Is safrole psychedelic?

[69ron]

About 1.8 ml (approximately 1600 mg or about 64 drops) of average potency Elemi oil contains 60 mg of elemicin, which is comparable to the amount of elemicin present in a full blown hallucinogenic dose of nutmeg, without all the myristicin and other toxins of course.

I would not recommend trying that much. I highly warn against it. I don’t know of any reports of anyone taking more than 10 drops of Elemi oil (about 9 mg of elemicin). The reports of full blown nutmeg intoxication are pretty unpleasant, and its possible elemicin at 60 mg causes very unpleasant side effects and may even be dangerous. There’s a lot of toxic crap in nutmeg that is likely to contribute to it’s unpleasant side effects, but it’s possible elemicin is one of them. I just don’t know.

 

[69ron]

The following page talks a lot about nutmeg: Erowid Nutmeg Vault : Myristica fragrans: An Exploration of the Narcotic Spice

This is an interesting quote from that page which to me indicates myristicin is not responsible for the desired hallucinogenic effects of nutmeg, but instead responsible for the mind fuck it causes (keep in mind that nutmeg contains far more myristicin than elemicin):

Myristicin's psychoactive properties were confirmed by a study on ten human participants in 1961 (Hallstrom & Thuvander 1997, citing Truitt et al. 1961). Each of the participants was administered 400 mg of myristicin, or approximately 6-7 mg/kg by body weight. Only four of the participants experienced psychoactive effects, including euphoria, anxiety, and trouble concentrating.

That only four participants experienced psychoactive effects at this level suggests that 400 mg or (6-7 mg/kg) is a threshold effective dose for nearly half of the population. Time of onset was between two and three hours after ingestion. Interestingly, 400 mg of myristicin is around twice the amount of myristicin that would be present in a moderate-high psychoactive dose of nutmeg, suggesting that myristicin is not the sole psychoactive agent in nutmeg.

 

[Ginkgo]

Where do you get your elemi oil and how much do you pay for it? I'm thinking about ordering some, but it's too many stores to choose between... Perhaps some place where they sell more than 10 ml at once?

 

[Ginkgo]

I found this store, where they sell 16oz of the oil for $67.20. That's not too bad, is it? That should be over 280 doses on ~60 mg elemicin each.

 

[69ron]

Where do you get your elemi oil and how much do you pay for it? I'm thinking about ordering some, but it's too many stores to choose between... Perhaps some place where they sell more than 10 ml at once?

I get it at the local herb store. They only have it in 10 ml amounts there (but I don't pay shipping so it's cheap). It's pretty much all from the same source: the Philippines, so I doubt it makes any difference where you get it. Just make sure it's therapeutic grade.

Here’s another bit of info on nutmeg from Erowid at: Erowid Nutmeg Vault : Effects #1

Myristicin constitutes about two thirds of the aromatic ether fraction, but it cannot account entirely for the psychoactivity of nutmeg. A 400-mg dose of myristicin, almost twice the amount present in 20 gm of nutmeg (20 gm being assumed to be the quantity required to produce psychotropic effects) produces only mild effects\footnote {Schultes and Hofmann. The Botany and Chemistry of Hallucinogens. p. 121}. The author is am not aware of any trial involving an accurate mix of all of the known aromatic ethers. Those occurring at more than 10 mg per 20 g are myristicin (210 mg), elemicin (70 mg), safrole (39 mg), methyleugenol (18 mg), and methylisoeugenol (11 mg). Safrole is probably not psychoactive, so elemicin might be worth investigating, thought it is doubtful that it alone can account for the activity.

That’s yet another quote making it look to me like elemicin is the hallucinogen of nutmeg and the other stuff is just toxic crap to be avoided.

Also what’s interesting about that quote is that it gives the dosage of elemicin at 70 mg for a decent dose of nutmeg. That’s much more than SWIM has ever tried of elemicin via Elemi oil.

 

[Ginkgo]

Yeah, this does indeed look extremely interesting! I will follow up with some test myself as soon as I receive the oil. I will not start with anything over 15 drops, when working with new substances one have to be overly cautious. How long is the duration, and how long is the tolerance lasting for you?

The reason I am doubting that elemicin is in the league of mescaline and the other relatives, is because I don't think non-alkaloids should have high affinity for the serotonin receptors. And even though I know nutmeg is hallucinogenic, my understanding is that the hallucinations are extremely dull, nowhere near what our favored entheogens can produce. Perhaps I am wrong?

If this really is active in the league as the more common serotonergic entheogens, you have stumbled over a gold mine! Just think about it - cheap and readily available entheogenic oil! In addition, it is amazing if a non-alkaloid will have such effect. Perhaps elemicin really is converted to something else in the body?

 

[jamie]

I once drank a giant nutmeg tea that I brewed up..I was about 19 and stupid..and didnt weigh it or anything..

It was active..it was interesting..but had this weird stoning effect that lingered with hirrible red blood shot eyes..there was visuals, a watery sort of warping of floor and walls at one point in a restaurant a friend and I were in. I cant remember any more details of the experience it was 7 years ago.

Il have to get some of this elemi oil soon and try it out.

 

[69ron]

How long is the duration, and how long is the tolerance lasting for you?

At 10 drops it lasts about 8 hours, and seems like tolerance lasts about 2 days max at the dose SWIM tested, but it will work 2 days in a row, just not as well. If you skip 1 day between tests, it works pretty good, but 2 days are better. At least that’s how it seems so far. I wouldn’t say that’s written in stone yet. SWIM needs more tests.

The reason I am doubting that elemicin is in the league of mescaline and the other relatives, is because I don't think non-alkaloids should have high affinity for the serotonin receptors. And even though I know nutmeg is hallucinogenic, my understanding is that the hallucinations are extremely dull, nowhere near what our favored entheogens can produce. Perhaps I am wrong?

If you read all the reports of nutmeg intoxication that are out though there are some that include hallucinogenic effects that are on-par with mescaline, and some even more intense than mescaline, being fully immersive dream-like visions. But many reports are lacking good hallucinogenic effects and are mostly stoning and unpleasant. I believe that’s from the high myristicin content of nutmeg.

If this really is active in the league as the more common serotonergic entheogens, you have stumbled over a gold mine! Just think about it - cheap and readily available entheogenic oil! In addition, it is amazing if a non-alkaloid will have such effect. Perhaps elemicin really is converted to something else in the body?

Don’t give me any credit. It’s a guy named Curious_George on the Bluelight forum that reported about this before I ever did.

There must be a catch of some sort. It must be unpleasant at fully hallucinogenic doses with maybe nausea, disorientation, etc. At 10 drops it’s heavenly, at 50+ maybe it’s unpleasant. I just don’t know. Someone will have to test it and find out.

I once drank a giant nutmeg tea that I brewed up..I was about 19 and stupid..and didnt weigh it or anything..

It was active..it was interesting..but had this weird stoning effect that lingered with hirrible red blood shot eyes..there was visuals, a watery sort of warping of floor and walls at one point in a restaurant a friend and I were in. I cant remember any more details of the experience it was 7 years ago.

That sounds like mostly the effects of myristicin. It’s stoning, sort of marijuana-like, and not much of a hallucinogen according to reports of pure myristicin ingestion that I’ve read. I have yet to see a single report of the effects of pure elemicin in man. If anyone knows of such a report PLEASE POST IT!!!!

 

[69ron]

The reason I am doubting that elemicin is in the league of mescaline and the other relatives, is because I don't think non-alkaloids should have high affinity for the serotonin receptors.

I want to readdress this. THC is not an alkaloid, it's a terpenoid, also Salvinorin A is not an alkaloid. Both of these are very potent psychoactives, but of course different from mescaline and the rest. I bring this up because often it’s assumed that psychedelics must be alkaloids, and this is just not the case. Many people consider cannabis and salvia to be psychedelics and neither are active because of alkaloids. Some people even consider salvia to be more hallucinogenic than mescaline. Of course this is almost an “apples and oranges” comparison. I only bring it up because it shows that non-alkaloid psychedelics do exist. These work on different systems from mescaline, but still, they are very active.

 

[Ginkgo]

The reason I am doubting that elemicin is in the league of mescaline and the other relatives, is because I don't think non-alkaloids should have high affinity for the serotonin receptors.

I want to readdress this. THC is not an alkaloid, it's a terpenoid, also Salvinorin A is not an alkaloid. Both of these are very potent psychoactives, but of course different from mescaline and the rest. I bring this up because often it’s assumed that psychedelics must be alkaloids, and this is just not the case. Many people consider cannabis and salvia to be psychedelics and neither are alkaloids. Some people even consider salvia to be more hallucinogenic than mescaline. Of course this is almost an “apples and oranges” comparison. I only bring it up because it shows that non-alkaloid psychedelics do exist. These work on different systems from mescaline, but still, they are very active.

Yeah, absolutely! But if elemicin were to be a true hallucinogen (cannabis is not, even though it's a psychedelic), it would be the second non-alkaloid substance ever found to be a hallucinogen. It would also be the first such serotonergic hallucinogen. Actually, perhaps the first non-alkaloid that binds to serotonin receptors with a somewhat high affinity at all?

There's at least 10 different natural products that are only a molecule of ammonia away from being one of the 10 essential amphetamines. With this in mind, I find it somewhat strange that one of the natural products should yield effects comparable to one of the psychedelic amphetamines, when the rest yields no to little effect.

But again, I do really hope I am wrong here! I just don't want us to get ahead of ourselves and automatically assume that light psychedelic effects in low doses equals intense hallucinogenic effects in larger doses.

 

[lyserge]

Don’t give me any credit. It’s a guy named Curious_George on the Bluelight forum that reported about this before I ever did.

That sounds like mostly the effects of myristicin. It’s stoning, sort of marijuana-like, and not much of a hallucinogen according to reports of pure myristicin ingestion that I’ve read. I have yet to see a single report of the effects of pure elemicin in man. If anyone knows of such a report PLEASE POST IT!!!!

Sorry, I've been unable to find such a report myself but like everyone else (it seems...) SWIM has a vial of elemi oil waiting in her mail delivery box...she'll report back later. By the way PLEASE don't delete this until we get to the bottom of it, Ron, resident elder and "Mad Scientist Extraordinaire".

 

[jamie]

How do we know its not being converted into an alkaloid in the body?

 

[Ginkgo]

How do we know its not being converted into an alkaloid in the body?

Well, we actually don't. If Shulgin's proposed metabolic action really is happening with elemicin, we should have TMA. TMA has a duration of 6-8 hours, which suites well to what we see with elemicin. The dosage for TMA is said to be from 100 to 250 mg. Ron have, based on his research, suggested 60-70mg as a hallucinogenic dose of elemicin.

Even though each elemecin molecule would have to be paired with an ammonia molecule for the proposed reaction to take place, the additional weight of the ammonia does not account for the large difference in dosages. (225.284 g/mol per TMA and 17.031 g/mol per ammonia = 7.56 % lower dose -> 92 to 231mg elemicin equals 100 to 250mg TMA.)

It might be that there's something wrong in the adviced dosages for either elemicin or TMA (it's an extremely uncommon substance). But if it isn't, then the proposed conversion does not take place. It's always possible that elemicin might be converted to something totally else, but that's a shot in the dark.

 

[69ron]

… But if elemicin were to be a true hallucinogen (cannabis is not, even though it's a psychedelic), it would be the second non-alkaloid substance ever found to be a hallucinogen. It would also be the first such serotonergic hallucinogen. Actually, perhaps the first non-alkaloid that binds to serotonin receptors with a somewhat high affinity at all?

I am amazed someone like Shulgin hasn’t already tested elemicin on humans. If elemicin is a true hallucinogen at larger doses with effects like mescaline, it is an amazing find, especially if it’s active on it’s own as is. Maybe Shulgin DID test it and he is just keeping quiet about it!

That’s why I keep thinking there must be a catch. Either it never becomes truly hallucinogenic, and just stays marginally hallucinogenic even at high doses, or it probably becomes unpleasant at truly hallucinogenic doses. It’s hard to believe otherwise, but who knows. Salvinorin A was also hard to believe until people started studying it. Elemicin may have just been overshadowed by the uninteresting myristicin for so long that no one really seriously looked into it.

There's at least 10 different natural products that are only a molecule of ammonia away from being one of the 10 essential amphetamines. With this in mind, I find it somewhat strange that one of the natural products should yield effects comparable to one of the psychedelic amphetamines, when the rest yields no to little effect.

But again, I do really hope I am wrong here! I just don't want us to get ahead of ourselves and automatically assume that light psychedelic effects in low doses equals intense hallucinogenic effects in larger doses.

I’m not assuming anything. It SEEMS like it will become fully hallucinogenic and remain pleasant based on the tests SWIM has done so far. I have no idea if it really will. Until a large dose is taken, it’s all just theory. Maybe it makes you immensely sick if you take 20 drop or more. No one knows.

How do we know its not being converted into an alkaloid in the body?

Well, we actually don't. If Shulgin's proposed metabolic action really is happening with elemicin, we should have TMA. TMA has a duration of 6-8 hours, which suites well to what we see with elemicin. The dosage for TMA is said to be from 100 to 250 mg. Ron have, based on his research, suggested 60-70mg as a hallucinogenic dose of elemicin.

Even though each elemecin molecule would have to be paired with an ammonia molecule for the proposed reaction to take place, the additional weight of the ammonia does not account for the large difference in dosages. (225.284 g/mol per TMA and 17.031 g/mol per ammonia = 7.56 % lower dose -> 92 to 231mg elemicin equals 100 to 250mg TMA.)

It might be that there's something wrong in the adviced dosages for either elemicin or TMA (it's an extremely uncommon substance). But if it isn't, then the proposed conversion does not take place. It's always possible that elemicin might be converted to something totally else, but that's a shot in the dark.

Of course this is all theory. No one knows. No human tests ever confirmed how it works. Also Shulgin’s dosage ranges for drugs in his books are sometimes way off. He’s a little sloppy about that. The dosage he gives for TMA could be totally off. I wouldn’t be too surprised.

The effects of TMA do not sound similar to the effects of elemicin from what I’ve read. It seems pretty unpleasant, dark, and anti-social, which is the opposite of elemicin. The duration is about the same as elemicin, but the dosage quoted for TMA (again this could be wrong) makes it weaker than elemicin and so it just doesn’t make sense that elemicin would become TMA in the body and be more potent than TMA is. That just doesn’t add up. How can elemicin form TMA in the body that’s more potent than TMA? If anything, I would expect it to be less potent than TMA. Not the other way around. But again, the quoted TMA dosages might be completely off.

It’s possible it’s becoming something other than TMA. No one knows how it works.

As of this moment, I don’t even know if it’s a true hallucinogen. At 10 drops of Elemi oil (containing about 9 mg of elemicin), the effects are nearly identical to a low dose of mescaline or LSD. You have mental clarity, euphoria, stimulation, mild visual effects, tingling sensations, and some other effects that are hard to describe, all of which are similar to all the well known psychedelics at low doses. At least two other users experienced CEVs at the 7-10 drop dosage. SWIM has not though. But visuals are obviously there.

If SWIM didn’t know better, he’d have thought 10 drops was 60 mg of mescaline, or possibly some extra nice acid at 50 micrograms. These are the two closest things to it SWIM knows of. The social ease you get from it is more like mescaline than acid. And the body feel is more like mescaline, but also a little like acid.

Does it become a full blown psychedelic at larger doses? That’s the million dollar question.

 

[Dorge]

It does sounds like they are talking about LSD!
maybe they do know... but i think i would know they know lol!
Maybe the whole thread should be deleted but it is important that this gets researched...

SWIM just went to another city to get some and is now back and has taken a shot of it with some whiskey... not bad. Almost like a sort of citrus camphor actually. SWIM uses camphor infusedin vodka with camalonga in SWIMS healing ceremonies a lot and is quite used to that taste. this is pretty good... now its getting it to totally dilute inthe alcohol...this will require a higher proof.

 

[Dorge]

"Having found the treasure of 2,4,5-ness, it is instructive to look back at nature, to see what its plant equivalents might be. There are indeed a few essential oils that have their methoxy groups in this arrangement. TMA-2 is thus one of the Essential Amphetamines, and most of the botanical connections are discussed under TMA. The natural skeleton is found in asarone, with alpha-asarone being trans-propenyl, beta-asarone the cis-propenyl and gamma-asarone (also called euasarone) being the allyl-isomer. I had mentioned, in the spice cabinet discussion under TMA, the tasting of asarone at up to 70 milligrams without any effects."~PIHKAL TMA-2

Perhaps this is not TMA but something like TMA-2 or perhaps is some tweak of tma or tma2... who knows... but when you look at tma-2 the dose is a wholelot closer and the effects sound a bit more close too.

" (with 20 mg) I took it in two 10 milligram doses, spaced by two hours. There was a slight movement of surface textures, my hearing was deepened and spatially defined. The body was relaxed and stretching seemed necessary. The further I got into it the more I realized that I was totally lazy. Very lethargic, to the point of laughter. At the sixth hour, I was seeing more life in the woodwork, and the wooden angel hanging on the ceiling was flesh and feathers when I stared at it. Great vision. But by no means overwhelming. Sleep was fine.

(with 20 mg) The first two hours seemed like an eternity, with time passing slowly. Then it settled into a very calm and enjoyable event (not that it wasn't already). The material seemed somewhat hypnotic. I suspect that I would believe suggestions, or at least not challenge them too much. I had a little confusion but it was not troublesome. On reflection, the material was quite good. It was benign in the sense that there appeared to be no dark spots. I would try it again, perhaps at 30 milligrams. Almost base-line after 12 hours, but not quite.

(with 24 mg) I took the dosage in two halves, an hour apart. Initially, I was a little nauseous, with light tremors and modest eye dilation. But after another hour, there was the entire package of mescaline, missing only the intense color enhancement. The world is filled with distorted. moving things. Then my little fingers on both hands got periodically numb. And there was an occasional light-headedness that hinted at fainting. The two phenomena alternated, and never got in each other's ways. Both passed, once I realized that I would recover from this experience. Then the humor and joy of the world returned. The drop-off was quite rapid from the fifth to eighth hour, and no effects remained at all by the twelfth hour.

(with 40 mg) Very slow coming on. Didn't feel it for an hour, but then at a full +++ in another hour. Beautiful experience. Erotic excellent. Eyes-closed imagery and fantasy to music. No dark corners. Benign and peaceful and lovely. There were brief intestinal cramps early, and a little diarrhea, but no other problems. I was able to sleep after eight hours, but had guarded dreams.

(with 40 mg) Beautiful plus 3. Some visuals, but not intrusive. Moderate, good-mannered kaleidoscopic imagery against dark. Music superb. Clear thinking. Calmly cosmic. This is a seminal, or archetypal psychoactive material. A very good experience and good for repeats. About 10-12 hrs. Sleep difficult but OK. "

it could end up being a very low dose of TMA-2 that would make more sense with the effects being reported.

ingested about 15 minutes ago... waiting effects... swim shall see... already feel warm and fuzzy... a bit flushed in the face.

 

[69ron]

ingested about 15 minutes ago... waiting effects... swim shall see... already feel warm and fuzzy... a bit flushed in the face.

How much oil and whiskey was used? You said 1 shot of whiskey right?

 

[Dorge]

SWIM took 15 drops all together... with about three shots of whiskey.... through out the night. By 2hours swim did not feel significantly altered. Then SWIM smoked herb... holy god... that was perfect. Herb really helps bring it out, swim feels like he is definitely high, good mood, really shook off the funk, expanded insight. Over all good thing. But its really the synergy with the herb that has really just shaped it really nicely.
no OEV or CEVs... just that tracking movement peripheral vision thing.

 

[69ron]

Dorge, did you get any side effects?

 

[Dorge]

none