• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Ketamine to help with Depression

Migrated topic.
Ketamine seems like the last thing needed.

Self Esteem comes with practice, not a ketamine trip. get out of your comfort zone...ASAP.

Your life is being wasted.

No one wants to look back and realize you wasted it all in fear.

I would suggest you leave the nexus and internet behind until you have made steps in your life to take some control of your life. Telling this story on an internet forum for this long is not likely to be helping.

You have no idea how powerful you are.
Click to expand...

This is all true, but not good advice for the severely depressed who can't get out of bed. What you say is needed, but some people do need assistance. Someone who had an accident and is now temporarly in a wheelchair, can't get out of his "comfort zone" by running a marathon. He needs rehabilitation therapy first to succesively strengthen his body. Same with severely depressed people. We're not talking about mood swings, but crippling depression. Also, a "trip" is not needed, but a small dose.

News:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Rapidly Acting Antidepressant Ketamine and the mGlu2/3 Receptor Antagonist LY341495 Rapidly Engage Dopaminergic Mood Circuits - PubMed

Ketamine is a rapidly acting antidepressant in patients with treatment-resistant depression (TRD). Although the mechanisms underlying these effects are not fully established, inquiry to date has focused on the triggering of synaptogenesis transduction pathways via glutamatergic mechanisms...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Makes sense, since i do not fare too well with ssris but respond to drugs with dopaminergic effects better.
 
obliguhl said:
This is all true, but not good advice for the severely depressed who can't get out of bed. What you say is needed, but some people do need assistance. Someone who had an accident and is now temporarly in a wheelchair, can't get out of his "comfort zone" by running a marathon. He needs rehabilitation therapy first to succesively strengthen his body. Same with severely depressed people. We're not talking about mood swings, but crippling depression.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is so so much 'advice' out there from armchair psychologists and even medical professionals that is impractical and even damaging to people who are ACTUALLY depressed not just suffering from a period of low mood. Desperately pushing myself to exercise and do things on the advice of these people ended up in me having a total breakdown.

I honestly do not think depression can be understood unless someone has actually suffered a genuine case of it.

obliguhl said:
Also, a "trip" is not needed, but a small dose.
Click to expand...

0.5mg/kg IV is not a small dose. The other study would used 0.1 - 0.5 in increments with the higher doses having a better effect but there were real problems with tolerability. The relapse rate in these studies is also high. I've recently tried it and while it did work a bit quite some time later (the metabolite of ketamine seems to be what does it), my mood slid straight back the next day. At lower doses it did nothing.

I think the research is obviously good since it could open up news areas of study but ketamine on it's own looks like a better use for emergency cases where short term relief is needed to stop someone being a danger to themselves.
 
Just to add another data point. I have been playing with this over the last few weeks because absolutely nothing has touched my depression.

Ketamine does seem to work to significant degree on me IF the dose is enough. Based on people that have been though the controlled infusions, the medics have said they experience 'a mild dissociate experience'. If I take a dose that gives me this is does nothing, I need to have a dose that pretty significantly knocks me sideways for quite some time for it to have an effect. I only notice effects quite some time later and strongest a full 24hrs afterwards.

I have to say the experience is pretty nasty, I don't think I have danger in getting addicted to this stuff at all. Ugh.
 
Mandatory Regretamine Reiteration:

PLEASE be careful with this stuff folks. It is insidiously addictive and yes it works as a SHORT-ACTING anti-depressant, to an extreme degree[euphoria at times]. The severely depressed I think are OBVIOUS candidates for ketamine addiction.

My experience with ketamine addiction, the ketamine culture/k-heads, and the healing plant journeys after the fact... All WARNED me harshly to beware of this chemical and its insidiously addictive trip. Pure DEEEEEEP mental addiction folks. The ultimate escape from reality. This is not the answer to depression IMO and I say that out of love and care for the depressed.

I believe this chemical will only hinder the situation in the long-run.

Please rethink this one. You do not want to be burned by Ketamine, it has no mercy.

Salvia, harmalas, cactus, pranayama, holotropic breathwork, undoing yourself, laughter yoga, acting, etc. etc.

Just some other ideas....Undoing Yourself was very helpful to me especially
 
@Jin

Check out a PDF of Undoing Yourself With Energized Meditation and Other Devices its a physical and metaprogramming system for increasing deepness and ease of meditation.
 
Practical application of the neuroregenerative properties of ketamine: real world treatment experience

Also stay away from cheap 83% pure Indian K, get some pharmaceutical 99.5% Esketamine quality, your urinary tract will thank you:

Erowid Ketamine Vaults : KLUTS: Ketamine and Lower Urinary Tract Symptoms

'KLUTS: Ketamine and Lower Urinary Tract Symptoms', by Jon Hanna.
www.erowid.org

Increased depression (assessed with the Beck Depression Inventory) in both daily users and ex-ketamine users was found over the course of one year in a longitudinal study (Morgan, 2010) but not in current infrequent (>1 per month, < 3 times per week) users. However, this elevated depression was not at clinical levels and the increase was not correlated with changes in ketamine use.

Several studies have examined cognitive function in infrequent and frequent ketamine users (e.g. Curran, 2000; Curran, 2001; Morgan, 2009; 2004b; 2006a; 2006b; Narendran, 2005). Overall, recreational ketamine use does not appear to be associated with long-term cognitive impairment. However, the most robust findings are that frequent, dependent ketamine users exhibit profound impairments in both short- and long-term memory (for
review see Morgan and Curran 2006). It is not known currently whether these changes are reversible if users cease ketamine use.

Click to expand...

I support the meditation idea, as well.
 
obliguhl said:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Efficacy and safety of oral ketamine versus diclofenac to alleviate mild to moderate depression in chronic pain patients: A double-blind, randomized, controlled trial - PubMed

Oral ketamine appears to be a safe and effective option in improving depressive symptoms of patients with chronic pain with mild-to-moderate depression.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It seems there were measurable anti-depressive effects after 6 weeks.
Click to expand...
Did your ketamine experiments helped you with your depressions? I tried 250mg Ketanest S intranasal over 5 days and I found no antidepressive effects. Maybe I'm not really depressed, only bored. I found it to be a mind-numbing drug. Not even addictive (imo).
 
Yes, i found that it's the single most beneficial substance to me next to proper psychedelics. But the effect lasted only for a day (20mg sublingual). I do not like the effects at that dose. Just the day after.

There are different types of depression though.
 
100mg insuffilated within a time span of a few minutes basically knocked me out for about 30-45 minutes (I'm a lightweight). It gave me a significant mood lift over the next 3 or 4 days. But that was about it.
 
On a related tangent, I recall the first time I tried MXE. A few of us ingested around 8-10mg orally in an empty gel cap. The experience itself was ok but nothing amazing...relaxed and spacey. However the next day having slept we all felt a pronounced and pleasant uplift in mood, and this afterglow state was more pleasant and interesting than the experience itself the previous evening! From what I recall though, this was a short term effect.

This may be of interest...it seems ketamine's antidepressant effect is being linked to a metabolite.

Ketamine Lifts Depression via a Byproduct of its Metabolism

A chemical byproduct, or metabolite, created as the body breaks down likely holds the secret to its rapid antidepressant action .
www.nimh.nih.gov www.nimh.nih.gov

Link to study:


My personal feeling (based on my own experiences) is that when it comes to substances, things like mushrooms, ayahuasca and iboga are going to provide more long term relief from depression than ketamine.
 
Ive been considering recommending my friend goes on a ketamine trial but from what I read so far it could cause more harm
than good. He has had some serious events occur over the last few years, lost his wife through a divorce, 3 jobs, his cats, and on top of all this he was depressed anyway (which partly explain his turn of events) and is witnessing his family across the other side of the world collapse in part due to his Father being severely depressed and now showing
signs of dementia. He also has an existential slant to it, he believes the world is a very dark and cruel place and that
capitalism and money and politics as they stand are complete bullshit. Can't argue with that but I'm all out of ideas.

He can't try psychedelics due to being on medication and having had psychotic symptoms previous that were exacerbated by high grade cannabis. I'm all out of advice for him he would basically be classed as treatment resistant.
Ketamine helped me get through some dark times before all this research came out but I'm sure it damaged my bladder.
The results so far are encouraging but the fact is once treatment has stopped people are still in the same situation
and environment and their worldview is unlikely to have changed much. There is also the fact of bladder damage to consider, addiction and the fact that they would be unable to continue the treatment which just seems cruel to give people
hope and relief only to prevent them from gaining access to further relief. This quote sums it up well..

“I’ve heard from patients and clinicians saying this is fantastic, let’s start giving people a series of treatments. Then they get stuck in a really bad spot.

Then they get to the point where they start increasing the dose, increasing the frequency, and the person is gradually declining.

“Then there’s the anxiety that if you stop the treatments [the patient] will crash and get even worse than where they started. That’s kind of the nightmare situation..."

The Black Market is an option but it's a gamble as to the purity
and most likely won't be pure enough to prevent any issues used long term.
I will be watching eagerly for the progress on the metabolite.
A new book recently published for those that are interested however it's unclear if anything new is included https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/product.jsp?product=984&catalogId=2&
 
DreaMTripper said:
Ive been considering recommending my friend goes on a ketamine trial but from what I read so far it could cause more harm
than good. He has had some serious events occur over the last few years, lost his wife through a divorce, 3 jobs, his cats, and on top of all this he was depressed anyway (which partly explain his turn of events) and is witnessing his family across the other side of the world collapse in part due to his Father being severely depressed and now showing
signs of dementia. He also has an existential slant to it, he believes the world is a very dark and cruel place and that
capitalism and money and politics as they stand are complete bullshit. Can't argue with that but I'm all out of ideas.

He can't try psychedelics due to being on medication and having had psychotic symptoms previous that were exacerbated by high grade cannabis. I'm all out of advice for him he would basically be classed as treatment resistant.
Ketamine helped me get through some dark times before all this research came out but I'm sure it damaged my bladder.
The results so far are encouraging but the fact is once treatment has stopped people are still in the same situation
and environment and their worldview is unlikely to have changed much. There is also the fact of bladder damage to consider, addiction and the fact that they would be unable to continue the treatment which just seems cruel to give people
hope and relief only to prevent them from gaining access to further relief. This quote sums it up well..

“I’ve heard from patients and clinicians saying this is fantastic, let’s start giving people a series of treatments. Then they get stuck in a really bad spot.

Then they get to the point where they start increasing the dose, increasing the frequency, and the person is gradually declining.

“Then there’s the anxiety that if you stop the treatments [the patient] will crash and get even worse than where they started. That’s kind of the nightmare situation..."

The Black Market is an option but it's a gamble as to the purity
and most likely won't be pure enough to prevent any issues used long term.
I will be watching eagerly for the progress on the metabolite.
A new book recently published for those that are interested however it's unclear if anything new is included https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/product.jsp?product=984&catalogId=2&
Click to expand...

I haven't kept track of or followed up on the long-term implications for participants in the clinical trials, but speaking from my own experience with ketamine I think it has serious potential to cause more harm than good - at least until its therapeutic use is better understood. Outside of the risk of dependence/addiction, if your friend was already experiencing symptoms of psychosis then I really don't think ketamine is a good idea at all. I have a friend who had a total psychotic breakdown in a public park while on ketamine and he had to be hospitalized for it - granted, he was on a bender at the time; but nonetheless I'm not sure ketamine is the appropriate treatment for someone who's already predisposed to psychosis.

I'd keep an eye out for more research on the metabolite, as that seems promising.

In the meantime I wish your friend all the best, and I hope he's able to find something that works for him.
 
Back
Top Bottom