost as if my mind had expanded well outside of my body, and became inside the tree as well as inside of me. This feeling is hard to describe but I've consistently felt it with cactus drink as well.

There was a distinct difference between this feeling and the one of mescaline + Torch alkaloids. With mescaline/Torch I'm overcome with the "beauty of the suchness of being", to paraphrase Dr. Shulgin's description. With the elemi oil the connection with the trees and flowers was very intellectual, as if I could feel, from the inside, the computer-like mental processes holding them together. In PIHKAL (or perhaps an interview) Dr. Shulgin described the effects of one of his creations in exactly this way, only much more precisely. Unfortunately, despite a lenghty search of the pages of PIHKAL, I can't find the passage which so perfectly the describes the distinction between the effects of mescaline/Torch and this. There was also a speedy, amphetamine-like tinge to the mental effects of the elemi oil, reminiscent of a similar effect of 2C-B but something I haven't felt with mescaline/Torch.

On Saturday I'll be trying the elemi oil once more, this time with probably 23 drops mixed into a small amount of Blue Agave Nectar. Cheers for the suggestions everyone, and sorry I can't contribute to the chemistry side of the investigation.

 

[pau]

Torch plus caapi? Would love to hear about it!

 

[69ron]

Lysergify, cool report.

There is definitely something unique to Elemi oil that I can’t quite put my finger on. It’s got mental psychedelic effects like what you mentioned, and they seem somehow unique to Elemi oil, unlike mescaline, but also unlike LSD. LSD’s mental psychedelic effects are the closest to its mental psychedelic that I can think of, but even that is quite different. I can’t think of any with the exact same mental psychedelic effects of Elemi oil. But that part of it’s effect is definitely miles away from mescaline.

The similarities between Elemi oil and mescaline for SWIM are the following:

* Very similar bodily effects
* Very similar euphoria
* Similar positive effect on social interaction
* It’s very slightly empathogenic, but much less than mescaline

SWIM can’t comment on the visuals much because he hasn’t taken a dose strong enough for much visuals.

The differences between Elemi oil and mescaline for SWIM are the following:

* It lacks the soft smooth drifty effect of mescaline (I don’t know how to better describe this)
* It feels more like a stimulant
* It has more effect on the mind, more like LSD in that way, but still unique

The effects it has on the mind are more akin to LSD than mescaline, but SWIM finds most of the other effects are more like mescaline.

Mescaline has a couple of very unique qualities that nothing else really has. There’s a smooth, soft, water-like flowing effect to the experience, as if things are blending together. It’s very unique to mescaline. LSD has a similar type of effect but its more warped, more like a melting effect. It’s hard to put into words exactly, but Elemi oil seems to lack this. But maybe at a higher dose it has this effect.

Because SWIM has not reached a full on dose with Elemi oil it’s still hard to really pin down just what exactly Elemi oil is. One thing is certain; it feels NOTHING like a typical tryptamine to SWIM. It’s similar to mescaline and LSD (LSD is both a tryptamine and a phenethylamine), but not at all like DMT, psilocybin, etc. The only tryptamine that shares something with Elemi oil is 5-MeO-DMT, which has a body feel with euphoria that is similar to mescaline, which is pretty much the same as Elemi oil, but other than that, the other major effects of 5-MeO-DMT are totally different.

 

[69ron]

I don't think the change from safrole to MDA happens, and I also doubt elemicin is forming TMA.

Yeah, that is what my intellect tells me too. But it also tells me that elemicin can't be hallucinogenic as is. It just can't happen. So the amination of allylbenzenes theory is the only thing that comes to mind. It may be that safrole for some reason does not undergo the amination, perhaps the enzyme responsible for the action is very picky on what it converts.

We can go back and forth on this one and never know until proper research is done. Safrole and sassafras oil don't seem to be very psychoactive. They are, but its mild and mostly sedating. MDA is defined as a psychedelic stimulant, more psychedelic than MDMA, more stimulating, and less of an empathogen.

Being one who loves sassafras tea, I can say I've never felt any stimulation from it at all from untreated tea. However, I have felt mild sedation and had very slight color enhancement, and very slight empathogenic effect from it. So it is very slightly similar to MDA, but extremely weak, with the main effect being sedation. But if you wash the sassafras with MEK, which removes most of the safrole (safrole is extremely soluble in MEK), then you get affects that are mildly psychedelic, and stimulating, without the empathogenic effects. I don't know what remains in the sassafras that is active, but my gut feeling is that its the alkaloid cinnamolaurine, which has the chemical structure like that of a psychedelic.

Also, another thing that makes me not believe that amination theory is calamus oil. It primarily contains asarone which should by that theory form TMA-2, and while's it's very slightly psychoactive, it's primarily sedating like safrole and causes very severe nausea. It's hardly something I'd call psychedelic and nothing remotely like TMA-2 in its effects.

I think certain strains of calamus, like sassafras, can be psychedelic, but the effects are caused by something unknown in these plants, not safrole or asarone. SWIM found calamus washed with acetone was more psychedelic than normal calamus. Washing with acetone would remove most of the asarone.

Most of these oils do nothing interesting. The only ones that do that I know of are elemicin and myristicin.

 

[Ginkgo]

Also, another thing that makes me not believe that amination theory is calamus oil. It primarily contains asarone which should by that theory form TMA-2, and while's it's very slightly psychoactive, it's primarily sedating like safrole and causes very severe nausea. It's hardly something I'd call psychedelic and nothing remotely like TMA-2 in its effects.

No, that is not correct. Alpha- and beta-asarone should not undergo amination, as they aren't allyls. Alpha- and beta-asarone are propenyls. Amination will not happen with propenyls, only with allyls. Gamma-asarone is an allyl, so amination might happen with that. Calamus oil have some gamma-asarone in it, which I think is the hallucinogenic compound there. Calamus is hallucinogenic, that is beyond doubt. But the alpha- and beta-asarone is sedating and causes nausea.

 

[pau]

SWIM's 6 drop report:
6 drops therapeutic grade essential elemi oil dilute in water, down the hatch.
During next half hour, SWIM had a little coffee, and half of a small apple.
(admittedly, SWIM would not have eaten an apple 30 min after San Pedro brew)
3 hours later: nothing out of the ordinary going on.
3-1/2 hours later: fall asleep in front of TV.
6-1/2 hours later: wake up, turn off TV (this happens alot in SWIM's household, evidently).
9-1/2 hours later: SWIM uncharacteristically sleeping very deeply, had to be shaken awake to get to work on time.
However, SWIM feels great next day, and no apparent effects.

SWIM thinks after further research that it will try same experiment with 11 drops, and no apple.

Hoping somebody figures out the elemi mystery soon...it is fascinating history in the making.

 

[rOm]

Just a question, SWIM will recieve tomorrow a bottle of elemi oil. However, while shopping his other ethnobotanicals he found elemi resin, it was inexpensive and SWIM did order some.
To dilute it, it's possible to do a steam distillation.
What's the techniques availible in kitchen to use this resin if any ?

 

[69ron]

Also, another thing that makes me not believe that amination theory is calamus oil. It primarily contains asarone which should by that theory form TMA-2, and while's it's very slightly psychoactive, it's primarily sedating like safrole and causes very severe nausea. It's hardly something I'd call psychedelic and nothing remotely like TMA-2 in its effects.

No, that is not correct. Alpha- and beta-asarone should not undergo amination, as they aren't allyls. Alpha- and beta-asarone are propenyls. Amination will not happen with propenyls, only with allyls. Gamma-asarone is an allyl, so amination might happen with that. Calamus oil have some gamma-asarone in it, which I think is the hallucinogenic compound there. Calamus is hallucinogenic, that is beyond doubt. But the alpha- and beta-asarone is sedating and causes nausea.

So many sites I've seen do claim asarone will turn into TMA-2 by that reaction, so I'm not really sure what to believe now. But that doesn’t explain safrole’s lack of action. Safrole is an allyl.

 

[69ron]

SWIM's 6 drop report:
6 drops therapeutic grade essential elemi oil dilute in water, down the hatch.

I would not use water. Elemicin is insoluble in water and will likely just cling to the cup or walls of your mouth and throat and not get digested properly. Use something elemicin is soluble in like honey, alcohol, etc. That should work much better.

 

[69ron]

Going back to calamus, we have alpha-asarone, beta-asarone, and gamma-asarone. Typically beta-asarone is the main oil present at up to 75% of the essential oil. Gamma-asarone is present in very small amounts, like 3.20%, with alpha-asarone being about 1.32%. So gamma-asarone is a very minor player in the oil in most calamus. However, look at this:

The Czech accessions had a similar essential oil content and composition as the Finnish and Slovenian origin ones. The average essential oil content of 1.91% (1.20% – 2.92%) is slightly higher than in Finland, but anyway 14 from 24 analysed samples did not execute the norm defined for quality of Radix calami (minimum 2% of essential oil) by Czech Pharmaceutical Codex. The main components of the essential oils were beta- and gamma- asarones. The average content of gamma-asarone was 18.65% (12.52 – 25.35%) and that of the beta-asarone was 16.11% (11.34 – 21.30%)

So there do exist strains of Calamus in Czech that are high in gamma-asarone. You may want to look into those. Perhaps those are the ones that are the most hallucinogenic and least nauseating. I know for a fact some people get hallucinogenic effects from Calamus. It’s often said that only certain strains are active, and they must be fresh. So maybe gamma-asarone is the main hallucinogen, and it is not stable, so fresh material is needed.

Now if gamma-asarone absorbs well sublingually, and alpha-asarone and beta-asarone do not, then maybe that’s a good way to get the positive effects from it while avoiding the nauseating effects of ha-asarone and beta-asarone.

Definitely more work needs to be done on this.

 

[Ginkgo]

So many sites I've seen do claim asarone will turn into TMA-2 by that reaction, so I'm not really sure what to believe now.

Yeah, but they are wrong. Plain and simply totally wrong. Only allylbenzenes will be aminated according to the theory. If someone wants to try out the properties of gamma-asarone, check out Caesulia axillaris oil. It contains as much as 63% gamma-asarone according to one study.

 

[69ron]

It's nice to know about Caesulia axillaris oil but you can't buy Caesulia axillaris oil. I already looked. So SWIM will never be able to try it.

The only source I could find that you can actually buy with decent amounts of gamma-asarone is calamus oil from certain parts of the world.

 

[pau]

I would not use water. Elemicin is insoluble in water and will likely just cling to the cup or walls of your mouth and throat and not get digested properly. Use something elemicin is soluble in like honey, alcohol, etc. That should work much better.

Thanks, Ron. A recent gift from my daughter ought to mix up perfectly with elemicin:
Ararat (brandy) - Wikipedia

 

[69ron]

Evening Glory, another oil high in gamma-asarone is the essential oil of Crowea angustifolia var. angustifolia which has up to 68% gamma-asarone. But again, who can buy that oil. SWIM will never be able to try it.

 

[narmz]

Wow I bet this is really drummin' up some sales for certain vendors... oh yeah, FV is selling elemi oil now. What a cawinkidink!

 

[pau]

noticed plenty of online Australian herbal vendors selling Crowea oil...

The "Australian Bush Flower" is "for people who are not feeling quite right with themselves, and just a little out of balance. A great remedy for worry and stress. It's for people who always have something to worry about, but never have specific fears..."

no mention of gamma-asarone that I could see.

 

[Ginkgo]

Take note that only Crowea angustifolia contains large amounts of gamma-asarone. The other members of Crowea spp. mainly contains croweacin, which should turn into MMDA-3A if the amination of allylbenzenes theory is correct.

 

[69ron]

I can find a few places selling Sassafras oil.

Is there a place that sells American calamus oil (Calamus americanus) or just dried root? I'd like to buy some. I have heard the American variety is far superior, but I never tied it.

 

[69ron]

Today was SWIM’s strongest dose yet. It was 15 drops (0.42 ml, about 360 mg) in 2 teaspoons of honey taken orally. My guess is the oil is about 4% elemicin, so that comes to a dose of about 14 mg of elemicin.

At this dose it is getting more like LSD than mescaline. There’s a crisp solid feel to it, unlike the smooth soft gentle feel of mescaline. It’s definitely got a sparkling stimulant quality to it. It’s hard to describe exactly. Lots of euphoria, a gentle very pleasant stimulation, and mild mental psychedelic effects are present.

It’s been 4:00 hours, it’s peaked about 30 minutes ago. There are very mild visuals present.

The mind remains focused, there are mild insight effects, it’s upbeat, positive, with no side effects at all at 15 drops. The difference in strength between 10 drops and 15 is small. But it’s definitely showing it’s character more.

I would define it as a psychedelic stimulant. It’s not soft and smooth like mescaline at this dose, but more rigid and sharp like LSD, but without LSD’s “something is about to happen” feeling.

I must say that this is becoming one of SWIM’s favorite psychedelics, at least at this dosage range.

As far as tolerance goes, SWIM has not noticed much tolerance if used every 3 days. Every 4 days is slightly better, but not by much. Every 2 days is not so good, producing quite a bit of tolerance. At least that’s how it is for SWIM. It seems like the tolerance build up is identical to LSD for SWIM.

So far SWIM puts this experience ON PAR with a low dose of mescaline or LSD. It’s similar to both, and as nice as both.

At 15 drops (0.42 ml), more was expected though. It was a little disappointing. It did not feel 3 times stronger than 5 drops, more like 2 times as strong.