Kava not safe?

[Jox]

Hi all,

I started working with Kava Kava a month and a week ago. I have sleep problem due to permanent pain from Fibromyalgia. Kava greatly improved my sleep pattern and falling to sleep became pleasurable.

BUT just few days ago I started feeling soreness in my kidney area. I stopped Kava, and it is improving, but five days in it didn't go away completely. I took total of 6 oz package, which is about one soup spoon a night prepared by kneading.

I am aware of the controversy regarding the Kava use, and I am reluctant to use it on regular basis. Too bad since I really liked the work of the root.

 

[The Traveler]

This you might find interesting:

Medical Sleuthing Linked Muscle, Kidney Problems to Kava Tea

Please read that article well since there are quite a few interesting points like dosage and frequency of dosage and also about recovery.

Also this quote is interesting:

Ryan P. Bodkin, M.D., the URMC Emergency Medicine chief resident who treated the patient, said most cases of toxic poisonings in the ED involve an overdose of standard medications such as Tylenol or anti-depressants, for instance; or alcohol abuse, or illegal drugs such as cocaine, marijuana or heroin.

“It is extremely unusual to see toxicity like this,” Bodkin said. “Liver damage from kava has been reported occasionally, and only one other case of myoglobinuria (muscle damage) has been reported. This is not to say it never happens, but we were fortunate to recognize it because it is so rare.”

So it seems to be a rare thing but quite plausible to happen in certain cases and when it happens it is bad.

Jox, it would be interesting for us how long you have used this and what the exact dosage was per dosing.



Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Hi there!

I have some experiences with Kava and haven't encountered this or any other health related problem. With any health issues with kava, it is very rare. With daily, prolonged use can cause skin changes and organ volume changes. In this case (according to you) the kidney organ. Kava has a numbing effect and may just be your kidneys being sensitive.. kava is not toxic (when taken correctly) but is quite bulky. Sometimes negative effects can occur (with all psychoactives) and may prolong if enough has been taken.

With 6 tbsp it can become quite powerful and this is how far I've gotten with this plant ally. All other times have been 1-3-5 tbsp.

Jox, it would be interesting for us how long you have used this and what the exact dosage was per dosing.

Very important information regarding dosage. You explain an entire 6 oz? What do you mean exactly regarding dose? We are glad to help you figure this out.

 

[obliguhl]

Are you using a tudei Kava strain? They are indeed problematic. Otherwise, it might very well be a coincidence of your anxiety of liver damage manifesting in your body. Properly harvested and prepared "noble Kava" is relatively safe to use, as far as i know. You might want to consult the experts at kavaforums.com though...read around and learn more.

 

[Jox]

Hi all,

I took more than 6 g and no more than 12 g every night for past six weeks. I was using Fijian Kava by Paradise Kava.

I will wait for the tension to go away in next few days, if not I will go te see a doc, maybe it is some kind of coincidence.

Traveler, I read the article, and was not taking any of the meds or substances that could interfere.

I will check the forum, I must say that I was not going overboard with the research since on wikipedia it doesn't sound alarming, and Germany relegalised it, so I kind of concluded it is OK.

I hope is something else because I really like the root, and now few days that I stopped it, my sleep, even though with regular meds is better than before with same meds, so I even conclude that was healing...

Best to all, and thank you for responding
Jox

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Perhaps change the amount of kava you are using if this tension goes away. Such as 3-4 g's instead and take with plenty of water. It doesn't matter where it is legal and where it is not, unless you are concerned of law. Kava can be dangerous to the liver and possibly other organs when concentrated. So it's reasonable to suggest that pure kava root can cause similar problems. Natural sensitivities to kava can result in changes within inflammatory tissues, possibly resulting in soreness, fatigue or weakness.

Hope you feel better soon. Kava is a wonderful ally to work with.. healing plant. As obliguhl said, its better to talk to real kava professionals who work with it on a daily basis.

 

[obliguhl]

and Germany relegalised it, so I kind of concluded it is OK.

Is this a recent development? I was under the impression that germany allowed the sale for a short period of time, while the kava lobby was allowed to present new studies. They did, and it was still concluded that kava has no benefits over standard medication so it was banned again.

Germany once was one of the biggest markets for Kava and Kava products. I think it goes without saying that there are other major players interested in keeping kava illegal.

 

[Jox]

My provider send me a message and a link that it is legal, and obviously they are very happy$$$$.

I just came from the lab and did blood test to see the kidney function, I'll have the results tomorrow. I decided to do it because I will not know for sure, if I don't have the blood test.

 

[obliguhl]

WTF, i just looked it up, and apparantly, there has been a court ruling 12 days ago in favor of kava! Amazing...man, how amazing is that

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

I know there were some problems with people who were taking Kava Kava in capsule form, because the producers were including ground up leaf matter in the preparation, in addition to just root, and the leaf matter contains some molecules that can lead to liver damage.

I'm not sure how much that helps, but it could be something.

 

[Jox]

Wheeeeeyoooo, my kidney blood test came out perfect, so no problem.

So I am back to the great Kava.

I will do liver test later on.... So I guess it is fine to use.

Thank you all
Jox

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Kava for the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder RCT: analysis of adverse reactions, liver function, addiction, and sexual effects - PubMed

An interesting analysis done on liver results, anxiety and general sexual function. However, many other studies do show adverse reactions to those with sensitivities or otherwise allergic reactions. It's been also shown that low kava doses actually have a protective effect on liver function. All should be well.

Some more stuff in here, too.

The health and social effects of drinking water-based infusions of kava: a review of the evidence - PubMed

And here

Traditional aqueous kava extracts inhibit cytochrome P450 1A2 in humans: Protective effect against environmental carcinogens? - PubMed

 

[D.REYx420]

Some kava is cut with plant leaf material and stem material to add weight to it and make moar money off of it. To be sure of your kava simply get it from a reputable supplier that gets straight root and isnt just some superstore kava or w.e, they have found all the toxic and harmful lactones and things are from the leaf material mostly and the cut kavas give you that liver and kidney warning because they have the leaf material in them.

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Some kava is cut with plant leaf material and stem material to add weight to it and make moar money off of it. To be sure of your kava simply get it from a reputable supplier that gets straight root and isnt just some superstore kava or w.e, they have found all the toxic and harmful lactones and things are from the leaf material mostly and the cut kavas give you that liver and kidney warning because they have the leaf material in them.

Specifically which leaf lactones or constitutes do you speak of? The main active component of kava root are the kavalactones.

 

[D.REYx420]

Im way rusty on my kava knowledge but i remember the tuedai and noble kava thing and these 2 lactones being of interest because of it

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

and then there was the extract thing about certain solvents used could be selective in there extraction of the roots and contamination with either leaf or stem. Ill look at my lebot book and see if I can find anything else.

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Interesting. Flavokawain A and B seem to have differing, apoptotic effects.. except flavo B appears to have hepatotoxic effects. I recall reading about these compounds in one of my books.. however it was quite limited. They also reduce the capacity of glutathione.. which is liver protect ant. I'd imagine with a healthy diet, this risk can be minimized greatly by counteracting the toxic effects.

However, several reports of severe hepatotoxicity in kava consumers led the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and authorities in Europe to restrict sales of kava-containing products.

This is quite a very rare occurrence. Who knows where these kava products originated from. Kava has potent liver, medicinal, apoptotic effects when used in excess or in a large amount of a dose, definitely something to be aware of. Definitely not something to avoid kava for.

 

[D.REYx420]

Yea if I remember correctly the same compounds that have been found to be the good cancer riding and things are the ones that are hepatoxic but I think they only are at the high dosages and things and not rele fathomly harmful in the portions you would get them from the roots. There only a handful of times when I have felt a slight strain on my kidneys and liver from drinking copious amounts of kava at night but I have never got the kava "hangover" effect like others describe.

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Completely. This is actually quite common with some plants. The main components having both positive and negative effects. With kava, I feel balance is required. Besides, drinking certains amounts of high dose kava leads to undesirable effects such as nausea and vomiting.

I've been present with this dose on one occasion and decided to leave that state alone and focus on lower dosages. Although, higher doses do in fact have powerful, profound effects. Such as flying over landscapes (recorded from earlier kava texts on polynesia islands).. powerful hearing and visual changes, very focused inner communication, increased heart rate, the inability to move or walk upright.. or follow a train of thought.

These states with kava are actually quite esoteric and really are only intended for one or two experiences.. as it can be taxing on the body. Other than that, its main purpose lies within the enhanced, low dose states.. which also has unique benefits to the entire body.

 

[Jox]

Cognitive Heart,

Can you provide me #s, of high dose! and daily dose?

I take one table spoon a night, would that be average, or high? I know it may depend of a strain of Kava, but just for ilustrative purpose what are the amounts you talk about.

Thank
Jox

 

[D.REYx420]

well do you drink that everynight? because when I just make kava to drink for a night I drink like 4 to 6 tbsp depending on the cultivar and sometimes ill redose even if I started drinking it to early lol and even then im fine doing that once a week and not feeling anything but in a great mood and no anxiety all the time.
Usually if I have a surplus of kava ill make like a 8 tbsp batch up and keep it in the fridge so I can have a shell after work or just every night for a night cap and that feels completely fine and not even close to a native Polynesians dose imo, and the nausea and vomiting thing ive never even came close to feeling. Ive never experienced any of the negative side effects that people talk about and I think I drink allot of kava when I have it.