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My concerns regarding entheogens, especially DMT

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Ugarit

Rising Star
I have been poking around for a while. What seems most concerning about hyperspace is the involuntary surgery and implantations that people describe getting. It seems that people even describe implants, if not surgery, on other entheogens as well.

Are there risks of surgery/implants with psilocybin?

Do energy cleansing rituals, etc. really offer any protection?

Can anyone shed any more light on this beyond what has already been discussed?
 
An interesting topic: The interaction of "other worldy" beings with our materialistic world during such psychedelic journeys.

I think this is a highly controversial topic, strongly dependent on the personal belief system.
And certainly no POV can be proven.

If you read e.g. Oroc's book or Pinchbeck's book, there are certainly some described incidents which wouldn't fit a materialistic world view anymore.

I could now start to explain my POV, but IMHO it has no foundation, as it would be like a blind talking about what he sees.
 
For one, when taking the intrusions serious, are these not happening right now outside your field of awareness? If I look at my own and others behaviors, some manipulations happen all the time.
Are you otherwise always the master of your stings?
Maybe it's the system as it is, or just an uber dream token serious, or a mix?

Would not seeing/knowing (meaning not tripping) disable their powers, if they had any?
Would the trip be the only way for them, to enter your system?
That doesn't make them looking powerful isn't it?
If they indeed do what they appear to do, is it always contra productive for you?

I'd like to think beyond all those levels of concern and notice that you are all that, everything of it, be it holy, nasty, good or bad, bliss or fear, ... a state where it doesn't matter much anymore. I'm not always there, but once is enough actually to not worry overly. I still like to prepare set-setting though.

You might find these interesting regarding entities doing stuff on you:
Shaolin said:
[PDF] Moving into the Sacred World of DMT [Entheogen Review, Volume X, Number 2, Equinox, 2001]
[PDF] Just a Wee Bit More about DMT [Entheogen Review, Volume X, Number 2, Summer Solstice, 2001]
Click to expand...
 
Jees said:
For one, when taking the intrusions serious, are these not happening right now outside your field of awareness? If I look at my own and others behaviors, some manipulations happen all the time.
Are you otherwise always the master of your stings?
Maybe it's the system as it is, or just an uber dream token serious, or a mix?

Would not seeing/knowing (meaning not tripping) disable their powers, if they had any?
Would the trip be the only way for them, to enter your system?
That doesn't make them looking powerful isn't it?
If they indeed do what they appear to do, is it always contra productive for you?

I'd like to think beyond all those levels of concern and notice that you are all that, everything of it, be it holy, nasty, good or bad, bliss or fear, ... a state where it doesn't matter much anymore. I'm not always there, but once is enough actually to not worry overly. I still like to prepare set-setting though.

You might find these interesting regarding entities doing stuff on you:
Shaolin said:
[PDF] Moving into the Sacred World of DMT [Entheogen Review, Volume X, Number 2, Equinox, 2001]
[PDF] Just a Wee Bit More about DMT [Entheogen Review, Volume X, Number 2, Summer Solstice, 2001]
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

For one, when taking the intrusions serious, are these not happening right now outside your field of awareness?

This is a good point.

I'm sure that there are positive surgeries/implants, however, there could very well be negative manipulations as well.

As the first responder mentioned, this discussion is contingent upon one's worldview. I am coming from the perspective that some of what happens while under the influence of DMT is external to the mind as conceived of in consensus reality. I am basing this perspective on the synchronicities in consensus reality that users have reported. Although some might disagree, this is my worldview in relation to this topic.

As to whether people are always subject to surgery/implants, I would think that perhaps people are more susceptible while under the influence of DMT. If this were not the case, why would entities wait until a user is in an altered state of consciousness before performing the surgery? Why wouldn't the surgery be performed at any other time during the person's life?

There is a difference between the DMT experience of hyperspace and consensus reality. Perhaps this difference influences the degree to which external entities/forces can interact with people.
 
I have no personal or direct experience with these things, but I would point out that at least in this world surgery is almost always done for good reasons, and it is frequently a life-saving or life-improving thing. It can be traumatic in the moment, but is sometimes necessary.

Whether or not this is true of hyperspace surgery that has been described? It is difficult to know.
 
Thanks for the reply. Respectfully, I'd disagree regarding the motives for surgery. I would say that the result of surgery is meant to be beneficial for someone, but not necessarily the being receiving the surgery. When people go out of their way to have surgery done, the purpose is to improve the functioning of the one receiving the surgery. However, there are other forms of surgery. Animals and enslaved humans are/were often castrated for the benefit of the owner, not the animal/slave. People have been surgically lobotomized to keep them docile.

As for tags, in our world, animals are implanted for several reasons. Often animals (bears, for instance) that wander out of their natural environments and into human settlements are tagged. Perhaps a human entering into hyperspace is an analogous occurrence. Wild animals are sought out and tagged to monitor their behavior. Farmed animals are tagged as well. The most positive instance of tagging I can think of is that which is done with house pets.
 
It seems that you are ascribing malevolent intent instead of loving kindness to the entities in this case, does this more closely match your experiences? I don't have answers here, only questions, respectful disagreement is not a problem at all :)
 
I have no first hand experience. On the one hand, DMT, psilocybin, etc. seem to offer tremendous possibilities for healing and growth. On the other, people have described some pretty negative experiences. I would say that the way I interpret the experiences of those that have described forced surgery, etc., is one of malevolence rather than loving kindness.

In the DMT realm people seem to describe beings as either neutral, helpful, harmful or harmful while presenting an illusion of being helpful. From the perspective of a hyperspace virgin, I'm trying to determine whether the risks of hyperspace can be lessened/eliminated.

Some have stated that attitude/set, setting, cleansing rituals, etc. entirely determine the trajectory of the DMT experience. Others have said that profound "psychic" injury is possible as a result of attack, regardless of what precautions are taken.

I've found topics regarding this on the nexus, but there seem to be as many opinions as users. Frankly, I don't know what to think.
 
tatt said:
The nick sand articles should [imo] be prerequisite for working with dmt.
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Interesting, and thanks for sharing! I don't know if I agree with everything in the two articles, but I am glad to have read them. In the second article he describes three levels, but only describes the first and second. Are there any other writings of his that go into the third level as well?
 
nonononono said:
tatt said:
The nick sand articles should [imo] be prerequisite for working with dmt.
Click to expand...

Interesting, and thanks for sharing! I don't know if I agree with everything in the two articles, but I am glad to have read them. In the second article he describes three levels, but only describes the first and second. Are there any other writings of his that go into the third level as well?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with everything he says within the articles, though much of what he says I've experienced firsthand and can definitely resonate with. Also I'm pretty sure those are the only two articles.

Yeah, the levels he describe I think were more for the sake of convenience and plotting waypoints/sign posts based on what he's experienced. Personally I've never experience distinct 'levels', though I've experienced distinct transitions, but even then those could easily lead into infinity imho.
 
tatt said:
nonononono said:
tatt said:
The nick sand articles should [imo] be prerequisite for working with dmt.
Click to expand...

Interesting, and thanks for sharing! I don't know if I agree with everything in the two articles, but I am glad to have read them. In the second article he describes three levels, but only describes the first and second. Are there any other writings of his that go into the third level as well?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with everything he says within the articles, though much of what he says I've experienced firsthand and can definitely resonate with. Also I'm pretty sure those are the only two articles.

Yeah, the levels he describe I think were more for the sake of convenience and plotting waypoints/sign posts based on what he's experienced. Personally I've never experience distinct 'levels', though I've experienced distinct transitions, but even then those could easily lead into infinity imho.
Click to expand...

Aside from the author's conception of discrete levels, what else do you disagree with?

When I first started reading about DMT, accounts like those presented in the articles are what I came across. At first, it was my impression that DMT allowed unity with a deeper self. Later, I thought that perhaps DMT offers a link to the devine. Now, I wonder if it additionally offers a gateway to REAL entities that can harm people irreversibly. The opportunity to heal and learn sounds great, but the risk of a "soul mutilation" that will be with someone for their entire Earthly life sounds like a pretty big risk. I really don't know what to think about the "spiritual" safety of DMT.
 
Ugarit, i think you're overexaggerating a tad. I personally do not believe in demons or entities because i have yet to experience them even though i'm very experienced with oral DMT and Harmalas, and have taken oral DMT with Moclobemide, and have smoked Changa. Even though i haven't experienced them though, i think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol. If having some spiritual protection makes you feel safer, by all means, have at it, but i highly highly doubt DMT can open up a gateway to some dark demonic realm and allow demons to latch on to you and destroy your life, like demons are just waiting for naive poor souls to attack. This attitude seems to be common with Christian imprinting/indoctrination. I personally think you're more likely to encounter negative energies/bad juju from other Human beings rather than from some interdimensional being/entity that may or may not actually exist.
 
SS I feel being much on your page, especially since Nick Sand's articles. I do feel safe as a whole whatever presents timely.

Yet a spice inflicted psychological trauma/imprint/existential-shake, also unrealistic ones for most, can inflict mental deterioration in certain people, vulnerable people mostly. It's not for nothing that they say: "It is not compatible with everyone." So I am always prudent. I've seen people going south by too much smoking pot for that matter.

So if something is exaggerating or not depends much on individual imho, but I do feel personally much like you SS and we should say out loud what we think. I keep finding set/setting important, caring the pre-orientation or mind/emotional pre-set.
 
Jees good points as always.

ShamensStamen said:
Ugarit, i think you're overexaggerating a tad. I think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol. If having some spiritual protection makes you feel safer, by all means, have at it, but i highly highly doubt DMT can open up a gateway to some dark demonic realm and allow demons to latch on to you and destroy your life, like demons are just waiting for naive poor souls to attack. This attitude seems to be common with Christian imprinting/indoctrination. I personally think you're more likely to encounter negative energies/bad juju from other Human beings rather than from some interdimensional being/entity that may or may not actually exist.
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This also hits a few points I agree on ^
 
i think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol.
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No offense. But IMHO this statement is ridiculous. As I said in the beginning: Noone knows. Here you are just projecting your truth (worldview) onto others and IMHO with quite an arrogant touch by mocking others viewpoints. (sorry for being harsh, and nothing personal, I really like you, but I just had the feeling to have to put this straight)

It's kinda like going to shaman, and laughing straight in his face about all he believes in...just because this isn't compatible with your truth.

Fact is: His standpoint can be as true or false as yours.
 
I now also observe there is a dual tone in SS's post:
...Ugarit, i think you're overexaggerating a tad...
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vs
...i think it's quite ridiculous...
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Personally I wouldn't call any view ridiculous and settle for "exaggerating risks".
There are also risks involved on missing out on agents that potentially lead to more evolution :?:

Thanks tatt for your confirmation, I can see a converging somewhere of what seems to make most sense for many, it's not as cluttered, like an intuitive righteous call which feels like a chord being struck when Nick puts it into words. With the biggest risk being not in the right set/setting (or overall conditions in general) to embark.
:thumb_up:
 
Aum_Shanti said:
i think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol.
Click to expand...

No offense. But IMHO this statement is ridiculous. As I said in the beginning: Noone knows. Here you are just projecting your truth (worldview) onto others and IMHO with quite an arrogant touch by mocking others viewpoints. (sorry for being harsh, and nothing personal, I really like you, but I just had the feeling to have to put this straight)

It's kinda like going to shaman, and laughing straight in his face about all he believes in...just because this isn't compatible with your truth.

Fact is: His standpoint can be as true or false as yours.
Click to expand...

The minute i experience/witness something like this, then i'll believe. But until i'm given even a shred of personal evidence, then i'm sorry i just don't understand why someone would be scared of the thought of some stupid demons or interdimensional beings. I'm of a more scientific mindset, and i don't scare too easily, i like to use some skepticism and try to figure things out, and i've taken Aya/Pharma way too many times to count and have never not once encountered any negative being/entity or demon.

I'm not wanting to draw conclusions too early (especially without personally experiencing/witnessing a demon/entity), but i highly doubt such a thing actually exists and i think people are wussies for being afraid of demons lol. Which btw fear is the main thing demons are supposed to feed on, so the more you fear the possibility of them, the more power/control they have over you. I say just do your thing and if you feel like you need some spiritual protection then have at it.

But i've seen too many ridiculous and stupid posts, especially in youtube videos, especially from naive and brainwashed Christians who are convinced Ayahuasca is evil/demonic and nothing good can come out of it and that Jesus is the only way. It pisses me off and annoys me to no end. People need to start being more scientific and actually investigating things and trying to figure things out, not blindly believing in the possibility of demons. And so what if demons exist? Just handle them and move on, go all Constantine on their ass, it's what i'd do. I ain't afraid of no ghost, haha.

And btw i wasn't mocking, i'm just annoyed at people's stupidity and gullibility. The minute someone starts getting attacked/harmed by a demon, record it and send me some videos, or let me come on by to investigate. But until i personally see/witness it, i'm not gonna put much thought into it.

Besides, DMT isn't all that different, effects/mechanics-wise from other Psychedelics, and i also don't hear many people who take other Psychedelics talking about demons attacking people and such. I think it's really ridiculous to think DMT is somehow special and different from the rest and will open you up to spiritual attacks/harm. If it did, i probably would've noticed by now after having taken it orally so many times.
 
Ugarit said:
I have no first hand experience.
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Also, this ^^^^

If you don't have any first hand experience, it's best not to jump to conclusions and think the worst. You don't know jack unless you have a good bit of direct experience. And by good bit i don't mean just a few experiences, i mean you've really dove in and seen what this stuff is truly capable of. Stop reading what others have to say, and just take the plunge yourself, then you'll see first hand what this stuff can and can't do, for you. Until then, nothing you say/think holds any ground, imo, without having your own experience. It also annoys me that people think they know what they're talking about when they have no personal experience.
 
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