Low-dose Harmala interesting note

[Rabbit]

Hey all,

My rabbit has done aya using Harmala/Acacia Confusa a good number of times. When he started, he would use about 115-120mg Harmala alkaloids, which was enough. However, since then either due to tolerance or due to weight gain, he's noted he needs higher doses of Harmala to keep the trip going. Otherwise the trip fades within an hour, and drinking more Acacia tea does nothing.

During this, however, the rabbit's noticed something peculiar. Though the pretty colors and complex effects that DMT causes fade, the rabbit continues to hallucinate but it's 'dark'. Aka things may still wave, breathe, what have you...but it's like the vibrance has been sucked out of it. It's not very strong, but it's certainly there. It's very strange!

I assume that this is the result of N-methyltryptamine. However, afaik NMT is not active either without an MAOI, so why would DMT break down so readily, but not NMT? Maybe the rabbit MAO is more adept at breaking down DMT than NMT?

(Just to be clear, increasing the Harmala dose -does- fix the overall issue. So I'm not asking about that.)

 

[Animistic]

That's interesting, I've found the opposite. Especially when drinking frequently, I need less harmalas. You say you've drunk acacia/harmala quite a lot but I am curious if this is a new lot of bark. Also how old is the acacia tea? I've noticed that the acacia tea can lose potency after a year.

 

[kerelsk]

I've been microdosing harmalas for a few weeks now, mostly rue alks, and they are definitely very strangely psychedelic. Even though you might not be getting a lot of tryptamines through your gut, those harmalas will definitely keep you mildly "tripping" in some manner.

It feels like a slow-motion psychedelic sometimes to me :lol:
insights slowly unravel through the day, almost like a series of dream sequences where a great teaching is being untold before you
Certainly there's some extra visual activity, colors are more vibrant but not outstanding, darkened rooms have waviness, my usual visual hypnagogia takes on a more apparent feel (air in front of people's mouths tends to have more waviness if that's familiar)...

The most intense and interesting effect is this heightened spiritual awareness, which is hard to explain, but goes along with the "dreamy/magical" nature of reality with the harmalas

I have gotten pretty intense visual patterning in the state right before sleep, seemingly serotonin-pathway since it's so close to traditional "tripping".

I'm thinking that you're still feeling the effects of the harmalas after the DMT wears off

 

[Rabbit]

TheAwakening:
Nah, it's the same bark he's had for a while. Usually it sits for no longer than a week after being prepared, and he tells me it's plenty potent. Increasing the Harmala dosage on the most recent voyage led to a considerably long, full visual experience for my rabbit with the same bark.

kerelsk:
I don't doubt that it can be Harmala, but he says it definitely still feels like a tryptamine. He's used Harmala on its own at those doses, and while it tends to affect his sensory perception and cause enhanced pareidolia, this is almost like somebody just turned the lights off on the DMT.

I do know it has some strange psychedelic qualities all of its own though, so perhaps it is that. Or perhaps NMT is metabolized more slowly by MAO. Or perhaps it's residual DMT. Or perhaps something else in the bark plays a role. (I've actually heard A. Confusa is active to some extent without an MAOI)

Either way, the pharmacology of all this gets quite complex and maybe there isn't a good answer. But I wanted to share his experience with you all

 

[obliguhl]

Sounds like normal harmala effects to me ?

 

[rOm]

From the description of your experience, it does sound like harmalas psychoactive effect to me too.

I'd suggest you do harmalas only experiments to get to know better the effects harmalas has. It can get pretty visuals at the right doses.

 

[kerelsk]

Rabbit, come to think of it, yesterday morning I took a sip of my Rue + A. confusa brew, and last night had a few mgs of harmala extract under the tongue.

The brew, although not enough to cause total MAO inhibition, did seem to allow through a little more tryptamine something. The brew definitely gives me a different vibration. If anyone else is interested I suggest some more try it, and opinions grow. I'm going to try it out more, but I wouldn't be surprised if a very small portion of the tryptamines make it through your gut.

But also, it's exactly as Rabbit says, when the level of harmalas isn't enough it's not very 'active' in content, but definitely more than rue alone. Add a little more harmala and the confusa starts exploding in your face

 

[tregar]

Hi Rabbit, in an effort to explain why you may be seeing 1 hour or so of activity: according to Dr. Callaway, the thh in caapi may effectively double the half-life of dmt before it gets zapped by the mitrochondria in the brain. Since there is no thh in harmala (only in caapi) this doubling of the half-life may not happen, hence why caapi + leaf lasts a good 4 hours (with 90 minutes of very strong activity)....and very long periods of afterglow beyond the 4 hours. Keep in mind this is only a theory, but this mild reuptake blocking of serotonin (and hence dmt when it is in the synapases) is a property also common to LSD and mescaline, both having very strong reuptake blocking properties, this is a result of their strong targeting of 5-ht1a receptors in the brain, which make up over 80% of brain 5-ht receptors. However, would not personally recommend any barks with caapi in theory due to the hidden other low-level yet strong maoi-like components in the bark which do not exist with chacruna, hence the possible problematic negative interactions that could result at higher levels, which explains why only chacruna and chaliponga are used traditionally with caapi and Shaman's have not used barks with it.

 

[universecannon]

Sounds like normal harmala effects to me ?

Yes, and higher doses in the dark can lead to bizarre OBEs, vision trances, and branching thought trees

 

[obliguhl]

Yes, and higher doses in the dark can lead to bizarre OBEs, vision trances, and branching thought trees

One of the reasons i'm always very adament about the fact that ayahuasca is, first and foremost harmalas. The Idea that they merely "activate" DMT is an idea propagated even by the scientific communty, which is a shame.

 

[Intezam]

... try not use extracted alks (rue pharma) but use (long boil) tea if you are using rue. And don't be stingy. It doesn't taste so bad and it doesn't cause nausea if taken without spice.

Tregar's theory is not really true, rue (p.harmala) does have THH, it just has less. But you can increase the THH by boiling longer (whole day) with some vinegar, ascorbic acid for each wash AND fresh green leaves as a magnesium source, then AND (basil...etc) to the final reduction. That will increase the amount of THH.

We think (theory) the reason why THH increases in trad. boiled ayahuasca with boiling is:

1. Presence of reduction agents in amazonian water (oxalic acid, red soil....etc)
2. Magnesium from the chacruna leaves (boiled together with the vine)
3. Aluminum pot used (often)
4. Other 'green' admixtures

The rue tea has two additional harmala alks: Harmane and up to 3.9% Harmalol which adds a wonderful tobacco like sharp crispy thinking dimension to the rue tea (minus the poison nicotine). These will not crash out during tao of rue..etc. These are also found in caapi but at a lower rate.

The only reasons we would think of avoiding rue tea would be either pregnancy or uterine cramps due to the quinazolines present.

Anyways, we have had 2nd helpings of rue tea when we felt the presence of Dūraoša starting to fade....

 

[tregar]

Intezam said:

Tregar's theory is not really true, rue (p.harmala) does have THH, it just has less.

As pointed out above, it is not my theory, it's Dr. Callaway's theory (on possible extension of chacruna actives half-life levels via thh) see Dr. Callaway's statement last page of attached document #3 below. However, do believe Callaway was on to something, as last week in dreams using 2 seperate brews of caapi however in same day, both brews spaced out by 5 hours, with 35 grams of leaf taken only with the 2nd brew, did experience a 6 hour long experience, as can attest that the levels of thh in the caapi brews were additive and with a 10 hour half life, did indeed extend the life of caapi+leaf journey by at least 2 hours beyond the normal 4 hours, not something do very often, but it was one of the best experiences to date. Description: 1st 90 minutes strong, next 2 hours relaxed low-moderate activity, next 2 hours still relaxed low-moderate activity which is normally non-existent had only 1 caapi brew been prepared. High resolution detailed CEV's were still fluorescent and brightly colored during the last 2 hours...whereas normally there would be no visions during the 5th and 6th hours, only an afterglow instead.

Unfortunately, rue has been found to contain less than 1% thh (see first attached document, very tiny peak on figure 2, not theoretical but a research finding) but like Intezam said, you can most likely increase the levels by boiling it for very long periods, although there have been no studies done on this...however, Dr. Callaway does also touch on this topic, see last 2 pages of document #3 entitled "Callaway-decoctions document".

* 1st attached document found harmine 4.3%, harmaline 5.6%, tetrahydroharmine 0.1% in peganum harmala.
* 2nd attached document figures 1 & 3 reveal thh levels in caapi can in some instances reach the same levels as harmine within the plant....but are more closer to a 1:5 level.
* 3rd attached document reveals however that brews prepared by the vegetals averaged nearly equal amounts of thh & harmine, whereas the levels from the plants themselves are more at a 1:5 ratio as Dr. Callaway states on page 4.

3rd attached document, page 4:

In situ production of THH...the average ratio of THH to harmine in the vegetals (brews prepared by the Shuar Indians, UDV, Santo Daime) were consistently near 1:1 from all sources (Table 2) while the ratio was closer to 1:5 in a large survey of source plant material [B. caapi: see attached document 2 entitled Callaway-Plants]

 

[roninsina]

... try not use extracted alks (rue pharma) but use (long boil) tea if you are using rue. And don't be stingy. It doesn't taste so bad and it doesn't cause nausea if taken without spice.


The rue tea has two additional harmala alks: Harmane and up to 3.9% Harmalol which adds a wonderful tobacco like sharp crispy thinking dimension to the rue tea (minus the poison nicotine). These will not crash out during tao of rue..etc. These are also found in caapi but at a lower rate.

:thumb_up: Thanks again, Intezam!